Panasonic's ALEXA killer?

[David C]

FF35 is more demanding on lenses, however. On a 5D, the lens needs to be sharp from edge to edge, while a 7D only shoots through the center, the sharpest part of the lens. One of the main reasons why photographers started going after the uber expensive Leica 19mm and Zeiss 21mm lenses instead of the Canon 20mm.

 

[David Rasberry]

Btw I'm fully committed to epic-x and probably 645 after that, this is all just general discussion for me.

Out of curiosity anybody know what the resolution of the epic-x sensor will be at the largest that would be covered by the 4/3 diagonal?

4/3 lenses will cover 3k nicely with no problems. An m4/3 mount option with electronic lens controls would be a sweet option for Scarlet/ Epic S35shooting 3k for HD finish IMO.

 

[Bill Anderson]

As far as Indie films not being a billion dollar market is concerned: it is about to become more than that, and has had the potential since the first digital acquisition camera rolled off the assembly line, but many Co.'s failed to understand the significant difference: for the first time in movie-making history, the (very affordable) camera is the hero, not the film stock, much to the chagrin of Kodak. Imagine if a Canon had won the Oscar for Slumdog Millionaire- how do you think that would have played out in sales, not to mention Canon's new found aspirations? We'd be feeling the tremors
for the next century. But Oscar was won over by a slightly different beast, one that much of the indie and consumer market is slowly coming to grips with. This change in paradigm is difficult to exaggerate in terms of potential net worth.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Btw Re: 4/3

I'm sitting here watching gone with the wind (shot in 4/3) and It got me thinking. 4/3 would give all the dvxusers a reason to dig out those old anamorphic adapters from the dvx days.

 

[Randall Nott]

2/3" became popular because the image area was virtually the same as the telecine projection aperture for 16mm film. Those early video cameras could use the same 16mm c-mount lenses as the film cameras.
16mm film remained the mobile aquisition medium of choice until the mid 70's when relatively portable video cameras, 3/4" u-matic, and the old Ampex 1" reel to reel portable recorders made ENG and EFP viable options.

I first shot video on one of those 2/3" cameras, a Sony Portapak system with a 1/2" reel to reel recorder. The camera was about 8 lbs with a pistol grip and the recorder was in a backpack weighing about 25 lbs. I shot our high school football games in 1976 in glorious black and white. At about 320 lines of resolution, people were always amazed at how sharp the picture was.

I first saw HDTV at Pacific Bell's R&D dept in 1986. I've always been amazed that it took so long to work the bugs out; I thought they'd be everywhere by 1990. Was that the "big guys" not bothering to innovate?

I think this new Panasonic is a lovely camera. Had it come out a year and a half ago I would have been tempted. As it is, I'll wait for Scarlet.

 

[David Rasberry]

I think this new Panasonic is a lovely camera. Had it come out a year and a half ago I would have been tempted. As it is, I'll wait for Scarlet.

Yup.:thumbsup:

 

[Peter Chang]

Imagine if a Canon had won the Oscar for Slumdog Millionaire- how do you think that would have played out in sales, not to mention Canon's new found aspirations?

Technically, they kind of did!

Boyle and Anthony Dod Mantle used a Canon 1D Mark III to capture some scenes (crowd shots, Taj Mahal), undercranked.

From American Cinematographer, Dec 2008

"I started shooting little bits and bobs with that, and Danny got really excited about it," he recalls. Boyle explains, "Anthony sent a test he'd done in a hotel room, and it was just amazing - it looked like a vivid memory of something." Another advantage they discovered was that people were much more relaxed around a stills camera. "With a film camera, they would instantly say, 'You can't shoot here!'" says Boyle. But Dod Mandle was able to use the Mark III to shoot in locations where obtaining a film permit would have been a struggle, such as the inner areas of the Taj Mahal.
​

Their latest collaboration, 127 HOURS, features more SI-2K MINI work + Canon 1DMK4.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I laughed when I watched this video:

http://vimeo.com/15035188

I love how this Panasonic representative is bragging about how Panasonic is "responding to marketplace desire for large image sensors" etc. Yeah, they are finally responding to marketplace demands from about 6 years ago, when we really needed an HD camera with a large sensor and interchangeable lenses. And the only reason they are finally listening now is because they have two guns pressed against either temple -- one in Jim's hand, and the other in Canon's.

But still they are putting out a bullshit codec. Still no full frame or even APS-C. Still no fucking 60fps (only 720/60p!). Same old bullshit.

/RANT

 

[Matt W.]

I love how this Panasonic representative is bragging about how Panasonic is "responding to marketplace desire for large image sensors" etc. Yeah, they are finally responding to marketplace demands from about 6 years ago, when we really needed an HD camera with a large sensor and interchangeable lenses.
/RANT

What's strange is that when I talked with Bill Kennedy (at Panasonic) six years ago he said large bayer sensors were the (near) future. I don't know what took them so long.

I still think you're being really unfair to this camera. Of course the promo material is mostly bullshit; it's promo material. But I would kill to get my hands on one of these things. I'm still stuck using the hvx200 when I'm lucky. Otherwise dvx. For your line of work image quality may trump everything else (which is awesome), but a near-35mm sensor in a familiar camera with a codec that's already the basis of a lot of people's workflows...that's a nice combination--obviously not as forward-thinking as anything Red's doing, but we can't all afford to be forward thinking. And call me sacrilegious but I think Panasonic's cameras have nicer color rendering than Red's. Then again it falls apart fast when you grade the old codecs.

I think this is a smart product: some of the advantages of the Red, few of the disadvantages of the 5d and 7d, and a very easy transition for anyone who's using a Panasonic camera now. Studios considering replacing their hvx and hpx cameras with Reds but turned off by the vastly slower workflow (for high-volume commercial work) may have an easier to stomach alternative here, and a good one.

 

[Tom.Wong]

APS-C. Still no fucking 60fps (only 720/60p!). Same old bullshit.

/RANT

Announced specs allow for 1080p/60p. It's gonna be the only camera in the whole Panasonic professional line that can do that. While it's not a RED, or Epic, or anything else in that class of camera, in the very least it's gonna be the thing that fills the void for a lot of people in the as is volatile indie/prosumer market. RED is still light years out of a lot of filmmakers price range, af100 and even upcoming Scarlet are there to fill in those gaps. It's not the only answer, it's not the only solution, but it's joining the trend, and it's a good thing that this trend is going to continue. RED took the first step, Canon was an accident (They had no idea what putting 1080p in a 5d would spur) Now Panasonic.

Progress is slow. but it's happening, it's something to be happy about.

 

[hunterrichards]

I laughed when I watched this video:

http://vimeo.com/15035188...

I know your all about best quality Tom, me too- however, you shouldn't discredit something because is isnt the absolute pinnacle tool of our industry. This is a cheap camera that solves the majority of dslr issues we had, $6,000 is an incredible price for what you get (audio/hdsdi/1080-60p/multiple video outs/ect.). I wish it had a raw codec option too and 10,000fps- maybe even a 6x6 sensor... I would leave crop and fullframe in the dust if I had the chance and I know you would too- just because of the flexibility.

Take this one to the bank; The people we make images for dont have anywhere near the kind of minute and pixel peeping image quality standards that we have, though we should not define our standards by theirs, its important to keep in mind what they really care about.

No one watching video on their TV, Computer, or mobile device gives a f*ck what camera its shot on, what lenses were used, what codec, the post workflow... they value the content 1,000x more. Just saying- Lets start there as a base and move forward- and hey, if your shooting for a 100' screen, by all means shoot RAW 28k, just be sure your presenting something worthwhile.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Announced specs allow for 1080p/60p.

Where are you seeing this? The spec sheets I've seen say "1080/60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) and 720/60p, 50p, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) in AVCHD’s highest-quality PH mode (maximum 24Mbps)."

Sorry for the rant, but to me, this type of stuff is just a continuation of the nonsense business practices of Sony and Panasonic, parceling out scraps of technology, only when forced to do so at gunpoint. If it were up to Panasonic, I believe they would prefer to keep all their prosumer customers on 1/3" or even 1/4" sensors. It's Red and Canon that have forced them to finally release a larger-sensor camera. Panasonic could have made this camera 5 years ago, but chose not to do so. Why?

IMO, these types of business practices, including the purposeful withholding of technology, is exactly why Jim started the Red camera company -- to stop all the nonsense and deliver the cameras we really wanted all along.

That is why I admire Jim and am loyal to Red.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Where are you seeing this? The spec sheets I've seen say "1080/60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) and 720/60p, 50p, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) in AVCHD’s highest-quality PH mode (maximum 24Mbps)."

I have to echo this. And, in fact, I've been rather lead to believe that the AVCHD codec specification is limited to 1080/60i. Panasonic has a consumer level handycam which break the standard and record 1080/60p in an "Original Format". That format (from my understanding) is basically AVCHD, but isn't part of the official specification - not all players, for instance, support 1080/60p playback.

So, either the AF-100 is shooting AVCHD and is limited to 1080/60i (which seems to be what all sources point to) or they shoot AVCHD and then switch to their "Original Format" (which would not be any form of standard) for 1080/60p.

Of course, the official Panasonic press release says:

Playback is available at 1080/24p, 1080/25p or 1080/30p. Playback at 1080/60p and 1080/50p are not available on this product.

So it's all a bit moot to me...

 

[Tom Lowe]

It baffles my mind how long it has taken Panasonic to put out a 1080/60p prosumer (or even professional!) camera. I remember complaining about this same issue back in 2006/2007!

 

[Michael Olsen]

It baffles my mind how long it has taken Panasonic to put out a 1080/60p prosumer (or even professional!) camera. I remember complaining about this same issue back in 2006/2007!

Big ships are hard to turn around :beer:

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Where are you seeing this? The spec sheets I've seen say "1080/60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) and 720/60p, 50p, 30p, 25p and 24p (native) in AVCHD’s highest-quality PH mode (maximum 24Mbps)."

Sorry for the rant, but to me, this type of stuff is just a continuation of the nonsense business practices of Sony and Panasonic, parceling out scraps of technology, only when forced to do so at gunpoint. If it were up to Panasonic, I believe they would prefer to keep all their prosumer customers on 1/3" or even 1/4" sensors. It's Red and Canon that have forced them to finally release a larger-sensor camera. Panasonic could have made this camera 5 years ago, but chose not to do so. Why?

IMO, these types of business practices, including the purposeful withholding of technology, is exactly why Jim started the Red camera company -- to stop all the nonsense and deliver the cameras we really wanted all along.

That is why I admire Jim and am loyal to Red.

Tom, Panasonic has already confirmed that there is a 1080/60p mode but it will play back at 24 fps so yes, it is not realtime but most of us here would not shoot realtime at 60fps so I can see how it would be useful for high quality semi slow motion. You can read about it on DVXuser. I think you are being a little too hard on the camera. For now, it is either this camera or DSLR's unless you have the budget for film, Alexa or RED. Yes the Scarlet 2/3 has more resolution but some will want the larger sensor and easier workflow over RAW, especially if they are used to the HVX. Yes, Panasonic and others should be releasing bleeding edge tech with all their funding but as history has shown, the real innovation comes from the small start-up companies. Panasonic, Sony and Canon are king and people will buy their products based on the name alone, a name that they trust. If they have never heard of you, they are less likely to give you money. I think this camera has its uses and we should be thankful that Panasonic has released a product that is a step in the right direction. Sure it is does not have a S35 sized sensor (but it is pretty close), 4K res (but using a recorder like the AJA Mini you can get very high quality 1080P) or RAW recording but the RED One MX does cost around $20,000 more and with all of the modules needed to add audio and the other features on the AF100, the Scarlet S35 will cost $10,000 plus compared to the $6,000 of the Panasonic cam, not to mention the fact that the Scarlet S35 is at least a year away if not more. As a user of the DVX and the HVX, I have confidence that Panasonic will release a quality product and while it is not RED, there is no reason to bash it.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Tom, Panasonic has already confirmed that there is a 1080/60p mode

Can you post a link to that confirmation? Everything I've seen in the form of official documentation from Panasonic has, as I last posted and linked, stated that the camera won't do 1080/60p.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Don't get me wrong.. it's a step in the right direction. The very first thing I said on this thread is that this camera is moving "in the right direction." My problem is not really with the camera itself, which seems pretty decent. It's how we got here.

My point was that only after Jim and Canon had backed Panasonic into a corner did they finally start "listening to customers."

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Don't get me wrong.. it's a step in the right direction. The very first thing I said on this thread is that this camera is moving "in the right direction." My problem is not really with the camera itself, which seems pretty decent. It's how we got here.

My point was that only after Jim and Canon had backed Panasonic into a corner did they finally start "listening to customers."

I know it's a nice narrative to think that this is reactionary and they never would have taken this step if not for our beloved red cameras and those 5D mark twos but the reality is they are simply large companies who like to stick to their conservative road maps.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Okay, let's say it's not a conspiracy. Then we simply have to chalk it up to utter incompetence and an outlandish lack of foresight and vision. The market for a large-sensor HD prosumer camera has existed for years and years and years. The message boards were flowing over with discussion of this huge, gaping hole in the market for over half a decade. The instant that Canon put out a large-sensor HD camera with interchangeable lenses -- the 5D2 -- it became the most successful product in the history of their entire company. Perhaps the most successful camera in the history of the world, period.

So again, for me, this is either a case of gross and almost shocking incompetence, or it's a matter of anti-consumer business practices that withhold needed technologies from customers for nefarious (and foolish) business reasons.

I have been making this exact same point here on this forum for three years now. To me, it is crystal clear how much influence Jim has had on cameras such as these, and on his competitors.... very much to their chagrin, but to the delight of their customers.