Open question to BM: How would you feel if you just bought Resolve?

[Dave Blackham]

I had to deal with this kind of nonsense when I worked at BM 8 years back. There are some very simple principles here.

First, is the licence you bought still worth the money you paid for it? Pretty hard to argue that one. A year before you paid out your precious $1,000 it was selling for $850,000. You poor dear, you've been ripped off. Horrible, mean old BMD. :crying:

Second principle. Just because the producer's daughter gets the free licence doesn't mean she has any idea or talent for the job at hand. It's the oldest, tiredest old industry whinge that "soon anyone will have the gear I have and I'll never get a job". True - if you're a no talent, unprofessional bum - but if you are actually a talented, professional operator, charge for you and you'll get work. (not suggesting you are a no talent unprofessional bum ,merely saying relax, you'll still get work). The same old cry of the sky is falling went up when Final Cut Pro was released, when Mini DV came out, when Red entered the market. The only people to suffer are those who hide behind their lack of something real to offer by having the most gear. Flawed, elitist business model and glad to see the back of it.

Three, how can you complain that BM's decisions have destroyed the industry and will put people out of work when, as has been pointed out, hacked and pirated software costs nothing either. Most producers I know have Macs and PCs full of hacked and pirated software. Whilst they lack the will to spend money on software and gear, they also lack the will to learn how to use it or the time to actually complete the job. Sure, there are those that will elect to become one man bands and do it all themselves. This forum is full of such types (of which I am one) but most of us actually have a background as DP's or editors etc.

Don't trade on the gear you own or what you paid for it. Trade on your talent, professionalism and experience. The moment you start putting the price you paid for your gear on your rate card you open yourself up to getting slammed by the big post houses, who will always have more than you.

And, lets' do the math here. One percent of purchase price per day. So you paid $1,000 for a Resolve license. That's worth, let me see - $10 a day in rental. Over a 10 hour day thats... My hourly rate is $70. If I offer Resolve Lite I can only charge $69? Come on. Gimme a break.

Well said.

Some years ago in the world of Sd we purchased an odd ball color corrector, wasnt expensive but not cheap either, actually it had very good signal processing but it wasnt at that time a name in our city. The colorists were very good and before long we have cornered the local color correction market and other clients began to come to us from further afield. The point is we made it on skills not expensive named kit. Now you can make it on your skills, named kit whilst its also inexpensive. $950 is not expensive for the software in any ones book. The other components of the suite, monitoring computor and so on may cost a somewhat more but not the $850,000 than it once used to. Id like to think we get repeat work because we are good at what we do, not because we have expensive kit.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

If your livelihood depends solely on the tools you have and not on your talent then you are in the rental business. And even that needs talent. There's a point in there somewhere for Mr. Ruffo.

There is no point at all in that for me. Just because I invest money in gear, and expect some kind of reasonable ROI on that gear, does not mean I EVER talk about that to clients. Did you read my other posts? If you bought an Epic-M for 58K last week and this week they were free, would you say "That's cool, it's all about talent?" If you would, I'm glad I'm not your bank manager. this is 1K, not 58K (although it was 250K for many 2 years ago) but it's the same principle, and it's the principle that bothers me. Did any of you ever take any management courses!?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well said.

Some years ago in the world of Sd we purchased an odd ball color corrector, wasnt expensive but not cheap either, actually it had very good signal processing but it wasnt at that time a name in our city. The colorists were very good and before long we have cornered the local color correction market and other clients began to come to us from further afield. The point is we made it on skills not expensive named kit. Now you can make it on your skills, named kit whilst its also inexpensive. $950 is not expensive for the software in any ones book. The other components of the suite, monitoring computor and so on may cost a somewhat more but not the $850,000 than it once used to. Id like to think we get repeat work because we are good at what we do, not because we have expensive kit.

In New York, L.A., Montreal or Toronto, I can guarantee that would not have worked, not in the advertising world at any rate. Jake and I (and many BM users) work in a different world with different players than some of you guys.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Rob, the business model of giving something away for free is not new. Consider facebook. Consider google. If you think they are simply advertising driven, consider twitter. These companies are in it for the long term, and what they give away today for free, they are reaping benefits in many other ways - whether its data, patents, consumer base, distribution platform and on and on. Giving hardware away for free is not the same situation as software. Once built, software bits can be replicated at close to zero cost (disk space and download bandwidth may be the biggest cost). Can't say the same for hardware (such as the EPIC M).

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Can't wait!

@Rob - I guess all I'm trying to figure out is if there's a solution you or anyone else here can propose that doesn't include asking a manufacturer to NOT drop prices, and infact, RAISE THEM to maintain an aura of mystique (Tiffany's model perhaps?). If that's the only solution to the issue at hand (and I agree there's an issue at hand), then its a pretty odd solution to even consider, let alone pursue. I mean, a class action lawsuit against a manufacturer for DROPPING prices...? How does that even get argued in court?

I guess I just don't get the solution that seems to have been floated here (if I'm understanding the thread correctly). I get that there's a problem (perception, downward pressure on pricing, disappearing business models, image-driven and/or if-its-expensive-no-one-can-fire-us-for-choosing-it CYA producers etc). But the (seemingly) proposed solution baffles me.

EDIT: you have to understand my perspective is that of someone who saw the Hollywood Studios go from using expensive SGI boxes to clusters of inexpensive Windows NT workstations without batting an eyelid and delivered more and more stunning VFX work. No one ever mentioned wanting to pay SGI prices for the Win NT boxes.

Yeah, but those NT boxes were not running FREE software, they were (and are) running generally expensive apps - hardware is not software and does NOT usually follow Moore's law. I would have said nothing if they would have dropped their price by an incremental percentage. I think a solution is that BM refund those who want a refund and who bought recently.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, the business model of giving something away for free is not new. Consider facebook. Consider google. If you think they are simply advertising driven, consider twitter. These companies are in it for the long term, and what they give away today for free, they are reaping benefits in many other ways - whether its data, patents, consumer base, distribution platform and on and on. Giving hardware away for free is not the same situation as software. Once built, software bits can be replicated at close to zero cost (disk space and download bandwidth may be the biggest cost). Can't say the same for hardware (such as the EPIC M).

Facebook did not charge $1000 one day, and then nothing the next. I am mad because I feel BM burned people in many ways, including those developing for-pay apps. They hurt the business. I do not respect scrorched-earth business practices.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Maybe you could teach me? I am new to Resolve and would pay for tutoring sessions. Or better yet, maybe one of your friends that is being hurt the most by BMs decision could do it?

PM me, I will refer you to them.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Relatively speaking, they were. Prices were slashed across the board even back then. In any case, today, free versions of softimage and (I believe) Maya are available.

Here's my guess as to why companies are doing this. Including RED with REDCINE X.

All these software packages require IMMENSE amount of time and effort investment by their operators to gain any degree of expertise in it. So even when BM gives DVR away for 'free', its not really free to the end operator who invests time and energy and training dollars into it. There is always a cost associated with it. Frankly, from 250K to 1K, it might as well have gone from 250K to 0K. No difference at all in my mind.

All of which is to say, I believe BM may be doing the RIGHT thing, and not the wrong thing as some folks seem to believe.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Facebook did not charge $1000 one day, and then nothing the next. I am mad because I feel BM burned people in many ways, including those developing for-pay apps. They hurt the business. I do not respect scrorched-earth business practices.

I appreciate the fact that this hurts a variety of parties. Just to state this, all of the companies I mentioned were highly disruptive and uprooted entire industries. Someone more knowledgeable can speak to the variety of businesses wiped out, but as always, like the phoenix rising, they also gave rise to a crop of NEW businesses and business models. I mean, I just purchased a 15K (RED) product over the web, never having even seen or touched it. They have enabled a huge pyschological mind shift in the consumer. I'm personally trying to decide if I invest my time and effort into Davinci, RCX, Smoke on the Mac, AE etc etc. The fact that Davinci has shown foresight, and aggressive resolve in being a survivor and a player, endears me to their software solution.

 

[paulherrin]

Immature, emotionally-biased complaining is not only extremely counter-productive, it's also (with all due respect) terribly aggravating, as you've already found that most people don't even want to try to understand what you're feeling. I understand you're upset. Any number of people would probably be at least a little peeved in your situation, and I'm not saying you shouldn't look into Resolving it. But seriously man, please check yourself and clear your mind. Getting a refund is not going to make you feel better. If it's not this it will be something else. Broaden your gaze to understand a world of different people and ideas and motivations, then you may perhaps realize, maybe it's not about feeling better. I'm right there with you, I get upset about the silliest of things. And I wish someone would set me straight from time to time. So that's what I'm doing, take it or leave it, but it's time to grow up. It's always time to grow up.

Now, if you want to make a legitimate plea... take a deep breath, and go look outside your window. There are millions of people out there working and struggling through extreme hardship, literally just barely saving themselves and their loved ones from starvation as the result of oppression. Look at this world for just a moment, and if you still think that you should spend more energy fighting this terrible wrong than what we'll call actual injustice, I'd only personally ask that you do so privately and respectfully with the company. You may find that more successful than rallying defiance. In any case, I advise you spend less energy on things that will profit you little, and invest more energy in those things of greater value.

 

[Peter Moretti]

...
The software industry does, not, on the whole, depreciate it's value (normally) the way the computer hardware industry does. Software normally goes down in small steps, or not at all. This is the first time I've seen a pro tool go from $250 000 to FREE in less than two years.

...

Rob, I understand that you're upset and that two weeks is very little time to be with Resolve before the Lite version comes out. If I were BMD, I'd give some type of coupon or giftcard to those who had just purchased the full version. But really, you have to admit that you are one of the last guys to arrive at the station and start screaming about the train having left. With DaVinci it left two years ago. That initial price drop to $1K is much more significant than going from $1K to $0.

And this is not only with Resolve. Look at Color Finesse being included free in CS5. As a pulgin, it costs $575 and as a standalone app $2K. But of course the most extreme example is with Avid. Media Composer, Symphony and DS have all plummeted in price. How would you like to be sitting on $100'sK of dedicated Avid hardware running DS and Symphony knowing that someone can plop down $2K on a computer and get better performance. Does this bode well for the future? IDK.

But this is not a new development and it's certainly not one that the software industry has immune to.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I understand that you're upset and that two weeks is very little time to be with Resolve before the Lite version comes out. If I were BMD, I'd give some type of coupon or giftcard to those who had just purchased the full version. But really, you have to admit that you are one of the last guys to arrive at the station and start screaming about the train having left. With DaVinci it left two years ago. That initial price drop to $1K is much more significant than going from $1K to $0.

And this is not only with Resolve. Look at Color Finesse being included free in CS5. As a pulgin, it costs $575 and as a standalone app $2K. But of course the most extreme example is with Avid. Media Composer, Symphony and DS have all plummeted in price. How would you like to be sitting on $100'sK of dedicated Avid hardware running DS and Symphony knowing that someone can plop down $2K on a computer and get better performance. Does this bode well for the future? IDK.

But this is not a new development and it's certainly not one that the software industry has immune to.

Good points. I wasn't really complaining on my own behalf - we've spent more or many dooodads that proved less useful than hoped, and life goes on. I just hope people start realizing that there are counter-effects that hurt people (again, these people not really being me) when these things happen. A free-for-all where everything costs nothing has many serious, negative consequences. Some people who bought that Avid system and have children to feed and mortgages to pay, and maybe that is as important a consideration as skateboarding and wedding videomakers having access to the latest tech at no cost. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Immature, emotionally-biased complaining is not only extremely counter-productive, it's also (with all due respect) terribly aggravating, as you've already found that most people don't even want to try to understand what you're feeling. I understand you're upset. Any number of people would probably be at least a little peeved in your situation, and I'm not saying you shouldn't look into Resolving it. But seriously man, please check yourself and clear your mind. Getting a refund is not going to make you feel better. If it's not this it will be something else. Broaden your gaze to understand a world of different people and ideas and motivations, then you may perhaps realize, maybe it's not about feeling better. I'm right there with you, I get upset about the silliest of things. And I wish someone would set me straight from time to time. So that's what I'm doing, take it or leave it, but it's time to grow up. It's always time to grow up.

Now, if you want to make a legitimate plea... take a deep breath, and go look outside your window. There are millions of people out there working and struggling through extreme hardship, literally just barely saving themselves and their loved ones from starvation as the result of oppression. Look at this world for just a moment, and if you still think that you should spend more energy fighting this terrible wrong than what we'll call actual injustice, I'd only personally ask that you do so privately and respectfully with the company. You may find that more successful than rallying defiance. In any case, I advise you spend less energy on things that will profit you little, and invest more energy in those things of greater value.

I am not a foreign aid worker. I work in THIS business, and I try to speak out on behalf of my sisters and brothers in this business. There are many non-obvious motivations here n my part, including thanking Red for NOT being that way, and maybe not joining the herd in the current group think where everything should be as cheap as possible, non-obvious consequences be damned. Buying gear and software has to remain a good investment or else no one will do so anymore, and tech innovation will stop. I really don't want that to happen. It's not about my puny $1000, it's about stopping that from happening. I would gladly throw another $10 000 down the tubes to stop that from happening.

Red has put fire under the asses of other camera makers, and that's a great thing, but they didn't come out and try to destroy the entire high-end camera business as a viable business model. A healthy amount of fire is not a scorched earth amount - there's a difference. There is also a HUGE perceptual difference to clients between $1000 and free. If you don't understand that difference in markets like ads and high-end music video in major production cities then you simply do not have experience in that world. This is fine, but don't claim to know what it's like to work in that world, and many BM users do work in that world.

I speak up, also, because I find FinalCut X to be a horrible indication of a possible future, a future where there would be no high-end, nothing for those struggling at the bottom to hope for, just poverty and prosumer crap all around. I'm not a Marxist. I think everyone needs a top echelon to hope for, whether they reach it or not.

I'm not whining here. I'm trying to stand up for what I feel to be right.

 

[paulherrin]

Rob, I get where you are coming from. And a lot of ways I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the doomsday pity-party attitude and the slippery-slope logic. Adapt, change, evolve. The world does so despite our attempts otherwise. If you try to hold on to what you learned about business however long ago, you have not learned very much. And if you think I'm telling you that to belittle you, you've learned even less. For your benefit, and for the benefit of the friends you worry about, you would do well to listen to the wisdom of some of these guys, and seek a fair portion for yourself.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I get where you are coming from. And a lot of ways I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the doomsday pity-party attitude and the slippery-slope logic. Adapt, change, evolve. The world does so despite our attempts otherwise. If you try to hold on to what you learned about business however long ago, you have not learned very much. And if you think I'm telling you that to belittle you, you've learned even less. For your benefit, and for the benefit of the friends you worry about, you would do well to listen to the wisdom of some of these guys, and seek a fair portion for yourself.

It won't be doomsday if we all speak up, only if we do nothing at all. I have found what I say on some forums to have had a trickle effect on certain things, surprisingly significant. I've started memes, and they have grown, they have improved certain situations. I don't see where I am asking for pity when I come out and say that $1000 means almost nothing to me. I know my business and my clients well, I make a really, really great living, but learn new things every day. There is much wisdom on this forum, but people talking about a fictional, wishful world where all that matters is art, or guys claiming that my and Jake's business environment should be just like theirs are not wise, they are simply naive (I'm not implying you here).

I also don't agree with a passive attitude. None of my heroes had a passive attitude. No one really admires a leaf in the wind. There is a fine line between "adapt, change evolve" and "bend over and take it".

 

[Shane Betts]

Rob, this whole discussion is bollocks. Instead of this crazy ranting about class actions to stop vendors from reducing prices (on the Red forum, no less) why don't you simply take a straw poll of your friends to see who wants to sell their Resolve dongles and offer them up here for sale on Reduser. I guarantee you you'll get a fair portion of your investment back (a lot of 4k shooters around here) - and will have lost less than the income not earned while you were on here complaining. Then download Lite and go back to work. Earn some money. Use the tools you have bought. Then come back and complain that Lite doesn't do all the things that the dongled version does and that, somehow, you've been ripped off. Again. Then go and buy an F35 and feel good about how much you've spent... Sheesh.

 

[paulherrin]

Not sure we're communicating well here because I pretty much agree with everything you're saying, though you're manner is coming across as arrogance.

Passive attitude is the one that sits and complains about a situation, rather than proactively seeking a mutually beneficial solution. Adapting, changing, and evolving require work. Real, active work that accepts and overcomes challenges. Passivity says "If (someone else) doesn't do (some thing), I ______." Sound familiar? Now go contribute to your own destiny, there's no reason for fuss about this stuff.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Not sure we're communicating well here because I pretty much agree with everything you're saying, though you're manner is coming across as arrogance.

Passive attitude is the one that sits and complains about a situation, rather than proactively seeking a mutually beneficial solution. Adapting, changing, and evolving require work. Real, active work that accepts and overcomes challenges. Passivity says "If (someone else) doesn't do (some thing), I ______." Sound familiar? Now go contribute to your own destiny, there's no reason for fuss about this stuff.

Paul, I agree with what you say here - I didn't mean to sound arrogant, sorry about that. As for Shane, I have said many times my displeasure is not at all over me and my measly $1000. You really don't understand what I am trying to say at all, it's like you're responding to someone who is not me, but at this point I give up. I have to get back to work and will no longer respond to this forum, but it's been a fun debate abdgot people thinking - those are both good things, aren't they?

 

[Peter Moretti]

Good points. I wasn't really complaining on my own behalf - we've spent more or many dooodads that proved less useful than hoped, and life goes on. I just hope people start realizing that there are counter-effects that hurt people (again, these people not really being me) when these things happen. A free-for-all where everything costs nothing has many serious, negative consequences. Some people who bought that Avid system and have children to feed and mortgages to pay, and maybe that is as important a consideration as skateboarding and wedding videomakers having access to the latest tech at no cost. That's all I'm saying.

And I don't think that these points are insignificant either. There are repercussions not only to post houses but also people who work as developers and engineers. FWIU, the majority of Red Giant (makes Magic Bullet and Colorista) coding is now done in Asia. I believe Avid has also outsourced a lot of its development and has essentially stopped designing new hardware b/c it's just too darn expensive to design and make domestically.

Avid may have won a Pyhrric victory against FCP, as it cost them over $200 million in cash on hand, the company is still not turning a profit and they have laid off a lot of workers... most recently our own Michael Phillips.

If people think free doesn't have real some costs associated with it, they are drinking Kool-Aid. Do these costs outweigh the benefits, perhaps not, but they can't be brushed aside either--or made to seem like they don't exist.


Peace to all .

 

[paulherrin]

Paul, I agree with what you say here - I didn't mean to sound arrogant, sorry about that. As for Shane, I have said many times my displeasure is not at all over me and my measly $1000. You really don't understand what I am trying to say at all, it's like you're responding to someone who is not me, but at this point I give up. I have to get back to work and will no longer respond to this forum, but it's been a fun debate abdgot people thinking - those are both good things, aren't they?

good stuff, rob. no worries.