Open letter to Element Technica - ergo problems with your Handheld Rig

[Mark Pugh]

This Pic was originally posted by Gibby to show off the new ET handheld rig.
I'm a bit worried about the evolution of the EVF ergonomics on the Red One. In the pic below, the viewfinder is pointing down, because he can't get the EVF forward enough in a position low enough. He's found a compromise position... so the EVF bracket is too short.
It means you're facing up towards the ceiling when you're shooting, and if you're walking over tricky ground, you or the camera could...die. Either that or you shoot looking at the subject, and have to glance up to look at the EVF image.

I'm yet to see a solution that can get the viewfinder in close enough to the body for my right eye's liking ( I've seen shots where the operator's head is tilted off to the left to get there), and low enough to work with the camera high on the shoulder like this.
It's partly because the EVF mount is having to be mounted onto the right side of the EVF, and there's a great thickness of metal on the EVF mount for adjustment.

The height of the lens in this shot of the ET rig is good - right on eye height, but because the thread on the EVF is off to the left of the EVF, and the mount needs all that extra metal for adjustment... you can see the result. It looks awful.

I can't see how this setup could be used properly, despite people's glowing reports, as all the bits just don't line up.
Steve Pizzo, or anyone at ET - has there been any advancements since this picture's been taken? I ask all this fully respecting that you are the best Red One Accessory maker on the planet.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Elements Hand Held rig, which has evolved a great deal since the image you've posted, makes the best of a very bad ergonomic situation. The R1's design from a hand held perspective must be the orphan love child of a cinder block and an Arri 3. ( Love the camera, the company, the images, big fan, bad-ass, etc. it just sucks for handheld )

The Epic / Scarlet look like they will be much improved. I can't wait.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Cail Young]

It doesn't look like Steve's set up the EVF mount the way I do - the piece attached to the horizontal adjustment rod can be attached to allow about 5" of drop from that point, whereas he's used it 90° rotated to allow for more fore-aft movement. This would definitely get the EVF low enough - if you can fit the clutch in next to your lens.

 

[Sam Roberts]

Like post, hand held seems to be an afterthought with the RED 1. When I first started looking at renders of the camera last year one of the first things I thought was... "how the hell can you hand hold that!?"

Must of been those big ol side handles on the left side!:biggrin:

ET's EVF mount is good and solid but in making it so they gave up the mobility of the original RED arm. Doing my pre purchase research there seemed to be some kind of great need for a new way of mounting the EVF and I almost bought the ET EVF mount thinking it must be a "gotta have" add on for hand held.

But it's pricey and I thought I'd wait to see just how bad the RED arms were when my camera arrived. To my surprise they aren't bad at all, both for the EVF and the LCD. Lots and lots of mobility in 3 dimensions. And it is possible to use two at a time on both the EVF or LCD if you want. And no having to crink your neck over to see the viewfinder. And you have many options when it comes to mounting points ...top...side....bottom etc.

I'd advise anyone buying the camera to try the RED Arms first before spending money on something they may not need.

On the other hand, the RED hand held system (dovetail etc) is very tippy and uncomfortable. ET's shoulder mount is really nice and I would consider it or something like it, a must have for hand held.

 

[Brook Willard]

I see a lot of people rigging their EVFs incorrectly like this. Rather than lowering them vertically, they tilt them down.

The EVF mount allows you to slide the EVF straight down to the appropriate height to be level with your face. You will have to slide the EVF farther forward in order for this to work. On smaller lenses, the EVF will interfere with the follow focus or matte box when it's arranged like that... that's the big bummer.

As Matt said, the new cameras seem to be much more elegantly designed.

To me, as badass as the ET handheld system is, the best solution I've found is to just lose everything off of the bottom of the camera [save a custom low-profile bridge plate that extends under the lens mount with rod channels] to lower the center of gravity as much as possible. As brilliantly engineered and comfortable as the ET rig is, the extra ~2" of lens height that it gives doesn't fit completely with my operating style. When I'm using the ET rig, I prefer their softest shoulder pad to lower the CG as much as possible.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Try this:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23502

 

[Steve Gibby]

That was a very early pic of the ET hand held prototype. I set it up quickly on a time budget, and had an assistant snap that pic and a few others.

Yes, the EVF is adjusted high in that pic. I've been hand holding professional camera systems for somewhere over 30 years, and I was well aware that the EVF was adjusted high that day. That said, there are some types of shots where I actually prefer to have the EVF adjusted a bit higher (or lower). It depends on the shot I'm after.

The cool thing about adjusting and tuning the ET EVF mount is that the mount has a 5" vertical slide bar, a different 6" horizontal slide bar, a 6" mounting-to-camera 19mm cross rod, and also a vertical swing tension knob. Between all these adjustment points you can get the EVF about anywhere you want it - vertically, horizontally, laterally, and in tilt angle.

Beyond all those adjustments, the brace itself has multiple adjustment points (rosettes, knobs, V-plate, etc.) that allow you to adjust the ergonomics just about any way you want them.

Here are a few updated pics with the EVF adjusted much lower, on a horizontal axis with the lens. In this configuration there is no need to tilt your head up or cant it sideways. Sports and documentaries of various kinds are some of the genres in which I shoot a lot of hand held. When you shoot those you almost always leave your off-eye open so you can see what's coming at you (for safety), and definitely when you walk with the camera to keep from tripping over obstacles. For off-eye open hand held I also like having my off-eye canted a bit inward to the center of the image for the same reason. That's where the inward-outward from the camera body adjustment with the top rod comes into play.

In these pics my head is nearly straight forward, the lens is on the level of the EVF, the rig has been balanced front/back by sliding it on the rig's V-plate, the center of gravity is low (EVF & battery low), and the right/left balance is excellent with the the battery counterbalancing the EVF.

There is also plenty of room for my left hand to adjust the lens as needed. Don't assume that everyone uses a matte box or follow focus when hand held - in many genres they are simply not necessary. There is an inverse relationship between weight and bulk of a rig and the mobility it affords. The heavier/bulkier the rig, the less mobile it is - the lighter/more streamlined the rig, the more mobile it is. Adding a MB and FF for certain shots and genres simply reduces the mobility of the operator - and for certain types of shots and productions that can be a bad choice.

I do agree that the RED EVF, even though it is excellent optically, and a great aid to shooting, especially when using 1:1 image magnification, is long, bulky and heavy. In certain genres and shot types, when hand held using a MB and FF, the the EVF can get in the way of the operator using the FF and MB. The newly proposed RED Bomb EVF will solve that situation nicely - it will be much smaller than the current EVF - and it will also be 1080p.

The smaller, modular, flexible design of the new DSMC line of cameras and accessories should make them easier to rig for hand held shooting. I'll look forward to that. That being said, I've been testing and using the ET HH rig with RED One for six months now, in many configurations and adjustments, and I've had very good luck with it on a wide variety of professional productions. I disagree that RED One isn't well suited for hand held work, in fact, with the ET HH rig I have been extremely happy shooting hand held with RED One.

EDIT: Yes, if you need more vertical or horizontal travel on the EVF you can get the extension bar from ET, as per the video link Shawn has posted. I'm not using the extension bar in the new pics posted. In these pics I'm using the stock 5" vertical bar. In the side view pic, you'll notice the two stainless screws that mount the vertical bar to the bracket that holds the horizontal 19mm rod assembly. I have the screws in the top two holes available, and the entire EVF mount in low-mount mode, with the clutch knob facing inward toward the lens. This is as low a vertical configuration for the EVF as possible without going to the extension bar setup. In my experience, once you get the right tension drag on the clutch knob, you rarely have to re-adjust it. No, its not in the way of me adjusting the iris ring as needed.

 

[eltech]

Open invitation from ET to Mark Pugh and all REDUSERS

Open invitation from ET to Mark Pugh and all REDUSERS

Well, there is not a lot to say after Gibby's clear and thorough post. Steve has been putting our Hand Held Rig through the wringer from the beginning and his comments and feedback along with that of many other professionals have helped us refine the system. One thing you can be sure of with Steve Gibby, if an accessory doesn't improve his workflow, you won't see it on his camera.

For an additional perspective from another very experienced professional cinematographer here are comments from Geoff Boyle originally posted on CML:

"OK, I've had the Element Technica shoulder mount for 2 days now, I'm using it with a RED, which it was designed for, but it could be used with any camera.

So far I've used a RED and an Arri shoulder mount and have been having great difficulty, they were unstable and uncomfortable.

The ET has, as I said on set today, made me as happy as a pig in shit.

It can be adjusted for curve and tilt of shoulder, hey! We're not all members of the master race and perfectly square, some of us have shoulders that droop down and curve inwards. I can compensate for my deformities with the ET mount!

I finished today and realised that my back didn't ache, I know, I've insisted that all low angle hand-held is done with CF cards and primes but even so, I've been hand-held on my shoulder for most of the day with the usual array of trash attached to the camera and I don't hurt!

This is the first day I've been able to say this in five weeks.

Run don't walk to ET and get one!"
(re-printed with permission from CML and Geoff Boyle)


We've put a lot of energy into creating a system that is so adjustable and configurable that it can be easily adapted to any shooting style from cinema to ENG/EFP to doco or anything in between.

Here are a few photos showing our rig in various configs. ...and yes, that is Geoff Boyle showing off the "hands free" mode. The zoom config (sent in by Alex Hanawalt) weighs in at 45lbs and is 5' long. Finally there is Chris Burket showing the rig stripped down with the dovetail mounted directly to the bottom of the camera for the lowest profile. (no bridgeplate)

We realize that REDUSERS are scattered around the globe but should you find yourself in Southern California, know that our doors are open. Anyone is welcome to come by and take any of our gear for a test drive.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Here are a few photos showing our rig in various configs. ...and yes, that is Geoff Boyle showing off the "hands free" mode. The zoom config (sent in by Alex Hanawalt) weighs in at 45lbs and is 5' long. Finally there is Chris Burket showing the rig stripped down with the dovetail mounted directly to the bottom of the camera for the lowest profile. (no bridgeplate)

Stephen, where are those photos at?

 

[Shawn Booth]

Hand Held Video

 

[Mark Pugh]

Well, there is not a lot to say after Gibby's clear and thorough post. Steve has been putting our Hand Held Rig through the wringer from the beginning and his comments and feedback along with that of many other professionals have helped us refine the system. One thing you can be sure of with Steve Gibby, if an accessory doesn't improve his workflow, you won't see it on his camera.

For an additional perspective from another very experienced professional cinematographer here are comments from Geoff Boyle originally posted on CML:

"OK, I've had the Element Technica shoulder mount for 2 days now, I'm using it with a RED, which it was designed for, but it could be used with any camera.

So far I've used a RED and an Arri shoulder mount and have been having great difficulty, they were unstable and uncomfortable.

The ET has, as I said on set today, made me as happy as a pig in shit.

It can be adjusted for curve and tilt of shoulder, hey! We're not all members of the master race and perfectly square, some of us have shoulders that droop down and curve inwards. I can compensate for my deformities with the ET mount!

I finished today and realised that my back didn't ache, I know, I've insisted that all low angle hand-held is done with CF cards and primes but even so, I've been hand-held on my shoulder for most of the day with the usual array of trash attached to the camera and I don't hurt!

This is the first day I've been able to say this in five weeks.

Run don't walk to ET and get one!"
(re-printed with permission from CML and Geoff Boyle)


We've put a lot of energy into creating a system that is so adjustable and configurable that it can be easily adapted to any shooting style from cinema to ENG/EFP to doco or anything in between.

Here are a few photos showing our rig in various configs. ...and yes, that is Geoff Boyle showing off the "hands free" mode. The zoom config (sent in by Alex Hanawalt) weighs in at 45lbs and is 5' long. Finally there is Chris Burket showing the rig stripped down with the dovetail mounted directly to the bottom of the camera for the lowest profile. (no bridgeplate)

We realize that REDUSERS are scattered around the globe but should you find yourself in Southern California, know that our doors are open. Anyone is welcome to come by and take any of our gear for a test drive.

Hi Steven
First let me say that I appreciate that ET makes the best of everything in the world of Rd accessories.

What worries me is that the EVF, in just about every solution I've seen, EF and non-ET, is too far out from the camera body. In the first shot of gibby I posted, the camera is positioned up on the meat of the shoulder.
In your ET demo video, have a look at where the Shoulder mount is on Chris Burket's shoulder when he says "where it's most comfortable."
In the shot Gibby posted in this thread, to show his now straightened spine, the camera is forced way out over the collarbone/ right arm bone, and the battery is out in space (to counter the weight of the EVF).

I understand all this is caused by the design of the EVF.
All other modern cameras I can think of, film, video and HD, don't have this hurdle ...
If people are going to be using the current EVF with Scarlets or Epics, they are going to be facing exactly the same problems.
I guess what I wish for is a clutch mechanism on the EVF mount to be much slimmer, to save an inch or so of width.

Steve can you respond to what I'm specifically raising here? - with respect, the quotes you posted above, about the rig in general, don't help me here on this one.

... and yes I have been to your factory in LA - met you there back in January, took away a prototype cheeseplate ... you guys are great... I look forward to trying your HH rig.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Mark, you really feel the EVF is too far out even when you adjust the the mount as far dumb side as possible? That puts the EVF snug against the body.

In the video, I'm pretty sure Chris meant "where it's comfortable" for you the operator.

The original post - the EVF mount can be adjusted to be lowered and pushed forward. It's all in how you position the piece that slides into the camera mount. Perhaps a video is needed to further explain proper EVF Mount usage...
It has taken me some time and usage to fully appreciate it.

I am assuming you do not have the mount?

 

[Mark Pugh]

Mark, you really feel the EVF is too far out even when you adjust the the mount as far dumb side as possible? That puts the EVF snug against the body.

In the video, I'm pretty sure Chris meant "where it's comfortable" for you the operator.

The original post - the EVF mount can be adjusted to be lowered and pushed forward. It's all in how you position the piece that slides into the camera mount. Perhaps a video is needed to further explain proper EVF Mount usage...
It has taken me some time and usage to fully appreciate it.

I am assuming you do not have the mount?

Hi Shaun -
I use the EVF mount regularly
It's impossible for the EVF to be snug against the camera body due to it's own design, and thick clutches on the mount for swiveling the EVF, etc... that's my point.
In the video, Chris plays with the mount on the meat of the shoulder, but never out over his arm, away from his spine/ center of balance/ where Gibby has to have it to have his head straight.

Stating the obvious here:
You carry around any weight on your shoulder - a sack of potatoes, whatever, you'll want to carry that weight as close to the spine as possible. It's ergonomic. That's why women carry pots of water on their head - above their spine. It's why steadicam is such hard work...

 

[Shawn Booth]

1/2" off from snug, but I see your point...

Shawn

 

[Mark Pugh]

1/2" off from snug, but I see your point...

Shawn

1/2 an inch is less than just the bracket that is on the actual mount.
Arri 435, Sony HD-cam -Arri SR3 - if you hand hold these cameras, the body is snug against your cheek.

Maybe what I'd really like, is to be able to buy a very lightweight, slim profile mount that does the job for handheld specifically, where by definition, you don't need much adjustment, but correct positioning close to the camera body is really beneficial.

MP

 

[Mark Pugh]

Can we change the name of this thread? It targets Element Technica, perhaps unfairly. The issue is not specific to ET's handheld rig.

 

[Rick Darge]

Mark, have you tried positioning the ET EVF clutch in front of the lens mount? When I use the ET HH rig, I position the clutch there, which gets me that extra half inch into the body. I like to have the entire body as far back as possible when operating to evenly distribute all of the weight on my shoulder.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mark,

In both the pics on this thread of me with the rig on my shoulder the pad is sitting directly over my trapezious muscle - exactly where I like to have it. I've shot an entire career of hand held work placing large camera systems in exactly that same place - directly over my trapezious muscle. If you look at the pics, the distances between my neck and the inside edge of the camera, and the outside of the camera and the far edge of my arm is about the same. The pad apparatus has easy adjustments where you can cant the pad to the angle of your trapezious, and also the toe in/toe out angle of the pad.

Each cinematographer has their own comfort zone for shoulder rig placement, based on their physique and level of physical conditioning. Because I do a lot of hand held, I work out daily to stay in good shape - thus the position of the rig on my shoulder in those pics is quite comfortable for me - I'm 6'2" and 205 pounds.

Sure, weight down the spine is ideal, and yes, women carry water on top their heads in the 3rd world - but have you ever seen anyone carry a pro camera system directly on top of their head? Me neither...

No matter what you do, your spine is going to be slightly imbalanced when you shoulder hold a camera system. In the last pic I posted the camera is perfectly balanced weight wise on my shoulder muscle - low center of gravity (can make it even lower by directly mounting camera to the V plate) , right/left balance, and front/back balance.

Close to the head is good, but for me and most of the hand held shooters that work with me and for me, the rig comfortably positioned in the center of the trapezious muscle is where we want it.

As Richard and Shawn have mentioned in this thread, you can adjust the ET EVF mount clutch to be ahead of the camera body and buy yourself some more room to slide the EVF closer to the camera. Sometimes I do that, sometimes I don't.

Over a 6 month span I've shot tons of entire days hand held with RED One on the ET HH prototype rig, and my result was exactly as Geoff Boyle reported in the quote Stephen posted - comfortable all day and no back problems.

You seem like an experienced guy, and I can respect that. Its tricky to analyze photos when you haven't used the rig. I'd suggest you get your hands on one of the ET HH rigs, which are now shipping, and test it out for yourself with RED One. After that I'd be surprised if your opinion didn't parallel that of mine, Geoff Boyle, and a sizable group of other highly experienced hand held shooters who have been using the rig.

If I was down there in Oz (I've been many times for extended production trips) I'd be happy to hook up with you so you could get a hands on trial of the rig. I don't know if I'll be there anytime soon, but if I am I'll come and find you.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Mark,

In both the pics on this thread of me with the rig on my shoulder the pad is sitting directly over my trapezious muscle - exactly where I like to have it. I've shot an entire career of hand held work placing large camera systems in exactly that same place - directly over my trapezious muscle. If you look at the pics, the distances between my neck and the inside edge of the camera, and the outside of the camera and the far edge of my arm is about the same, the pad apparatus has easy adjustments where you can cant the pad to the angle of your trapezious, and also the toe in/toe out angle of the pad.

Each cinematographer has their own comfort zone for shoulder rig placement, based on their physique and level of physical conditioning. Because I do a lot of hand held, I work out daily to stay in good shape - thus the position of the rig on my shoulder in those pics is quite comfortable for me - I'm 6'2" and 205 pounds.

Sure, weight down the spine is ideal, and yes, women carry water on top their heads in the 3rd world - but have you ever seen anyone carry a pro camera system directly on top of their head? Me neither....

No matter what you do, your spine is going to be slightly imbalanced when you shoulder hold a camera system. In the last pic I posted the camera is perfectly balanced weight wise in my shoulder muscle - low center of gravity (can make it even lower by directly mounting camera to the V plate) , right/left balance, and front/back balance.

Close to the head is good, but for me and most of the hand held shooters that work with me and for me, the rig comfortable positioned in the center of the trapezious muscle is where we want it.

As Richard and Shawn have mentioned in this thread, you can adjust the ET EVF mount clutch to be ahead of the camera body and buy yourself some more room to slide the EVF closer to the camera. Sometimes I do that, sometimes I don't.

Over a 6 month span I've shot tons of entire days hand held with RED One on the ET HH prototype rig, and my result was exactly as Geoff Boyle reported in the quote Stephen posted - comfortable all day and no back problems.

You seem like an experienced guy, and I can respect that. Its tricky to analyze photos when you haven't used the rig. I'd suggest you get your hands on one of the ET HH rigs, which are now shipping, and test it out for yourself with RED One. After that I'd be surprised if your opinion didn't parallel that of mine, Geoff Boyle, and a sizable group of other highly experienced hand held shooters who have been using the rig.

If I was down there in Oz (I've been many times for extended production trips) I'd be happy to hook up with you so you could get a hands on trial of the rig. I don't know if I'll be there anytime soon, but if I am I'll come and find you.

Hi Steve
I think starting this thread using those pictures, that you kindly posted for the benefit of Redusers, was quite a laspe of judgement on my part, and I apologise. I was trying to raise the issue of the trickyness of EVF placement, and as I was looking at images and that videos that had been posted to advertise the HH setup, well, I felt that I saw things that worried me.
I hooked my concerns onto your pics and the ET rig because it's a well known rig, and indeed the best option out there. Thought it'd be a good conversation starter. However, I wouldn't appreciate someone posting pics of myself in action and pointing out issues, and I apologize again.

It still does worry me that in general it's hard for a mount to get the current EVF close to the body.
As I said, I feel this problem is because of the design of the EVF, not because of ET.
However it seems the general feeling is there's no problem...

I'm raising these things because I'm trying to be constructive, and because I'd loke to look forward to many happy years shooting with the Epic.
Like everyone else who posts concerns, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, just trying to make things better.
I've got a big day's shooting of hand-held tomorrow, with the ET mount (but unfortunately not the ET shoulder pad).
I'll be happy to report afterwards, that I'm totally wrong.
Maybe I'll post a picture of myself, so everyone can pull apart my style

(((...I'm sorry - I can't help myself ...I also worry about those renders that have been posted of the Epic and Scarlet, that have Red's new shoulder mount attached to the top rods, and the EVF heading towards the operator's chin. There were lots of responses from folks going gaga (because it looks cool, low center of gravity),

It seems to me that design at this stage should be based on putting a dummy body on the shoulder, in the right position, and a dummy eyepiece on the the operator's eye, then saying to oneself OK that's were the things have to be - how do we connect them?
With all respect to those involved, I just don't see much evidence of that kind of thought in those renders.
I haven't read that anyone else has an issue with those renders. So maybe I've got it all wrong. I'd like to be proven wrong by seeing someone with a dummy rig set up like that, with the camera on their shoulder, shoulder mount on the top rods, and eye on eyepiece.)))

 

[Rick Darge]

Mark, you really just have to saddle up and try the rig out for yourself. Take Gibby up on his offer or fly over to the states and pay a visit to the ET lab. Stephen, Hector, Chris and all the other guys that work there are really friendly and are very passionate about what they're doing. The ability to adjust the shoulder mount and dovetail to your shoulder muscle is lightyears ahead of current HH Red setups. I test drove it for a 2 day shoot more than a month ago, and it was phenomenal.