Optimator vs. Null Lens and Target

[Peter Matthes]

Digital,

Sorry, but I think that post #20 specifically says

*** KEEP IN MIND. I have not held any of these FFD tools in my hand, nor had a chance to use any of them. ***

That, in addition to leaving out the last two (Denz and Lumacheck) would leave me asking the same question.

Woody,

If you look further down the thread, you will see that I provided a link to a recently posted Denz Vimeo video. At very least, it clearly demonstrates their product.

As far as Lumacheck, if you can find out anything beyond their one page web site, I more than welcome you to contribute it.

Like you, I am a potential buyer, and my interest in starting this thread was to attract discussion from current owners. Privately I have contacted some people that have seen prototypes and fiddled with various models, but they have wanted to keep their opinions out of this thread.

In this thread, Oliver from TCS has kindly put some suggestions out there as well.

Next week, I will be visiting Band Pro NYC to try out their offerings. (Pro and Deluxe)

As far as a neutral evaluation ...

If you read the whole thread, you will see that I have suggested that very event. I would love for someone to suggest a testing party. In a perfect world, it might be a devoted lens technician like Matthew Duclos. I had also hoped that manufacturers might freely provide their models to be tested.

However ... It is probably going to be difficult for anyone to offer themselves as a judge. That could put them at odds with the makers of the products that they like less. Furthermore there are people making these products all over the world.

Like any product, not covered by Consumer Reports, you will need to take what you can from this thread and the several that branch off of it. Then do some of your own research. Perhaps go try a few out ... at Band Pro ... Abel Cine Tech ... and then make a decision.

Hope this helps.

 

[John "Woody" Glaser]

Peter,
Thank You for your response. Before I shell out 4-5K for a unit I would always want the product to be evaluated by someone not making money off of it.
There is a slight problem...These are not easily accessable
I have read something about micron's and things not being calibrated, and so on, but it appears to be a very select few that have a problem or problems(or actually own one).
I would like to someone to be able to see a Denz...and an Optimator...and a Lumacheck and a Null, that is why I offered the challenge.
They are ALL not readily available for me to check out.
I do not see a difference in all the lens talk and the testing that goes on continually here on the Red and Lenses. But, we wouldn't test a product that will help set up our Red Camera's? I have jumped in on several projects and found out that the camera showed up that day, and when I pulled out a tape...It wasn't close. I know that we are in a different era now. One thing I would like to know, is that any camera I am pulling on, 6' equal 6' on the barrel. Call me crazy....
Not putting Matt on the spot...He wouldn't have been my first choice as well

 

[Harry Clark]

Woody,
Next time you're at CSC, ask to see the Denz product. They have one there for evaluation, as they are looking for a portable checker that they can send David or Andreas out with to the set if there is an issue with any of the digital cameras.
I looked at it last time I was there and it's pretty impressive. It's nice because the scale tells you how much the depth is out, in addition to the on-screen alignment.
I have also seen the Null/Target and it looks good and very simple.
I was considering the Unique Optics Fixed Diascope as well.
But, like you, I want to evaluate the products first hand before I buy...
PS- You've never had a depth problem with a Shrunken Head Films camera, have you???
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Evin Grant]

Well I've actually used the Null and Optimator and been able to play with a prototype Diascope.

The Null is an interesting option but in my experiences with it produced mixed results and requires one to have significant light and distance making it unusable on stage or interior situations and thus only a convenience device and not a tool for every day work.

The Optimator seemed to work well and do the job in pretty much every situation but was a little large and the siemens star pattern was not the easiest to focus on. This was an early unit though so this may have been improved.

The prototype Diaspoce is very similar to the Optimator in build and design and also suffers from the same siemens star. Someone should really make a Putora version of this.

I'm very interested in trying the Denz unit as that seems to be the most compact and elegant design I've seen.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator reticule

Optimator reticule

Well I've actually used the Null and Optimator and been able to play with a prototype Diascope.



The Optimator seemed to work well and do the job in pretty much every situation but was a little large and the siemens star pattern was not the easiest to focus on. This was an early unit though so this may have been improved.

The Optimator target was never a Siemens star- It's an outdated target unsuitable for Hi Res testing IMO. The early protos of Optimator had a version of ISO chart. The Production units have targets fabricated with different technology with greatly improved contrast- practically perfect blacks.
The reticule is also a proprietary Optitek design matched with the optics for optimum performance. The reticule performs additional tasks like sensor centering measurement, tilt amount, rotational allignment, noise level in blacks etc, etc..and others. All features perform particular tasks for testing purposes. I believe that the cameras used for SALT test were adjusted with the early prototype unit.
The videos show the production target (reticule):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF022NkUeOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVlDVCgBydI

 

[John "Woody" Glaser]

Harry and Evan,

How are you guys?

Thank You for stepping up ...This is the kind of dialogue that sparks interest.
Harry, Thanks for the heads up on the Denz Product. (No these problems did not occur on any Shrunken Head Project,as you well know The worst was not having time to even adjust backfocus on a huge semi circular track with talent "all over the ice"...Eeesh, I think everyone can see my point.
I also apologize for not including the Unique Optics fixed Diascope in my last post. I mentioned the unit in my original post weeks back.
I would hope that anyone who owns any of these units would jump right in with their own assessment of the product both good and bad.
I would still prefer a totally neutal party to test them all and would be interested in that party's conclusion. That evaluation and me choosing the one that would best suit my needs, after my own test, would finalize a sale.

This community is about learning and sharing. That is why I enjoy being a member.

Evin, I look forward to seeing you again next time I am in L.A.

Best Regards,
Woody

 

[Peter Matthes]

Woody,
Next time you're at CSC, ask to see the Denz product.

Harry ... Is the Denz FDC at CSC on 54th in NYC or Secaucus, NJ?

The Optimator target was never a Siemens star- It's an outdated target unsuitable for Hi Res testing IMO.

I cannot stand Siemens stars for achieving sharp focus. The Fiddlehead chart, IMO, is infinitely better.

Jacek ... Would it be okay for me to post the frame grab that you sent me of the current Optimator reticle?

 

[Harry Clark]

Sadly, now CSC may only be found in Secaucus, NJ...
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Peter Matthes]

Sadly, now CSC may only be found in Secaucus, NJ...
Cheers,
Harry

New Jersey?

What exit?

Just kidding Jerseyites. :001_tongue:

Thanks Harry.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator reticule

Optimator reticule

Harry ... Is the Denz FDC at CSC on 54th in NYC or Secaucus, NJ?



I cannot stand Siemens stars for achieving sharp focus. The Fiddlehead chart, IMO, is infinitely better.

Jacek ... Would it be okay for me to post the frame grab that you sent me of the current Optimator reticle?

Go ahead, Peter...

:thumbup:

 

[Mitch Gross]

nyone who wants to see a NULL Lens can do so at an Abel office in New York, LA or Chicago. We rent them as well. The Targets ship soon so you'll be able to check them out as well. In the meantime I have a preproduction model sitting by my desk in NY and I'm happy to demo it with people here in the shop. (Please call first -- sometimes you guys like to show up unannounced and if I'm not available I'm not available).

Can't get to one of our offices? Send me an email and we'll see what we can do.

The NULL is insanely easy to use. I believe Evin tested with our original prototype unit at the SALT shootout, and the optics have improved considerably on the production model. Much less flare so it's easier to see focus.

One of our techs wasn't sure I could be as consistently accurate with a NULL Lens/Target combo compared to one of the other devices so we set up a little test, measuring the system with a $50K collimating bench after each test. He knocked the RED out of adjustment and I had 10 seconds to reset it. Did it half a dozen times in a row and nailed it every time. Easy-peasy.

 

[Peter Matthes]

Okay.

At the bottom, thanks to Jacek, I have attached small downsized picture of the current Optimator reticle:

However, I have also hosted on imageshack a full size uncompressed image of the Optimator reticle.

I have done this because I am curious about something. In relation to the center of the image, which is sharp, the corners seem to be in soft focus. Is this due to the Canon EOS DSLR that was used to take the frame grab or something else?

My Nikon prime lenses suffer softness in the corners when wide open, but there is no lens involved here.

A major advantage of the Optimator over its competition is to see into the frame corners, thereby allowing one to judge proper sensor alignment. If I got a result like this, I might make the assumption that the sensor was not completely flat.

What do you think Jacek?

Perhaps this full size image is not representative?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator reticule

Optimator reticule

I picked this frame grab because it demonstrates what issues you may run into with sensor alignment.
This one is pretty minor- no need to worry- but you can still see the soft horizontal trumpets in the upper left and lower right corners. A clear sign or 4th and 5th axis alignment issues. To be clear this would be something that the camera manufacturers are doing- I can't imagine end user having access to these adjustments- a recipe for disaster.
This is a relatively minor mis alignment yet easily detectable with the Optimator.
It's guarantied you would never see a problem with footage.

 

[Peter Matthes]

I have been trying to reach Jim Hegadorn at Band Pro NYC so I can schedule a look-see of the Optimator Pro tomorrow afternoon.

So far ... no luck. :sad:

 

[ericyoung]

I picked this frame grab because it demonstrates what issues you may run into with sensor alignment.
This one is pretty minor- no need to worry- but you can still see the soft horizontal trumpets in the upper left and lower right corners. A clear sign or 4th and 5th axis alignment issues. To be clear this would be something that the camera manufacturers are doing- I can't imagine end user having access to these adjustments- a recipe for disaster.
This is a relatively minor mis alignment yet easily detectable with the Optimator.
It's guarantied you would never see a problem with footage.

That's interesting - if I bought the Optimator and saw the corners looking like this compared to the centre I'd start worrying, yet your undoubted experience with lenses leads you to say this is minor and invisible in footage!

I wonder how bad the corners would have to look before you'd say that it would be visible in footage or that we should send the camera in for service/repair?

For us non-lens experts we're going to need some guidelines on what is within expected acceptable/good/great lens performance ranges I think.

For the example picture, can you circle the areas (say in Photoshop) you are referring to specifically? To my untrained eye all the corners look similar yet you specifically refer to just the top left and bottom right.

Also what do you mean by 4th or 5th axis?

Thanks for any clarification.
Eric

 

[Peter Matthes]

To my untrained eye all the corners look similar yet you specifically refer to just the top left and bottom right.

I had the same feeling, Eric.

All four corners look fairly soft to me compared to the middle.

I'm anxious to try one out.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator tests part I

Optimator tests part I

I had the same feeling, Eric.

All four corners look fairly soft to me compared to the middle.

I'm anxious to try one out.

boy this is going to be a long thread....
I'm up for it however.
First we need to set some ground rules here:
-you are not looking at RedOne frame grab- Redone frame grabs looks quite different(aspect ratio, resolution, noise etc.)
-at this time we are looking at sensor alignment only- nothing else. By that I mean (mechanical)placement of the sensor in relation to the lens mount.
-the sensor surface is flat- we don't need to verify that
-the pixel density on the sensor is uniform
-the pixel response on the sensor is uniform- all pixels render the same image the same way- regardless of the location on the sensor.
There are 6 axis of alignment
1-x axis- side to side shift
2-y axis- up/down shift
3-z axis- flange depth
4-xr axis- rotation around x (or vertical tilt)
5-yr axis- rotation around y (horizontal tilt)
6-zr axis- rotation around z axis( this is when your bubble on the tripod matches the horizon level looking at the monitor.)

I'll give it a day or so for you to digest it- let me know if you are with me so far....
Let me know if you have questions or comments- I need everyone to be clear on this before we get any further- that is if the camera manufacturer's ninjas won't get to me first for revealing their secrets....:seeya:

 

[ericyoung]

Thanks Jacek!

With you so far, but it's Peter's thread so should wait until he's logged in to read your latest post!

 

[Peter Matthes]

I'm with you guys.

I have a little trouble visualizing the ZR axis tilt of a sensor, but don't wait on my account. :huh:

P.S. Jim at Band Pro NYC and I made a tentative appointment to test out the Optimator Pro and Deluxe with my Red One this Friday.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

on the same page

on the same page

I'm with you guys.

I have a little trouble visualizing the ZR axis tilt of a sensor, but don't wait on my account. :huh:

P.S. Jim at Band Pro NYC and I made a tentative appointment to test out the Optimator Pro and Deluxe with my Red One this Friday.

Please let me know of any doubts, or trouble visualizing- I can't explain to you further...
Peter, when you put a camera on a tripod, get your bubble perfectly centered/level and point the camera at the flat horizon(best at the ocean- not mountains or hills) your horizon should be parallel to the top edge of the monitor frame. If it's crooked and you have to tilt the (tripod) head sideways to make it parallel your ZR axis is off.
let me know...