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Panasonic's ALEXA killer?

Tom Lowe said:
Noah, I was very, very careful not to include Canon among the companies from which Jim is drinking milkshakes. As I pointed out, Canon has profited HUGELY just by simply putting out a 1080p large-format, interchangeable lens camera -- exactly the technology that Sony and Panasonic withheld for years. Only now, with Jim and Canon holding guns to either side of their heads, are Sony and Panasonic releasing this technology.
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Sorry, Tom, but you're just not making sense.

Panny/Sony were always small sensor companies and their only lens manufacturing was consumer/prosumer integrated zooms for very small sensors. Even 2/3 lenses were primarily canon/fujinon/angenieux. Sony bought minolta to get into large sensor slr bodies/lenses. Panny waited well into digital to go 4/3 and doesn't even have an aps-c.

For a long time, indies wanted nothing to do with digital. With inexpensive HD they started using 35mm adapters for awhile. Red upped the ante - but only sold 6 or 7k cameras - so obviously a trivial portion of "motion digital cameras".

Sorry to be short, but I just don't get the "other guys must suck for us to be good" thing (or that there was some vast technology withholding conspiracy).
 
From what I see, things are a bit in a state of flux, not least caused by the original R1 and its immediate impact and penetration in a lot of markets - in not untill lately in the "upper" markets, as M Most would point out.

With R1 MX and Alexa, we can look a bit into the crystal ball. Both very good, both very noiseless, both very much pointing foreward, both very good at exposing the others lackings. Sitting with both, I certainly would jave liked to put them in a can and mix them. That will be the future. That can very well be Epic, as it looks.

I really cannot for my life manage to compare the DSLRs in this context. Not because they haven't been successfull and are used for some high end productions and commercials, that is of course true. But as camerasystems they fall apart in their limits as shooting tools and flexibility in post. But I think that market will expand and better like the cinema cameras do, rapidly.

There's just so much more needed than a PL mount and S35 equivavlent sensor for the cine or high end TV use, that it's kind of strange to compare.

Of course there will be high-end stuff shot on these, as one allways like to play with new toys and take them for a ride. And it will look beautifull or not be released. But that alone is proof of nothing.

5 - 10 years from now, we will see a more conform standarisation on the high-end (I guess), with different companies offering different signalchains and focus, but with a common baseline spec for the cameras. That will NOT mean the end of invention, but that there will be more of refinement focus, than the current braking of new ground. Very similar to what we've seen in audio. But for the next few years, it's gonna be pretty gung-ho in all markets segments and a quicker turnaround on innovation than any of us dare to hope for.

Just my 2c
 
Michael Hastings said:
Sorry to be short, but I just don't get the "other guys must suck for us to be good" thing (or that there was some vast technology withholding conspiracy).
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Neither do I. Not to mention that Canon's sole motivation for developing the video mode on the 5D was in response to a request from one of their largest customers (the Associated Press) for a device that would let their photojournalists shoot motion video clips when required without having to carry a second camera. Any other use was unanticipated by them, and the vast majority of 5D and 7D sales have been to stills shooters, not indie filmmakers.
 
Again, if these companies (Sony, Panasonic) failed to see the desire for large-sensor, interchangeable-lens HD cameras, then it's simply a matter of incompetence. Obviously the first company to put out such a camera -- Canon with their 5D2 -- profited to the tune of hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars. I believe that the 5D2 has been the most successful product in the history of Canon. So how did Panasonic and Sony fail to see this coming? Are you suggesting that they knew all along they could make billions of dollars of profits if they put out a 1080p large-format, interchangeable lens cameras, but just decided, "Oh, forget that, we don't need billions in profit, because we are a 2/3" company!" I seriously doubt it.

Again, it's either massive incompetence, or some type of gambit to protect other sectors of their product line. To me, Mike Most, it doesn't matter how Canon came to add the HD feature to the 5D2. What matters is that they did, and what the result was.

Take a hard look at this new camera from Panasonic and tell me Jim Jannard had nothing to do with its evolution:

pannycam.jpg


Really?
 
Canon's reputation is primarily in high end stills with a bit of indy small sensor video (xl series). They tacked on noticeably artifacted video to their existing slr product and as I said before the Combination became a winner, but they could also easily sidestep any of the artifact criticism.

Panny/Sony are known as video companies, so harder to just toss out a substandard product. AND, other than the minolta acquisition, they really didn't have leading edge commodity level large sensor camera experience, so also not quick out of the gate.
 
Based on Tom's description of the sales of the 5d, I'd guess both Sony and Panasonic would be longing for similar sales numbers, despite 'artifact criticism,' or the rest of the ceaseless criticisms thrown at that very capable little camera (despite the many, obvious faults).

But for the main defense of his argument re Panasonic's desire to protect their market, one needs to look no further than the new firmware released for the GH1 just after the camera was hacked, allowing it to finally live up to its potential. The hackable firmware 1.32 was replaced with 1.34, never released on the web and unhackable because of this. The result, older GH1s are now selling at quite a premium, and the cams with the new firmware are being returned in droves once the hopeful buyer inserts the battery, thumbs through to see what firmware is installed, and finds a raspberry waiting from Panasonic. This is, to put it mildly, not how a company builds trust.

Indeed, it will be interesting to see if the hacked GH1s are in fact more capable than the soon-to-be-released GH-2. Thanks to the web and many willing testers out there, I'd expect those comparisons to start rolling in just hours after the camera becomes available.
 
The other thing people miss is that canon is riding the wave of being "firstest, with the mostest". They are benefitting from having an already good product dslrs, with a bonus - HD. But even most professionals aren't yet aware that as far as video, the GH1 is substantially better than any canon dslr.

And one reason Sony/pan aren't likely to agonize over larger sensor motion picture cameras is that EVERY trend is toward smaller sensors now that 4K and above with low noise, highDR is easy on 4/3 and smaller sensors. Read David mullen's comments on shallow dof on 2/3" cameras and realize that 4/3 is not even a full stop more dof than S35 - so equivalent shallow dof will be pretty easy to achieve, particularly as iso800 and higher sensors are commonplace. F2 zooms on 4/3 are smaller, cheaper and easier to make than say the f2.8 Canon L zooms. T1.3 (or less) primes are also pretty easy. There's a reason red mini primes for 2/3 are $950 and RPPs are $4500. Equivalent 4/3 glass would be somewhere in between and probably the sweet spot in terms of size/ergonomics.

Don't be surprised to see some pretty good leica glass on some 4/3 cameras.

Edit: sam jumped in 60 secs ahead with the gh1 info.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Again, if these companies (Sony, Panasonic) failed to see the desire for large-sensor, interchangeable-lens HD cameras, then it's simply a matter of incompetence. Obviously the first company to put out such a camera -- Canon with their 5D2 -- profited to the tune of hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars. I believe that the 5D2 has been the most successful product in the history of Canon. So how did Panasonic and Sony fail to see this coming? Are you suggesting that they knew all along they could make billions of dollars of profits if they put out a 1080p large-format, interchangeable lens cameras, but just decided, "Oh, forget that, we don't need billions in profit, because we are a 2/3" company!" I seriously doubt it.

Again, it's either massive incompetence, or some type of gambit to protect other sectors of their product line. To me, Mike Most, it doesn't matter how Canon came to add the HD feature to the 5D2. What matters is that they did, and what the result was.

Take a hard look at this new camera from Panasonic and tell me Jim Jannard had nothing to do with its evolution:

Really?
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Why does it have to be "incompetence" for companies like Panasonic and Sony to not want to take risks outside of their known markets?

The indie film market is really a minor consideration for a company like Sony that makes most of its money from consumer technology.

Indie films are not a billion dollar market.
 
Market size

Market size

The indie film market is really a minor consideration for a company like Sony that makes most of its money from consumer technology.
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On the surface true, but not true for a division of those corporations such as Sony Broadcast or Panasonic Broadcast.
 
Stuart English said:
On the surface true, but not true for a division of those corporations such as Sony Broadcast or Panasonic Broadcast.
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Yes, but what is the mix and sales volume? What do you suppose The annual gross is for:

Sony cinealta
Pan varicam
Red r1
Red epic

So do they abandon that and only go s35? Or do they continue to sell millions of dollars of product that neither canon or red have and figure out the best next step?

Then where do the ex1s and such fit? I have friends that sold their r1 to buy ex1s and another that uses his z1 much more than his red1 and if he could go back would probably forgo r1. Not my choice, but I understand it.
 
"But even most professionals aren't yet aware that as far as video, the GH1 is substantially better than any canon dslr."

This is only true in terms of resolution. Latitude and color both look better on the Canons to us (we shoot with both and RED).
 
Samual Murman said:
"But even most professionals aren't yet aware that as far as video, the GH1 is substantially better than any canon dslr."

This is only true in terms of resolution. Latitude and color both look better on the Canons to us (we shoot with both and RED).
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And artifacts but agreed on your other points.

My real point is that there is a major explosion and cross pollination happening between the still and motion picture sensor/electronics worlds and nothing has settled out yet at any level, so you can't make much of a judgment based on the recent sales figures or product mix quite yet.
 
"Don't be surprised to see some pretty good leica glass on some 4/3 cameras."


And Zeiss, Nikon, Canon FD you name it. We recently bought a PL mount for our hacked GH1 from a craftsman in Poland. $200 bucks and now we can use our superspeeds. Can't tell you what fun it is to have such capable glass on such a small body... that makes Panasonic's little firmware move all the more shocking. How many cameras are they not selling because of the need to protect a product hierarchy?
 
Michael Hastings said:
And one reason Sony/pan aren't likely to agonize over larger sensor motion picture cameras is that EVERY trend is toward smaller sensors now that 4K and above with low noise, highDR is easy on 4/3 and smaller sensors. Read David mullen's comments on shallow dof on 2/3" cameras and realize that 4/3 is not even a full stop more dof than S35 - so equivalent shallow dof will be pretty easy to achieve, particularly as iso800 and higher sensors are commonplace. F2 zooms on 4/3 are smaller, cheaper and easier to make than say the f2.8 Canon L zooms. T1.3 (or less) primes are also pretty easy. There's a reason red mini primes for 2/3 are $950 and RPPs are $4500. Equivalent 4/3 glass would be somewhere in between and probably the sweet spot in terms of size/ergonomics.

Don't be surprised to see some pretty good leica glass on some 4/3 cameras.
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I really like the 4/3 format. It makes more sense as a motion format than as a still format. Falls nicely between S35 and 2/3" too, with reasonably compact and fast wide range zoom lenses a possibility. There is a superb set of constant speed F2 zooms made by Olympus.

That said I will take the potential of the 2/3" Scarlet over this particular Panasonic camera for general production work. But I would dearly love to see Red make an m4/3 format 4k camera down the road with Epic level performance at a price similar to the original Red 1.
 
Over on Vimeo some of the hacked GH1 footage is very nice. If the AF100 has a newer sensor better optimized for video I think this camera has potential. Keep in mind that the current sensor in the GH1 does not line skip like the Canon DSLR's do, it scales everything to 1080/720. It's already better optimized for video than other DSLR's. The 4:3 sensor is marginally smaller than S35 and bigger than 2/3" chip cameras. Low light won't be as good as a 5D but should compete with a 7D quite easily Throw on a Ki Pro Mini for ready to edit ProRes and add some nice glass and like I said, it has potential. Zeiss just announced they will have 4/3 mounts for their compact primes.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Take a hard look at this new camera from Panasonic and tell me Jim Jannard had nothing to do with its evolution:

pannycam.jpg


Really?
Click to expand...

Well, I see an HD EVF, a HD monitor, pro I/O, large sensor and Battery included in a $6000 camera. Does that sound inspired by RED? (just joking RED masters) ;-)

I just don't get why you can't see the obvious.

Panasonic join the 4/3" system.
Panasonic make the GH1 and it is a sucess.
Panasonic listen to the big players that use their products and give the people what they want, a 4/3" system in a camcorder body.

It is just logical. No conspiracies, no idea stealing, no being pushed by RED. Just common sense, simple progression based on the new 4/3" technology they are mastering and feedback from GH1 customers.
 
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