People not getting the RED

[Björn Benckert]

I think it has a lot to do with the "red workflow" Since it's something that goes super smooth for small productions while the bigger players in the post industry and other instances along the production line are not accustomed to raw files. Alexa on the other hand did not really need a "workflow". The proress path has saved them from logistic struggle and misshaps during transcodes etc. It got fun for a little while when the alexa studio only recorded 4:3 raw onto codec recorder... we just did one of those productions, and producers and others where a bit shaken by the costs involved and the transcode times, disc usage etc. Now since a week back the alexa studio also do proress and I think that will be the format for most alexa features and people will keep on as before working without raw. But and its a big "but" the 4k projectors are coming, over here in stockolm the cinemas are projecting 2.5k files at best. They wait for thier 4k playback to come to thier barco 4k porjectors. When thats done (before the end of this year. I think any dp knowing a bit about pixels understand that upscaling does bad and downscaling improves quality.

I think a lot of people will also find that the alexa studio shooting raw is not even half the camera of an epic. 30fps is not an epic... the resolution is not an epic... No HDRx is not an epic...

Also I think an even more relevant point is, which I realize when posting the above mentioned alexa studio / codec raw project the other week is that the signal is when worked on in it's native resolution as uncompressed log to me not even comparable to a 3:1 epic clip when looking at noise ratio. The alexa studiol very much need down sampling. Not to look at but for effect work it's terrible there is a per pixel noise that becomes very visible in green screen work in a way I have not seen in 5k 3:1 epic material. I never seen this in the proress / hd alexa. I wish I had brought the epic to the set so I could do a side by side comparison it would at least for the efx oriented guys be quite a good sale point for the epic.

While sitting with the director in post I got time to explain this and that for him and show him the difference on other greens screen material and I think he got the point as he asked me for a epic rental quote for his next feature before we where finished.

So I think this "problem" has a lot to do with how we talk to people.

Im sure we all put our money on the right horse, 4k cinema is a fact, dragon will come soon. HD will be a TV format only. The alexa and alexa studio will be outdated even before the scarlets.

Think of it like this... the codec recorder cost more than an epic... even if you do not buy the "fast" codec mags.. those that do 48 fps.... that to me can not be the future.

Here is a link to that alexa studio production mentioned... I did not do the grading, think's it's terrible and did not treat our cg well... 70% of the background is cg:

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/forsakring/VALS-H264 1024x576.mov

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

Interesting point.

You're right. It is how we talk to people. Had to edit Red One footage and the director kept saying well it's the RED that doesn't look good. I'd say well your lighting options actually hurt you in what you wanted to do.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I think it has a lot to do with the "red workflow" Since it's something that goes super smooth for small productions while the bigger players in the post industry and other instances along the production line are not accustomed to raw files. Alexa on the other hand did not really need a "workflow". The proress path has saved them from logistic struggle and misshaps during transcodes etc. It got fun for a little while when the alexa studio only recorded 4:3 raw onto codec recorder... we just did one of those productions, and producers and others where a bit shaken by the costs involved and the transcode times, disc usage etc. Now since a week back the alexa studio also do proress and I think that will be the format for most alexa features and people will keep on as before working without raw. But and its a big "but" the 4k projectors are coming, over here in stockolm the cinemas are projecting 2.5k files at best. They wait for thier 4k playback to come to thier barco 4k porjectors. When thats done (before the end of this year. I think any dp knowing a bit about pixels understand that upscaling does bad and downscaling improves quality.

I think a lot of people will also find that the alexa studio shooting raw is not even half the camera of an epic. 30fps is not an epic... the resolution is not an epic... No HDRx is not an epic...

Also I think an even more relevant point is, which I realize when posting the above mentioned alexa studio / codec raw project the other week is that the signal is when worked on in it's native resolution as uncompressed log to me not even comparable to a 3:1 epic clip when looking at noise ratio. The alexa studiol very much need down sampling. Not to look at but for effect work it's terrible there is a per pixel noise that becomes very visible in green screen work in a way I have not seen in 5k 3:1 epic material. I never seen this in the proress / hd alexa. I wish I had brought the epic to the set so I could do a side by side comparison it would at least for the efx oriented guys be quite a good sale point for the epic.

While sitting with the director in post I got time to explain this and that for him and show him the difference on other greens screen material and I think he got the point as he asked me for a epic rental quote for his next feature before we where finished.

So I think this "problem" has a lot to do with how we talk to people.

Im sure we all put our money on the right horse, 4k cinema is a fact, dragon will come soon. HD will be a TV format only. The alexa and alexa studio will be outdated even before the scarlets.

Think of it like this... the codec recorder cost more than an epic... even if you do not buy the "fast" codec mags.. those that do 48 fps.... that to me can not be the future.

Here is a link to that alexa studio production mentioned... I did not do the grading, think's it's terrible and did not treat our cg well... 70% of the background is cg:

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/forsakring/VALS-H264 1024x576.mov

That CG is INCREDIBLE! Impressively realistic. Bjorn, what was the budget for the CG job? Sorry it's off topic but that was fantastic.

Back on topic:

It's the outsiders view on RED as a rebel camera company that puts a sour taste in everyones mouth. Before RED people were paying $100,000 for a 1080i F900 if they wanted high end digital. RED started the heavy affordable movement against the establishment. This establishment has been running with the same business/sales model for 100 years. Then RED comes in and offers a vastly superior camera for 1/4 the cost of an F900. Prices of cameras came way down to try to compete, film companies started losing profit, the industry was shaken. These things all lead to a negative perception from an "old boy" standpoint.

Reduser also doesn't help with the RED appeal as it's seen as a completely fanboy, non neutral, battleground for everything RED. I've also met quite a few overbearing RED owners who are insistent that RED is the best without ever using anything else (or doing tests). There are also a lot of people here who comment on cameras and equipment who have never even seen them before. Again, these all add to the negative image.

The fact that you can buy the highest quality cinema camera for $38,000 and have 120fps in 4k is a kick to the face of the other camera manufacturers. Here is a new company, only been around since 2007, and already equal to Arri who has been around for 100 years. That's revolutionary and completely unheard of. The fact that RED offers upgrade paths to users infuriates owners of other cameras and other camera companies. Envy causes lots of hate.

**If Dragon improves the Dynamic Range of the Epic/Scarlet to meet or exceed the Alexa, then that is a huge step to getting people to appreciate RED. A prores/dnxhd 4k,2k,1080p module (with the option of those resolutions and support for slow mo) for direct to edit files will make it a no brainer. The module needs to be small and attach to the back of the camera. These two things will help the image and myth about the difficult workflow as well as denounce the idea that Alexa has superior DR. Hopefully color science will improve with the Dragon as well. These are the 3 biggest reasons people argue Alexa is superior to RED (Color/Look, Dynamic Range, ProRes files for ease of workflow.)

Anyways, there are a lot of reasons people dislike RED. The truth is most of them have never shot with any of the RED cameras. People will always have opinions, and if you own a camera, an even stronger opinion. Anyways, people will eventually warm to RED, they've only been around for 5 years

 

[Brian Merlen]

The on board pro res or dnxhd recorder is by far the WORST reason to like the Alexa. When I hear that, I just want to flip out. So many third party recorders work with Red and are DIRT CHEAP to record pro res or dnxhd with! Plus shooting raw on Alexa is crazy prices. Why that camera is the "in" camera of the moment is beyond me, but I hope Dragon burns it to the ground!!!

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

The on board pro res or dnxhd recorder is by far the WORST reason to like the Alexa. When I hear that, I just want to flip out. So many third party recorders work with Red and are DIRT CHEAP to record pro res or dnxhd with! Plus shooting raw on Alexa is crazy prices. Why that camera is the "in" camera of the moment is beyond me, but I hope Dragon burns it to the ground!!!

I don't get that, the on board prores recording to SXS cards is a fantastic thing from a workflow perspective if you are used to shooting EX1 like I am.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I actually like that most people do not understand RED or the advantages with RAW it makes the competition less competitive.

 

[Matt Ryan]

The on board pro res or dnxhd recorder is by far the WORST reason to like the Alexa. When I hear that, I just want to flip out. So many third party recorders work with Red and are DIRT CHEAP to record pro res or dnxhd with! Plus shooting raw on Alexa is crazy prices. Why that camera is the "in" camera of the moment is beyond me, but I hope Dragon burns it to the ground!!!

It's a great thing having direct to edit files for a million reasons. I'd like to have 4k prores files straight from the module.

The affordable options are bulky and limited to 1080p. I don't want to mount another monitor recorder or tidbit off the camera. There already enough stuff attached in a cine setting. I'd rather attach an inch wide module that records to red mag mini's. it would be an amazing advancement for those who demand a quick turn around. This would put to end the idea that you need a red rocket to work with RED. You will get 4k prores straight from camera.

 

[Timur Civan]

We are sort of at a tipping point now though. 1 year ago I heard lots of anti red, but lately, Alexa and epic have been somewhat interchangeable, and I've had little to no friction about my epic as of late.

I had a terrible experience with the epic M two years ago. So bad that I swore off the camera for a while. Then I was forced to use them again, and fell in love. There is a lot of that. People had a bad taste in their mouths from some random experience but now they are trying it again and seeing that the waters fine....

I just talked a production out of Alexa, not because the image is better or worse, but because we are using the stedicam AR, and the Alexa with power and master primes is pushing the operators ability to do good work to the limit. The epic was a better choice. I expressed that to production, and they gladly made the switch.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Why 4k proxys? does your editing setup even support 4k screening? I find even HD as a bit sluggish for a lot of offline editing especially when there is a lot of layering, comps etc. And if your proxys are 4k then they are almost as heavy as the r3d files... explain what is the point with that?

To me it would be better if the proxies where proxies like HD proress LT or even better DNxHD so the avid guys shut up aswell.

Small proxies from a whole day shoot made in a small module using the regular mags....since I do not really like the idea of having to buy "mini mags".

also keeping proxies from the whole day on board / in camera is a good thing it gives the possibility to scroll back to match up camera angels etc without harassing the DIT...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

To quote myself from the Perception thread (sorry for the length). Here's the link to original thread. Go here

In the Dragon Update thread I briefly discussed a current commercial I'm working on where it came down to RED Epic and Alexa shooting ArriRAW. Through this process, it became obvious to me that there really is a perception problem out there when it comes to RED. In this particular case, there is clear cut reason for shooting Epic. Resolution is a key factor. Lots of post zooms will be done. The DP is not a fan of RED, but in this instance he agreed that RED was the best tool for the job. Post had some input and complained about RED workflow, but I had an answer for all of their complaints. So, all of this should have led to Epic being the camera of choice right? Nope. We're shooting Alexa, and not only that but we are shooting at 1080P ProRes 444. I am left scratching my head. What happened?From what I can ascertain, the key decision makers have had issues on RED shoots. Perhaps it was equipment failures, or perhaps there was a problem in post with the files. Regardless, someone felt so strongly about their dislike of RED that they chose the wrong tool for the job in my opinion. This got me thinking about the perception of RED out there in the various markets. I work mostly in commercials and features. From 2008 until mid 2011, a large percentage of the jobs I did were RED, starting with the RED One and then seeing the shift to Epic. But at some point in late 2011, a high percentage of the jobs I was working on were being shot with Alexa. Anyone that knows me personally or has observed my posts on Reduser and other forums knows I'm fairly objective. I like the Alexa. I don't have a problem with it at all. When it's the right tool and someone decides they want to shoot with it, I embrace their decision and do the best job I can on that job. But I am surprised at the numbers a bit. So, I'm trying to figure out what is helping Alexa to win jobs, and when I break it down in terms of technical comparisons, I can understand the attraction of certain features the Alexa has to offer. But what strikes me is the attitude towards RED and their products that I am seeing more and more of. RED is perceived by many people (producers, DPs, editors, etc) as the "bad guys". I hear some of the usual banter about cameras breaking down, AC's hating the form factor, DPs liking Alexa's handling of highlights and the overall look of the footage better. Many will tell me the Alexa is just more at home on a set where film cameras used to be. And some people have point blank told me they just don't like how RED operates. Now, when I step back and analyze everything objectively, I am able to identify some of the weaknesses in RED cameras. So I grant those flaws to those who are shunning them. But I also identify strengths, and there are many. When choosing a camera you would hope that the strengths are taken into consideration as much as the weaknesses. Same with any camera, including the Alexa. I have seen two of them break down on set, one with a heat issue (go figure, Alexas never overheat right?). These cameras are complex, computer-based systems. They are going to fail sometimes. I wouldn't tell a producer to never use an Alexa because I've seen them break down a couple of times. Now, if every shoot there was a major problem, with various camera samples, then sure that would then be a flag to raise. But in all of my years with dealing with RED cameras, I've had just a few problems that would be in the category of major troubleshooting. Some I could resolve right there on set, some a new body had to be brought in. Overall though, it's a track record that seems about what I would expect.So, what am I getting at? We love RED for being rebels, for breaking down barriers, for putting cameras into the hands of those who otherwise may never have had a chance to own a camera of such quality. And in our own, independent production worlds, often the only perception that matters is our own. However, in the bigger production world of high end commercials, features, music videos, etc. I think there is a perception problem. I think RED is trying to fix it, although I can't speak with any authority on that matter as I have no idea about what happens behind closed doors. They have some heavy-hitter filmmakers who champion them, such as Steven Soderbergh, Peter Jackson, and Ridley Scott. That is a huge accomplishment. But out in the trenches, anti-RED sentiment is strong. And while RED is perhaps responsible for some of this (some took exception to how RED came out of the gate) with their rebel attitude, I think all of us need to take some responsibility in this as well. We need to make sure projects being filmed with RED cameras run as smoothly as possible. We need to cover all of our bases, know the cameras inside and out, know how they interface with industry standard equipment, make sure all of the data is backed up with precision and workflows are clear and efficient. We need to work with post to help build the best bridge between the set and the edit room so that RED footage is not difficult to work with (which is often just due to inexperience or resistance to change) and we need to know when to draw the line between being over-the-top fan boys and being appreciative customers. I acknowledge that there are people who will never be convinced to look at RED objectively. They loathe everything about RED, especially folks who really are upset that film is going away. I think they see Alexa as Arri's only chance at survival in a timeline that was sped up dramatically by RED. So if they are forced to shoot digital, they will put their trust in the company that has supported them throughout their entire career. This is understandable to a degree. Same goes for ACs who have been using Arri gear for eons. They know what works and are resistant to change and adapting to new methods. Again, understandable. In some ways, I don't want RED to change at all because I love the attitude of "Let's set out to do the impossible". I just hope that as time goes on, the perception of RED in the big picture gets healthier. I hope that producers and editors leave the camera decisions up to the DPs. I hope for a healthy competition amongst the camera manufacturers that results in great tools for filmmakers without espionage and ugly lawsuits. I hope for a strong relationship between production and post-production so that formats don't get in the way of creativity. Perhaps in the end, what I'm hoping for is a reality that is perhaps not realistic. But one can hope right?Finally, I'd like to say that I appreciate what RED has been able to accomplish with their ambitious team, starting with Jim and his passion for cameras and optics. Obviously, without him you aren't reading this thread right now, and you certainly wouldn't own a 5K camera right now. Jim has received a lot of praise from this community, but I can imagine he has also had to deal with a lot of personal attacks and ridicule from people who wanted him to fail. I am sure it has made him stronger and want to push harder. Jarred is a unique individual. Passionate about this stuff, willing to put his ass on the line, knowing he may be stepping over the line in doing so. A man with the shortest email responses I have ever seen, but usually straight to the point. When you set out to do something that will change an industry like these guys have, you are bound to piss off a few people along the way. So, I never want to see these guys lose their passion. I simply want their cameras to be given an equal chance out there in the battlefields of production. Right now, I don't think it's always the case, and hopefully there's a way to improve that. I think Redusers are part of that solution.This is just me thinking out loud here. I'll sit back and see what others feel about this.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Why 4k proxys? does your editing setup even support 4k screening? I find even HD as a bit sluggish for a lot of offline editing especially when there is a lot of layering, comps etc. And if your proxys are 4k then they are almost as heavy as the r3d files... explain what is the point with that. To me it would be better if the proxies where proxies like HD proress LT or even better DNxHD so the avid guys shut up aswell.

Not proxy files, actual ProRes and DNxHD. I say 4K because limiting to 1080p isn't RED's philosophy. I'm not an editor but my Mac Pro can handle a 4K workflow realtime. I'm just speaking in terms of future proofing. 1080p is dying so we need the 4K prores option to secure the future. As for heavy file sizes, no one cares as long as they don't need to transcode it into an editable codec. Just saying more options and post friendly ones at that give more reasons to like RED cameras.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Not proxy files, actual ProRes and DNxHD. I say 4K because limiting to 108p isn't RED's philosophy. I'm not an editor but my Mac Pro can handle a 4K workflow realtime. I'm just speaking in terms of future proofing. 1080p is dying so we need the 4K prores option to secure the future. As for heavy file sizes, no one cares as long as they don't need to transcode it into an editable codec without a RR. Just saying more options and post friendly ones at that give more reasons to like RED cameras.

Understood. But, I for sure think that RAW is not what people have problem with, the thing is that they need to transcode before offline edit. When the edit is done I do not think the colorists mind the RAW, actually the opposite. Grading 4k proress files is even more heavy than treating the r3d's. And before 4k offline monitors are standard I find it kind of a waste of disc space to sit and offline edit in 4k. Even if you can do it on your mac it will take years before the average avid setup has a 4k screen. And for online r3d is superior to all other formats since it is providing multiple proxy / wrappers / resolutions within the source file.. that and RAW you do not have in proress.

So 4k proress files for online is no good, you want the r3d or the r3d converted into an uncompressed image sequence file like dpx.

Side note, rental clients find the RED cameras to be to much of a tech thing... DP's does not like to have to ask a camera technician if all the settings are ok, why the screen is zoomed in, whats the difference in field of view when going from 5k to 4k, etc. Alexa on the other hand is, far more, a "one button" camera. There are no questions about the field of view changing when they want higher framrates there is no transcoding, or workflow questions. So basically RED demands a bit deeper knowledge from the people shooting and working with the material.. and I find most DP's have a great difficulty being around a camera that they do not understand and know how it works in full... Great DP's on the other hand find it most interesting and starts to ask all the right questions... Also most DP's do not find the high frequent upgrades that red provide as anyting good,as they look for a standard that can replace their old film...film as a standard was fixed for over 100 years.

 

[Sergio Perez]

+1000 for 4K prores. My current laptop can exit 4K prores 4:2:2 without problems. Its the future for "backed in" codecs. This would be a clear distinction between Red's 4K philosophy and the rest, " 1080p is enough" crowd.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

In the Dragon Update thread I briefly discussed a current commercial I'm working on where it came down to RED Epic and Alexa shooting ArriRAW. Through this process, it became obvious to me that there really is a perception problem out there when it comes to RED. In this particular case, there is clear cut reason for shooting Epic. Resolution is a key factor. Lots of post zooms will be done. The DP is not a fan of RED, but in this instance he agreed that RED was the best tool for the job. Post had some input and complained about RED workflow, but I had an answer for all of their complaints. So, all of this should have led to Epic being the camera of choice right? Nope. We're shooting Alexa, and not only that but we are shooting at 1080P ProRes 444. I am left scratching my head. What happened?From what I can ascertain, the key decision makers have had issues on RED shoots. Perhaps it was equipment failures, or perhaps there was a problem in post with the files. Regardless, someone felt so strongly about their dislike of RED that they chose the wrong tool for the job in my opinion. This got me thinking about the perception of RED out there in the various markets. I work mostly in commercials and features. From 2008 until mid 2011, a large percentage of the jobs I did were RED, starting with the RED One and then seeing the shift to Epic. But at some point in late 2011, a high percentage of the jobs I was working on were being shot with Alexa. Anyone that knows me personally or has observed my posts on Reduser and other forums knows I'm fairly objective. I like the Alexa. I don't have a problem with it at all. When it's the right tool and someone decides they want to shoot with it, I embrace their decision and do the best job I can on that job. But I am surprised at the numbers a bit. So, I'm trying to figure out what is helping Alexa to win jobs, and when I break it down in terms of technical comparisons, I can understand the attraction of certain features the Alexa has to offer. But what strikes me is the attitude towards RED and their products that I am seeing more and more of. RED is perceived by many people (producers, DPs, editors, etc) as the "bad guys". I hear some of the usual banter about cameras breaking down, AC's hating the form factor, DPs liking Alexa's handling of highlights and the overall look of the footage better. Many will tell me the Alexa is just more at home on a set where film cameras used to be. And some people have point blank told me they just don't like how RED operates. Now, when I step back and analyze everything objectively, I am able to identify some of the weaknesses in RED cameras. So I grant those flaws to those who are shunning them. But I also identify strengths, and there are many. When choosing a camera you would hope that the strengths are taken into consideration as much as the weaknesses. Same with any camera, including the Alexa. I have seen two of them break down on set, one with a heat issue (go figure, Alexas never overheat right?). These cameras are complex, computer-based systems. They are going to fail sometimes. I wouldn't tell a producer to never use an Alexa because I've seen them break down a couple of times. Now, if every shoot there was a major problem, with various camera samples, then sure that would then be a flag to raise. But in all of my years with dealing with RED cameras, I've had just a few problems that would be in the category of major troubleshooting. Some I could resolve right there on set, some a new body had to be brought in. Overall though, it's a track record that seems about what I would expect.So, what am I getting at? We love RED for being rebels, for breaking down barriers, for putting cameras into the hands of those who otherwise may never have had a chance to own a camera of such quality. And in our own, independent production worlds, often the only perception that matters is our own. However, in the bigger production world of high end commercials, features, music videos, etc. I think there is a perception problem. I think RED is trying to fix it, although I can't speak with any authority on that matter as I have no idea about what happens behind closed doors. They have some heavy-hitter filmmakers who champion them, such as Steven Soderbergh, Peter Jackson, and Ridley Scott. That is a huge accomplishment. But out in the trenches, anti-RED sentiment is strong. And while RED is perhaps responsible for some of this (some took exception to how RED came out of the gate) with their rebel attitude, I think all of us need to take some responsibility in this as well. We need to make sure projects being filmed with RED cameras run as smoothly as possible. We need to cover all of our bases, know the cameras inside and out, know how they interface with industry standard equipment, make sure all of the data is backed up with precision and workflows are clear and efficient. We need to work with post to help build the best bridge between the set and the edit room so that RED footage is not difficult to work with (which is often just due to inexperience or resistance to change) and we need to know when to draw the line between being over-the-top fan boys and being appreciative customers. I acknowledge that there are people who will never be convinced to look at RED objectively. They loathe everything about RED, especially folks who really are upset that film is going away. I think they see Alexa as Arri's only chance at survival in a timeline that was sped up dramatically by RED. So if they are forced to shoot digital, they will put their trust in the company that has supported them throughout their entire career. This is understandable to a degree. Same goes for ACs who have been using Arri gear for eons. They know what works and are resistant to change and adapting to new methods. Again, understandable. In some ways, I don't want RED to change at all because I love the attitude of "Let's set out to do the impossible". I just hope that as time goes on, the perception of RED in the big picture gets healthier. I hope that producers and editors leave the camera decisions up to the DPs. I hope for a healthy competition amongst the camera manufacturers that results in great tools for filmmakers without espionage and ugly lawsuits. I hope for a strong relationship between production and post-production so that formats don't get in the way of creativity. Perhaps in the end, what I'm hoping for is a reality that is perhaps not realistic. But one can hope right?Finally, I'd like to say that I appreciate what RED has been able to accomplish with their ambitious team, starting with Jim and his passion for cameras and optics. Obviously, without him you aren't reading this thread right now, and you certainly wouldn't own a 5K camera right now. Jim has received a lot of praise from this community, but I can imagine he has also had to deal with a lot of personal attacks and ridicule from people who wanted him to fail. I am sure it has made him stronger and want to push harder. Jarred is a unique individual. Passionate about this stuff, willing to put his ass on the line, knowing he may be stepping over the line in doing so. A man with the shortest email responses I have ever seen, but usually straight to the point. When you set out to do something that will change an industry like these guys have, you are bound to piss off a few people along the way. So, I never want to see these guys lose their passion. I simply want their cameras to be given an equal chance out there in the battlefields of production. Right now, I don't think it's always the case, and hopefully there's a way to improve that. I think Redusers are part of that solution.This is just me thinking out loud here. I'll sit back and see what others feel about this.

Cliff's notes?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Understood. But, I for sure think that RAW is not what people have problem with, the thing is that they need to transcode before offline edit. When the edit is done I do not think the colorists mind the RAW, actually the opposite. Grading 4k proress files is even more heavy than treating the r3d's. And before 4k offline monitors are standard I find it kind of a waste of disc space to sit and offline edit in 4k. Even if you can do it on your mac it will take years before the average avid setup has a 4k screen. And for online r3d is superior to all other formats since it is providing multiple proxy / wrappers / resolutions within the source file.. that and RAW you do not have in proress.

So 4k proress files for online is no good, you want the r3d or the r3d converted into an uncompressed image sequence file like dpx.

Side note, rental clients find the RED cameras to be to much of a tech thing... DP's does not like to have to ask a camera technician if all the settings are ok, why the screen is zoomed in, whats the difference in field of view when going from 5k to 4k, etc. Alexa on the other hand is, far more, a "one button" camera. There are no questions about the field of view changing when they want higher framrates there is no transcoding, or workflow questions. So basically RED demands a bit deeper knowledge from the people shooting and working with the material.. and I find most DP's have a great difficulty being around a camera that they do not understand and know how it works in full... Great DP's on the other hand find it most interesting and starts to ask all the right questions... Also most DP's do not find the high frequent upgrades that red provide as anyting good,as they look for a standard that can replace their old film...film as a standard was fixed for over 100 years.

Understandable, that's why I said it needs to record 4k, 2k, and 1080p that is user selectable. But to leave out 4k would be a bad decision. If you only need 1080p then you have it and if you want 4k you have it. All options at the press of a button.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Cliff's notes?

Yeah, it's a bit long and didn't format correctly in the copy/paste. Point being, there's a perception issue when it comes to RED. In order for it to get better it will take efforts by RED, and all of us, the DP's, AC's, DITs, editors, colorists etc that are using RED technology to do our part in making sure we are doing the best we can on these jobs and educating ourselves and the people we work with to make it a good experience. I feel like RED has been making these efforts, especially recently. They are making improvements to their manufacturing process which has led to more efficient delivery of product. They have worked to get more education out into the world through training, the website, etc. There is still room for improvement but the effort is there. Over time, I suspect the overall attitude towards RED will improve. And as far as our role in all of this, I strongly feel that at some point you have to do your best to be objective. There are times when a RED is not the best camera for the job, just like the Alexa wasn't in my example above. But whatever camera you are shooting with on the day of the job, you need to embrace and do the best work you can. Extreme fanboyism whether it's RED or Arri does very little good. We can be loyal and respectful at the same time.

That's the cliff notes version.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

Yeah, it's a bit long and didn't format correctly in the copy/paste. Point being, there's a perception issue when it comes to RED. In order for it to get better it will take efforts by RED, and all of us, the DP's, AC's, DITs, editors, colorists etc that are using RED technology to do our part in making sure we are doing the best we can on these jobs and educating ourselves and the people we work with to make it a good experience. I feel like RED has been making these efforts, especially recently. They are making improvements to their manufacturing process which has led to more efficient delivery of product. They have worked to get more education out into the world through training, the website, etc. There is still room for improvement but the effort is there. Over time, I suspect the overall attitude towards RED will improve. And as far as our role in all of this, I strongly feel that at some point you have to do your best to be objective. There are times when a RED is not the best camera for the job, just like the Alexa wasn't in my example above. But whatever camera you are shooting with on the day of the job, you need to embrace and do the best work you can. Extreme fanboyism whether it's RED or Arri does very little good. We can be loyal and respectful at the same time.

That's the cliff notes version.

Agreed

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Arri set out to copy their film cameras in as many ways as possible. There is an incredible advantage to 100 years of trial and error: you learn how to design things that work "one button." You know what operators and assistants expect, because you created those expectations. In a similar way, they copied the spectral sensitivity of Kodak Vision3 film stock. All in all, they gave the old hands what they wanted, in a simple, bulletproof package.

Red chose to give you as much color, gamma, and hardware control as is technologically possible, as many ways to build and mount the camera as are feasibly possible, etc etc. The constant updating and fixing gets confusing; as I was explaining it on set once, the producer said "don't worry, I think the red one is still in beta."

All this is a ten truckloads of new information to someone who is used to lighting, checking the meter, and pressing the switch past "test" into "record."

Arri put a button for "ramp" on the Alexa body... Red has buttons with numbers and letters on it... the Arri viewfinder is an integral part of the system... the Red viewfinder comes separate.... Red mounting involves a lot of ingenuity and invention... Alexas build out much the way a film camera does...

That is really what it comes down to. One company is giving all that is possible, the other is giving what you'd expect. Plus a stop in the highlights.

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

To quote myself from the Perception thread (sorry for the length). Here's the link to original thread. Go here

Sweet Jesus man. But I think that you took the time to spell out or give a glimpse into this was great.

It's kind of like when I was talking to a professional photographer friend. He says, "I got this guy for you to meet. He's French, but loves cameras and is from New York right now." First words to me are, "What do you shoot with?" "Right now I just shot with the Red Epic and I nearly died. The fact I can digitally manipulate the sensor to the shittiest resolution and still shoot at close and turn a lighter and see it means something." He looks at me oddly. "Well the Canon C300 can do that as well." "Yeah, but you're dealing with a camera that shoots 1080p on a 4K sensor which seems like a waste of time and also the image tests have not been to the caliber we see with any other camera." This is when I am stopped and told I just insulted a Canon Representive who was trying to show people the C300.

How does this relate to Alexa vs. RED. It relates in that when someone tries to convince you RED sucks. Let's put it that way for sake of arguement. They are telling you this "camera (being any camera" is far better than the Red (one, one MX, Epic, Scarlet) because (list problem here). One I hear from Canon is well Tungsten doesn't look good or I don't like that it can't shoot well with highlights or it sucks in the nighttime. You have to ask if they ever used the camera. "No. I saw it on display at (any said event)" "I asked did you ever use it? Not if you saw i displayed." "No." is the final answer. To me that is what is at the heart of the debate. If you have not used the camera how can you judge it?

I haven't used the ALEXA so I have no lll-will to what it does. I have used many different Canon DSLRs and I am not impressed. Never used one I liked. In short, use the damn camera before you say you hate it.

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

Arri set out to copy their film cameras in as many ways as possible. There is an incredible advantage to 100 years of trial and error: you learn how to design things that work "one button." You know what operators and assistants expect, because you created those expectations. In a similar way, they copied the spectral sensitivity of Kodak Vision3 film stock. All in all, they gave the old hands what they wanted, in a simple, bulletproof package.

Red chose to give you as much color, gamma, and hardware control as is technologically possible, as many ways to build and mount the camera as are feasibly possible, etc etc. The constant updating and fixing gets confusing; as I was explaining it on set once, the producer said "don't worry, I think the red one is still in beta."

All this is a ten truckloads of new information to someone who is used to lighting, checking the meter, and pressing the switch past "test" into "record."

Arri put a button for "ramp" on the Alexa body... Red has buttons with numbers and letters on it... the Arri viewfinder is an integral part of the system... the Red viewfinder comes separate.... Red mounting involves a lot of ingenuity and invention... Alexas build out much the way a film camera does...

That is really what it comes down to. One company is giving all that is possible, the other is giving what you'd expect. Plus a stop in the highlights.

That's honestly what I hear. That is my biggest pain in the ass with any Red Camera, but in the end I will love using them more than any other.