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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Overcranking at 4K? any news?

Graeme Nattress said:
Bottleneck is currently the chips that are doing the compression. Compressing 4k down to a manageable size is not easy and requires some serious horse-power for 30fps. To get 60fps requires double the horse-power.....

Graeme
Click to expand...

Thanks Graeme,

So, in theory, when the chips get faster, we could see 48-60fps 4K REDCODE RAW onboard compression? Are the chips upgradeable?
 
Tom beat me to it...

But I'm assuming this is the case, I was under the impression that everything about RED One is supposed to be modular and upgradeable. So if we can upgrade the innards of our cameras in a few years for less than buying a whole new camera, then I think RED will have succeeded on that front.

As for recording formats available now... I would think that in a few years, storage media will have become dense enough and fast enough to allow a competent RAID system for recording 4K 60p and 2K 120p to be mounted right on camera, connected to the RAW port. We all know that media will reach and someday surpass the requirments for that... It's just a question of when and what form it will take.
 
By the way, what type of chip is used for the compression? Intel?
 
Nick Shaw said:
You have an option now that's pretty close to that, Shoot 1080p scaled from the full frame, then you can record 60fps onboard as REDCODE RGB at about the same data-rate at 4k REDCODE RAW.

Oh and you don't need to change to a 16mm lens as such if you shoot windowed, but yes it will have the telephoto effect, so you will need wider 35mm lenses to get the same FoV.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reminder. I never thought of that. But 2K is better than 1080p, albeit technically just marginally better, it sounds better marketing wise. 1080p is considered "HD" while 2K is "digital cinema". They are in two different categories, in some folks' mind.

Seems like scaling to 1080p Redcode RGB for high speed shots is my only option as I want to stay in 35mm full frame mode. Hopefully one day we could do full frame 2K RAW mode in 60fps or even higher frame rate.

One more question, if I shoot normal speed material in 4K full frame Redcode Raw, can I mix and match 1080p RGB in the same timeline in post?
 
Whether you can mix and match 4K & 1080 footage depends on the NLE and other post tools you will be using. However, if you're going to edit on a 1080 timeline I would down-sample the 4K footage to 1080 in REDCINE before doing the edit.
 
Overcranked

Overcranked

The RedOne leverages many existing technologies, their particular implementation for digital cinema is buying us a ticket on the IT train. Chip speeds and storage performance will continue to improve dramatically as the stakes in that game are very high. It is exciting to think what kind of frame rates will likely be possible in just a few short years. Modular is good.

The design spec on the table for the rollout is very impressive when you look at available tech and the tiny form factor. The Dalsa, arguably the closest rig to the RedOne spec, is a monster by comparison.

If I was bidding a gig that required a lot of overcranking in the near future I would just rent a Phantom. Red will get there, once they have shipping units and their business more developed I believe higher frame rates will be one of the top priorities.
 
Thanks for the diagram, Brook. It clarifies things a lot. A picture really does speak a thousand words! I guess that's why we're not in a book writing forum...
 
Brook Willard said:
RED...
Click to expand...

Wait. Red is making a computer chip to do the compression in the camera? I understand that they are making the Mysterium sensor for the image, but the compression as well? Isn't that kind of like reinventing the wheel when companies like Intel, IMB and AMD are spending tens of billions to develop faster and more powerful chips every month? This must be a misunderstanding of the internal workings of a camera like this on my part. Aren't there two separate chips (one for image, one for compression and such)?

By the way, I add will add to chorus of thank you for that latest format diagram. That is incredibly helpful.
 
Whether or not the processor is actually made by RED, that's the most information we're likely to get on the subject. This camera is ruffling a lot of feathers up the camera food chain... they have to keep their secrets secret.
 
Brook is right. We can talk in general, but we can't get into specifics.

Graeme
 
I understand. I only asked because I was wondering if we might be able to buy off-the-shelf new Intel chips, for example, to upgrade the compression and other capabilities of the camera a year or two down the road.

Chips are advancing so fast now that a top-of-line PC chip bought this year will be a $200 joke thrown into cheap PCs next year.
 
Well regardless of who makes the processors, they will be upgradable. That's part of the beauty of this camera - the sensors, the processors, the lens mount... it can all be changed. Say there's a fancy new RED processor available in a year? You'll be able to send in the camera and have it upgraded.

Jim made a similar point regarding flash storage, but it holds true here as well. Intel, AMD, IBM, RED, etc... they're just names. If it works and the price is right, what does it matter?
 
Brook Willard said:
Well regardless of who makes the processors, they will be upgradable. That's part of the beauty of this camera - the sensors, the processors, the lens mount... it can all be changed. Say there's a fancy new RED processor available in a year? You'll be able to send in the camera and have it upgraded.

Jim made a similar point regarding flash storage, but it holds true here as well. Intel, AMD, IBM, RED, etc... they're just names. If it works and the price is right, what does it matter?
Click to expand...

Works for me.
 
1080P: still only 4:2:2?

1080P: still only 4:2:2?

So, to get back to the original crux:

If you want on-board slow-mo with 35mm DOF, it looks like your only option is downscaled 1080P in RGB.

But the Red site is still showing only 4:2:2 color sampling in RGB. It'd be nice to hear more about this limitation from the Red team.
 
But 4:2:2 only works in YpBpR recording, not RGB.
There are no YpBpR codecs on the format page anymore.
 
So In theory faster frame rates should be possible onboard Red-Drive in a year or so when the processors are capable of delivering it.

That's pretty good news for us cheap non-raid folks.

I hope it is intel as I'm told the new quad-core chips will just pop out and slot into the duo-core slots.

I hope it isnt a Z80
 
darkline said:
So In theory faster frame rates should be possible onboard Red-Drive in a year or so when the processors are capable of delivering it.

That's pretty good news for us cheap non-raid folks.

I hope it is intel as I'm told the new quad-core chips will just pop out and slot into the duo-core slots.
Click to expand...

Red is almost certainly using FPGAs or custom ASICs. Any general-purpose processor with enough performance to do what Red is doing in real-time (assuming there even is one) would use far too much power and generate far too much heat for an embedded application like this.
 
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