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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Overcranking at 4K? any news?

Tom Lowe

Tom Lowe

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I haven't been able to keep up with all the news, so I was wondering if any progress has been made regarding shooting overcranked 40-60fps at 4K "onboard"?

I plan to shoot a movie on location, mostly outdoors, natural light, that calls for 20 or more overcranked shots at least 48fps. To me, for cinema stuff, overcranking is super important these days. Being tethered to a RAID system is really going to be tough for location shoots, steadicam, music videos, etc.

I saw a chart in the workflow forum saying only 2540p comes out of the RAW port, not 4K. Is that right? Will any editing systems be able to deal with 2540p?

Has anyone looked into windowing the 4K REDCODE to 2.35 to save pixels so the camera can record 4K overcranked "onboard"?

If the camera will not be able to overcrank 4K untethered now, is it possible that firmware or a new processor or some other type of upgrade could allow for this in a year or so, when technology advances?

thanks!
 
I've been watching pretty closely. There is hope. Rob mentioned a the RED-Raid in a post that will be coming later...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7643#post7643

Which is different from the Red-Drive or "Red Mini Raid" as Jim called it in a different post. The hasn't been highlighted anywhere, so to me it was news.

Hopefully with that Red-Raid, they will allow us to attach a Red-Drive off of it to spool off Redcode Raw once captured and processed. So after each 60fps take, the box takes 3x shooting time to spool it to the drive and reclaim the raid space. We can still hang hope it will have features like this as the more I thought about it, this would be the best way to keep a Redcode Raw workflow, but still be able to overcrank when necessary.

Not sure of the timeing of the Red-Raid, but hopefully we'll have a better idea at NAB.

Thom
 
The RED-RAID has been in the pipes for a while now - it's the so-called "refrigerator RAID" that's been mentioned numerous times. While it obviously won't be THAT big, it won't fit onboard the camera and it probably won't be cheap [read: won't be near RED DRIVE pricing]. It's the big daddy RAID to record uncompressed RAW.


As for onboard [RED FLASH or RED DRIVE] REDCODE RAW 4K recording, 30p is still the maximum frame rate. To be honest... I think it's time to consider giving up hope for more than that at this time. To compress 4K@60p onboard is over 800MB/s that would need to be crunched through the REDCODE processor to spit about ~60MB/s out the other end. It just doesn't seem viable... at least not at this time.

People have been asking for 4K@>30p onboard REDCODE RAW for a long time now and the team has been fairly tight-lipped about it. They're doing everything they can but they've been silent enough on the issue that I doubt it'll happen. That's just too much processing power and data throughput to deal with at this point.

If I had to guess, I'd say that a processor upgrade could someday enable faster frame rates.

If you need to shoot 60p on a day, rent the RED-RAID for a day. I know being tethered sucks...

Any editing system that can handle QuickTime files will be able to "handle" 2540p. Editing will be done offline [ingest into REDCINE, export to an offline of your choice, edit, punch EDL through REDCINE, take online and go to color correction/finishing app]

So far there is no word on recording only wider aspect ratios to allow for a lower data rate or faster frame rate. While logistically speaking it seems reasonable [the RED ONE must have some sort of inherent "cropping" engine, as 2K REDCODE RAW is possible]. It would be nice, but who knows?

Maybe RED will prove me wrong.

My dream? To shoot 2540p REDCODE RAW onboard. Let's crunch the numbers...

4K@30p = 265,420,800 pixels per second. This will be possible onboard.

2540p@24p = 275,539,200 pixels per second. So close! Only 10,118,400 more pixels per second than what we know is possible...
 
Don't forget that before IBC, 4k onboard recording was not expected to be possible at all. The RED-DRIVE was originally going to be 2k only.

The more they give, the more we expect!
 
Brook,

Just want to bring it up as often as possible--Hopefully they will explore the idea of having a RAW->Redcode processor on the Red Raid with the ability to connect a Red Drive to it to convert the RAW on the fly (albeat time delayed) and spool it slowly to the Red Drive as Redcode Raw.

It is wishful thinking, and does put a processor on the Red-Raid, but it does so much for the workflow to be able to be working in Redcode Raw to the Red Drive, get to the slow mo shot, hook up the Red-Raid and move the Red-Drive to the back of the Red Raid, shoot your slow motion shot and have it added as the last shot onto the Red-drive.
 
I've had the same idea... it'd be nice. Frankly there's probably a way to create a system where the RED RAID sends the uncompressed RAW data back through the RAW port to the camera's onboard processor to compress to REDCODE at less than real-time after the shot is complete. Shoot 20 seconds, compress for 40 and move on. Will we see this at ship time? Doubtful.
 
Brook Willard said:
If you need to shoot 60p on a day, rent the RED-RAID for a day. I know being tethered sucks...
Click to expand...

I'm gonna be shooting for thirty days in four states on location. I will have to have a RAID array along for the whole trip. The problem is being outdoors shooting in forests and stuff, being tethered to a RAID might be tough. I guess if we could use a 100-foot ethernet cord, it is feasible, but far from ideal.

Any editing system that can handle QuickTime files will be able to "handle" 2540p. Editing will be done offline [ingest into REDCINE, export to an offline of your choice, edit, punch EDL through REDCINE, take online and go to color correction/finishing app]
Click to expand...

I'm planning to online 4K. Many people are. Just the same as we online our HVX footage.

So far there is no word on recording only wider aspect ratios to allow for a lower data rate or faster frame rate. While logistically speaking it seems reasonable [the RED ONE must have some sort of inherent "cropping" engine, as 2K REDCODE RAW is possible]. It would be nice, but who knows?
Click to expand...

I pray!
 
Brook Willard said:
There's a big difference between 720p and 4K.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna quote this back to you next year. ;)

Wavelet 4K online is already a reality and will soon be as easy as HVX/720 online-ing is now. No need for proxies. Online or death! haha.
 
Brook Willard said:
Nope. 2K@60p, 4K@30p onboard REDCODE RAW.
Click to expand...
Oh, thanks for the quick reply! So . . . now, I'm back to that "REDCODED RGB" thing that doesn't work with REDCINE, right? I mean, I NEED to acquire 4K-resolution, if I want to keep my S35-like depth-of-field characterisitcis, right? And if I do the in-camera scaling from 4K to 2K, it has to be in that "REDCODED RGB" (what is "REDCODED RGB" anyway--is that a synonym for uncompressed RAW?) which I can't use in REDCINE, right?
 
Possible or not, there's still a big difference...:D

Ralph Oshiro said:
Oh, thanks! So . . . now, I'm back to that RGB thing that doesn't work well with REDCINE, right? I mean, I NEED to acquire 4K-resolution, if I want to keep my S35-like depth-of-field characterisitcis, right? And if I do the in-camera scaling from 4K to 2K, it has to be that RGB thing, right?
Click to expand...

S35mm [2540p] is not possible onboard. You cannot compress REDCODE RAW 4.5K/2540p/S35mm sensor area onboard at this time. The 4K sensor area [which is recordable as REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB onboard] is equivalent to A35mm.

REDCODE RGB is still a badass format, it's just not as badass as REDCODE RAW. I believe that the REDCODE RGB data rate will be higher than REDCODE RAW. Something to think about.

A35mm sensor area [22.2mm x 12.6mm] ONBOARD: 4K REDCODE RAW, 1080p REDCODE RGB, 720p RGB. All formats go into REDCINE. There is no longer a mention of scaling the A35mm sensor area to 2K REDCODE RGB in-camera on the Format Options page.
 
Uncompressed RAW 4K@24fps = 323MB/s
REDCODE RAW 4K@24fps = 27.5MB/s
REDCODE RGB = ??.?MB/s

These are three different formats.

Uncompressed RAW requires the RAW data port and the RED RAID recording device. This is big honkin' madness for most of us, but it allows for higher frame rates. The RED RAID will be released at a later date [read: not at launch].

REDCODE RAW may be recorded in-camera. This is your best bet, though you cannot crest 30p@4K for aforementioned reasons. This is a bayer pattern 12-bit linear compression format.

REDCODE RGB is a third, different format. It is debayered, scaled [to 1080p or 720p] and [I believe...] 10-bit linear [may be log]. You will not have the awesome control over this image that you will have with either of the RAW formats, but it will still have its use for some.

The latter two formats may be recorded onboard [using RED FLASH] or onto the RED DRIVE [mini RAID].
 
Ok, this is it for me tonight. Here's a nice "at a glance" way to visualize a few things.

RED Team: If I've buggered something up, please edit my post and remove the images so I can correct them. I don't want to spread misinformation in such a format.
 
Ohhhhh . . . I think I'm getting it now, Brook, thanks! So, my personal acquisition recipe would then go something like this . . .

[EDIT: THIS HAS BEEN REVISED HERE—>REVISED RECIPE]

A. STANDARD 24fps PHOTOGRAPHY:
1. Acquire 4K REDCODE RAW at 24fps [to take advantage of S35 depth-of-field].
2. Rescale and crop the 4K REDCODE RAW image in REDCINE down to a 1080p, 2.35:1-aspect ratio bitstream [my desired delivery format].

B. HIGH-SPEED 60fps PHOTOGRAPHY:
1. Use the "windowed" 2K sensor area only, and acquire REDCODE RAW at 1080p at 60fps, sacrificing the 4K shallow depth-of-field characterisitics, in exchange for the ability to acquire images at these higher frame rates when slow-motion photography is desired.
2. Rescale the 2K REDCODE RAW image to a 1080p bitstream, cropped to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio in REDCINE.

Is that kinda what I would end up doing if my desired delivery requires only a 1080p-resolution master, in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio? Thanks for your replies, and good night!
 
Personally, I would choose 2K REDCODE RAW [using S16mm sensor area] at 60p over your 1080p60 plan. Sacrificing the 35mm DOF for the RAW data and extra resolution is worth it to me. Considering that you'll be shooting a few stops more open than you will be with your 35mm/4K footage, the DOF changes shouldn't be relevant.

Also please note that 4K REDCODE RAW does NOT have the Super 35mm depth of field/field of view/etc. characteristics. When you shoot 4K REDCODE RAW you are using the 35mm sensor area, NOT the Super 35mm sensor area. You can only use the Super 35mm sensor area if you shoot Uncompressed RAW. Uncompressed RAW requires the external RED RAID we've discussed above.
 
Ralph, if your end result is to be 1080p, you CAN shoot the Academy 35 sensor area, preserving 35mm DoF, at 60fps and record on-board at 1080p60 REDCODE RGB. You don't need to window the sensor for 60fps. If you window the sensor, you can record 120fps on-board, but only at 720p REDCODE RGB. You would need to up-scale this in post to cut into a 1080p programme, but I think I would look ok.
 
Tom said:
I'm gonna quote this back to you next year. ;)

Wavelet 4K online is already a reality and will soon be as easy as HVX/720 online-ing is now. No need for proxies. Online or death! haha.
Click to expand...

I bet online 4K will be reality by the time my RED #1110 ships. I can online 3 streams of 1080p24 on my G5 quad right now. A 3GHz quad-core Mac Pro is about 20% faster overall (although it's hard to put a true number to it) and we're expecting 8-core Mac Pro systems around NAB (when Intel's new chipset should be shipping to better support the quad-core Xeons). My AMD X2 (2.4GHz dual-core, 3GB RAM) can handle 2 streams of DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps in real-time via Edius.

If I can't online at least one feed of REDCODE RGB 4K off of a decent RAID and a new workstation bought late this year, then I'll be rather disappointed.

In reality though, I think it still makes the most sense to shoot 4K, export to and edit in 2K, deliver to film and/or HD 1080p.
 
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