Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

People telling me not to buy a Red. Why?

jordan levy said:
well, the first problem is that you are taking the advice from someone that has a lumix and someone that calls them self a dp and owns a c300..
Click to expand...

Seriously. You are trashing people for the tools they own? What does that make an ASC member who owns an older Nikon and an iPhone?

Look, I don't consider myself a DP, or any other title you want to associate with a job. I'm just some random person on the Internet. So take my words with a grain of salt.... In my little world, I like to choose the best tool for the job at hand within the given budget. Might be an Alexa, might be a GoPro. Truth is, no camera is perfect for every job.

Something else to consider.... Camera technology has progressed to the point in 2016 that if you can't make pretty pictures with almost any modern camera, then it's not the cameras fault.

All the best!

Dave
 
Raj, I totally understand and feel your predicament.

I have been surrounded by people who told me not to buy equipment...I heard it all the time. Five years later...now that I direct and work on set for a living...those voices have died down.

I highly recommend you read a book called "The Artist Way". Its short, an easy read, and covers most of the feedback you may be getting.

In a nutshell, by buying a camera - any camera - you're starting down a road where you are investing in YOURSELF. And in your choices.

A DP or Director who owns their own equipment has a lot more freedom to explore, learn, grow and pick their projects than one who has to rent every time.

Trust me - most of my friends who own equipment have been able to take advantage of many more opportunities...than those who didn't.

And yes, buying gear is a risk...but that's what being a creative is all about. You take risks. You make mistakes. But you move forward. Like a shark, you keep moving forward, being afraid to stand still.

And it doesn't have to be RED. It can be any camera. Just own it. Make it yours. And let if define your work. Until you get another camera, and so on.

Best of luck.
 
Last edited:
sorry i guess im dating myself and the lines have been blurred, in my day their were directors of photography that worked professionally in the film industry and then their were videographers that worked professionally with more of a video camera. in my circle there are no DPs that use canon video cameras. i actually still shoot film on many of my projects and only an alexa or red camera have become acceptable. i have never been asked to use or even seen a c300 in person. regardless it seems that my advice was all agreeable with the person that posted the question and i hope it helped. i apologize and didnt mean to offend anyone.
 
David W. Jones said:
My first camera was a Quaker Oatmeal box pinhole camera. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
mine was a bolex, then an arri 2C and i dreamed of being able to have an arri III one day.
its sort of what uber did, i also dreamed of having a chauffeur to drive me everywhere, now its an app!
 
Jordan, I hear what you're saying. The thing is, there are people doing incredible work with cameras other than RED and Alexa and they are getting paid professionally as cinematographers. Whereas I own a Red but would never refer to myself as a DP. Same old story as it's always been. Cream rises to the top. I'd rather pay a DP for their skills to light, compose, work well with other departments, etc. It just so happens, I'd prefer to film on Red or Alexa but if a DP gave me a good reason to shoot on another camera I'd be open to it.

I agree with what Nick said about owning cameras. The early days of RED were different. There was money to be made as an early adopter. Less saturated market for 4K. I invested in RED orimarily for using in my own production work. It just so happened there was demand for rentals and support services. It helped pay for the camera. I estimate that because I didn't offer it as a rental unless I went out with it that I turned down at least $10-15k in income and another $20-30K that probably could have been made with a little marketing and willingness to rent out to others. There's of course maintenance that goes along with that too. So not all profit but still, I would say things are much tougher these days if you are looking for rental income. Saturated market. You need solid client contacts. And you'll be up against a more volatile market where people will be far more willing to undercut you. However, if rental us not your primary goal or you already have the client base, then it could be a sound investment. And as Nick said, if it allows you to invest in yourself as an artist, that's not bad either - as long as you don't go broke in the process. :-)

Honestly, there has never been a better time to be a filmmaker. One could argue there have been better times to make a goid living doing it but the freedom filmmakers have now is unprecedented. If I wanted to, I could shoot a film on an iphone 6 and with some careful lighting, attention to sound, some production design and decent actors pull off what was very difficult for struggling filmmakers 20 years ago. Easy to take for granted. And why there's no excuses left when it comes to making films as an artist. Again, business side is another beast altogether but nothing stands in a filmmakers way now in terms of getting an image recorded.
 
David W. Jones said:
Seriously. You are trashing people for the tools they own? What does that make an ASC member who owns an older Nikon and an iPhone?

Look, I don't consider myself a DP, or any other title you want to associate with a job. I'm just some random person on the Internet. So take my words with a grain of salt.... In my little world, I like to choose the best tool for the job at hand within the given budget. Might be an Alexa, might be a GoPro. Truth is, no camera is perfect for every job.

Something else to consider.... Camera technology has progressed to the point in 2016 that if you can't make pretty pictures with almost any modern camera, then it's not the cameras fault.

All the best!

Dave
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
David W. Jones said:
Seriously. You are trashing people for the tools they own? What does that make an ASC member who owns an older Nikon and an iPhone?

Look, I don't consider myself a DP, or any other title you want to associate with a job. I'm just some random person on the Internet. So take my words with a grain of salt.... In my little world, I like to choose the best tool for the job at hand within the given budget. Might be an Alexa, might be a GoPro. Truth is, no camera is perfect for every job.

Something else to consider.... Camera technology has progressed to the point in 2016 that if you can't make pretty pictures with almost any modern camera, then it's not the cameras fault.

All the best!

Dave
Click to expand...

Such good stuff in the last comment from Dave it is worth quoting again.

Anyway, back to answer Raj's question:
From the sounds of it you have very very limited background in hands on filmmaking, correct? And this would be the first "serious" camera purchase by you? And this will not be a commercial money making project?

If so I'd suggest getting a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera (it is like a BMPCC v2.0, fantastic!) or a secondhand Sony FS700 or PMW-F3.

Although you did mention we don't know your financial situation... sure, if you're a billionaire, ignore this, and go get yourself an Arri Alexa instead!

But probably you're somewhere less than that.

Even if you had a million dollars in the bank I would not recommend buying a new RED in what I think is your situation is, as there is so much ahead of you still to be learned about filmmaking, which can be done on all sorts of cameras! Plus filmmaking is a very very expensive business, even if you got a "cheap" Sony FS5 or Sony FS7 (or a Kinefinity Terra 5K/6K for s similar cost) you'd still find your total outlay on gear and other filmmaking costs will be many many many times what the body by itself cost you.
(btw, either FS5 or FS7 are fantastic cameras!! And yes, I noticed you claimed the FS7 doesn't look filmic enough to your eye, but I reckon any midrange camera in 2017 can look fantastic when treated right. Look for instance the work done using LC709a with FS7 cameras as discussed on DVXuser and other places)

Then after using a BMMCC/F3/FS700/Terra/FS5/FS7/whatever, you can upgrade in a couple of years or so into the future to a RED Weapon just as the old owners are passing on theirs for a bargain price to instead get the next latest RED offering (however... you might not want to upgrade, and stick with what you'd be using for the past couple of years for another year or two! As they're that good).


Anyway... all this discussion about other cameras is a bit moot, as I see you've already ordered a Sony A7s mk2? I think you should just go ahead and shoot with that as your main camera. It is a fantastic starting point! Better than most of us on this forum started with, it won't be the camera that is holding you back that is for sure!
 
I think one factor that people overlook is how having a camera on-hand to shoot/play/experiment with every day makes it so much easier to get the most out of that camera.

I've only had my Scarlet-X for a couple of months but I've already been able to figure out so much about getting the best out of it that would have taken me years if the only contact I had with it was on the days it was rented for me to prep/shoot with.
 
David Peterson said:
Such good stuff in the last comment from Dave it is worth quoting again.


Anyway... all this discussion about other cameras is a bit moot, as I see you've already ordered a Sony A7s mk2? I think you should just go ahead and shoot with that as your main camera. It is a fantastic starting point! Better than most of us on this forum started with, it won't be the camera that is holding you back that is for sure!
Click to expand...


I ordered the Sony A7s II as my B camera. The A7S II has rolling shutter problems and 8 bit color. I will be getting the Scarlet-W. I didn't start this thread really looking for advice on which camera to get. I'm getting the Red. I was asking *why* people are telling me not to get the Red. I think understand that better now.


1) I think part of it is people think I am too much of an amature to get this professsional grade equipment. I would maybe take that in some kind of a personal way, but you haven't seen my work. you are just basing that on the fact that I don't make my living in the film industry.


2) I am realizing that this is a field where traditionally people worked their way up from Production Assistant to Second AC, to First AC, then to DP. This would take something like 5 years. I think there is resentment to see people buying expensive gear flooding the field with new people all competing for a few jobs.


3) I think a good chunk of people have the attitude of commercial artists that the gear *must* pay for itself.




As for your other points...


Luts like the LC709a do nothing to address the motion cadence issue you see on all this Sony FS7 footage. I've looked at it. If you think the FS5 or FS7 are fantastic cameras then you are free to shoot on them. I don't share tha opinion.


I've looked at used Red gear. Most of it is not that great of a deal. At least the prices that they are being listed at.


Tom Dowler said:
I think one factor that people overlook is how having a camera on-hand to shoot/play/experiment with every day makes it so much easier to get the most out of that camera.


I've only had my Scarlet-X for a couple of months but I've already been able to figure out so much about getting the best out of it that would have taken me years if the only contact I had with it was on the days it was rented for me to prep/shoot with.
Click to expand...


This is the main reason, I am buying the camera. Thank you for saying this.


I have rented gear before and you never get the same thing twice. There is always some glitch. You take a one day shoot and it turns into 2 days with all the time picking up gear and returning it. Plus the cost or renting in this industry is huge. I can rent a $40,000 car for $50 / day. To rent a $40,000 Red package I am paying $400 per day. It is too expensive to learn by renting.

I've worked as a PA. I've worked on set. I'm learning much much more when I have a camera in my hand and I'm shooting.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Raj, I totally understand and feel your predicament.

I have been surrounded by people who told me not to buy equipment...I heard it all the time. Five years later...now that I direct and work on set for a living...those voices have died down.
..
Best of luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This helps a lot. I think there is some element where it makes people feel some kind of way that I am investing in myself and in my dreams. I don't feel like they are exactly hating on me, more like it just makes the uncomfortable. I think if I was spending $30,000 on a new car, or to go back to school, or to buy stocks it would not be the same. There is something about it being a creative enterprise. I will check out that book you suggest too.
 
Raj Dye said:
Thanks. This helps a lot. I think there is some element where it makes people feel some kind of way that I am investing in myself and in my dreams. I don't feel like they are exactly hating on me, more like it just makes the uncomfortable. I think if I was spending $30,000 on a new car, or to go back to school, or to buy stocks it would not be the same. There is something about it being a creative enterprise. I will check out that book you suggest too.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Committing to a creative field can make others uncomfortable, which is understandable. Especially if you're investing money.

But truth is...most creative fields demand a high level of technical skill, and the only way to acquire this "craft" is by access to the tools...and constantly practicing with them...

A great way todo this...is owning your own equipment...at whatever level.

Hope this helps!
 
Raj Dye said:
I think part of it is people think I am too much of an amature to get this professsional grade equipment. I would maybe take that in some kind of a personal way, but you haven't seen my work. you are just basing that on the fact that I don't make my living in the film industry.
Click to expand...

Seeing as you brought it up lets see your work.
 
Ash Worth said:
Seeing as you brought it up lets see your work.
Click to expand...

Im not sure that's necessary. The quality of one's work is not a prerequisite for owning a camera...

Being a creative is not for the faint of heart, especially when you're starting out...and criticism ideally should be solicited carefully!
 
Last edited:
Raj Dye said:
I ordered the Sony A7s II as my B camera. The A7S II has rolling shutter problems and 8 bit color. I will be getting the Scarlet-W. I didn't start this thread really looking for advice on which camera to get. I'm getting the Red. I was asking *why* people are telling me not to get the Red. I think understand that better now.


1) I think part of it is people think I am too much of an amature to get this professsional grade equipment. I would maybe take that in some kind of a personal way, but you haven't seen my work. you are just basing that on the fact that I don't make my living in the film industry.


2) I am realizing that this is a field where traditionally people worked their way up from Production Assistant to Second AC, to First AC, then to DP. This would take something like 5 years. I think there is resentment to see people buying expensive gear flooding the field with new people all competing for a few jobs.


3) I think a good chunk of people have the attitude of commercial artists that the gear *must* pay for itself.




As for your other points...


Luts like the LC709a do nothing to address the motion cadence issue you see on all this Sony FS7 footage. I've looked at it. If you think the FS5 or FS7 are fantastic cameras then you are free to shoot on them. I don't share tha opinion.


I've looked at used Red gear. Most of it is not that great of a deal. At least the prices that they are being listed at.





This is the main reason, I am buying the camera. Thank you for saying this.


I have rented gear before and you never get the same thing twice. There is always some glitch. You take a one day shoot and it turns into 2 days with all the time picking up gear and returning it. Plus the cost or renting in this industry is huge. I can rent a $40,000 car for $50 / day. To rent a $40,000 Red package I am paying $400 per day. It is too expensive to learn by renting.

I've worked as a PA. I've worked on set. I'm learning much much more when I have a camera in my hand and I'm shooting.
Click to expand...


The reality is, if you're good enough you're good enough. Age doesn't come into it. Are you an amateur? Do you pay your bills with this work? Absolutely nothing wrong with being an amateur or an enthusiast or a junior. But to be a (Big P) Professional means just that. That people engage you to do this for them. However 'good enough' on a set with other people extends way past knowing your camera and what you want stuff to look like and that's where experience helps with being (small p) professional and learning the art of working with people.

The rule I made for myself a few years ago after trying to use a Scarlet purchase as jumping off point to attracting different types of client:

Buy equipment for the clientbase you have now, not the one you wish you had. It doesn't work that way. Otherwise you'll find yourself crowbarring your gear onto every shoot whether the production can afford it or not, and it will be you taking the hit and constantly renting it out for less than you should.

If I had spent 10% of the time and money I invested in gear into investing in networking and making contacts I would have gotten so much farther so much faster and learned so much quicker.

Of course if you don't need it to pay for itself then ignore all of this as having the camera to hand all the time is a great learning tool.

One last thing on bashing other cameras... I have a preference for the Red r3d workflow over shooting Sony Slog and as long as you pay attention to the basics Reds are much more forgiving, but if you treat it right and work within its 'Goldilocks Zone' the FS7 is capable of great things. I've had a film making shortlists and official selections at festivals across the world for the past 15months now that was shot on FS7 with Leica Rs and Contax Zeiss and the thing people bring up most is how good it looks.
 
I would say don't buy a Chevy. Buy a Toyota or a Honda.

Everyone has a preference. Resolution, frame rate, post-production needs, dynamic range, accessory availability, client preference, and the ecosystem you enjoy are what matter. You can capture incredible images on very cheap cameras right now. Buy what you like and what makes sense for you. There is no perfect camera for every DP, every client, and every job. Rent different cameras, preferably together, play with them, play with the menus, look at the color, the shadows, the highlights. See what you prefer.
 
It seems you like the look of RED. If it makes financial sense (or that isn't really a concern) then jump in. There are easier cameras to shoot docs on. I understand your qualms with the FS7. Lots of great projects are shot with that and the C300 + C300 MK2 but if the codec or look aren't up to your liking then it's a non-starter. Other cameras that make good sense in a doc and reality setting are the F5, F55 + Varicam 35 & LT. Built in audio, ease of use. Hard to argue with that in a doc setting.
 
Raj Dye said:
I have been surrounded by people who told me not to buy equipment...I heard it all the time. Five years later...now that I direct and work on set for a living...those voices have died down..
Click to expand...

This is also my story. I buy lots of equipment and people don't complain as much anymore and I don't surround myself with those people anymore either :)

I think one lesson I learned is, will you use the equipment enough?
This is really the most important, what you want to avoid is buying the camera and then you shoot with it for a few weeks and then you don't have time to use it for another year or two.
As long as you love it, you use it and you can afford it its probably a good idea to buy it.
If you own equipment you will become very skilled in using it with time, renting will rarely give you enough time and will be costly in the long run.

I think the reality is that you should ONLY listen to people that are what you want to become. If you talk to a film maker that creates videos that looks like you want to do and he gives you the advice to not buy, maybe you should listen then, but if this is your childhood friends they rarely understand what it is you are trying to achieve and will simply give poor advice.
Good luck!

/Andreas
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top