One fear...

[Julio Quintana]

Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?

Maybe people just something to whine about… I was leery of the updated announcements before they happened—but only because they came so quickly on the heals of a major announcement.

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

I actually shot some stuff last night just to test the Color workflow, and it's unbelievable. I love this camera and wouldn't pay double for higher resolutions or framerates.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

My point is the Epic is half a year from Est. completion so there is no basis for rental numbers at this point.

There is president, which tells a lot. Camera bodies typically rent for 3-5% of the new value per day, which puts a naked R1 at $525-$875, which is about what you typically find. More durable gear like sticks and glass is more like 2%-4%/day.

Scarcity or saturation moves the price around of course, which is what we are seeing with $300/day bodies, but the fact is that its really hard to make a serious return on investment if that is your price. The mindset is 'ill lower the price and undercut the market, thus getting more rentals for less money and ill be fine'. However when a market is saturated to the point where people undercut the base 3-5% numbers, lots and lots of people are doing it, so they are competing with too many cameras over too few jobs, and end out renting the camera for less money—but not really more often. After a year of this is pretty hard to justify the cost-to-return, and the camera gets sold.

I think we'll see a more reasonable number of Ones and Epics compared to the number of jobs that want to use them then we have this year. Scarlets will open up newer markets, like event shooters and TV, etc. But I think we'll see a lot of people jump ship with regards to continuing down the R1 product line without a real business plan.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

Honestly the biggest reason I'm moving to the DSMC system is for the erginomics (if it keeps the current design). I've heard nothing but complaints from DPs and Ops about what a pain in the back handheld is with the R1. These guys are in this for there careers, and they avoid lower back pain. Any job where the camera lives on the crew's shoulder is going to insist the new system, and well they should.

 

[Tobias Roediger]

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

I actually shot some stuff last night just to test the Color workflow, and it's unbelievable. I love this camera and wouldn't pay double for higher resolutions or framerates.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I totally agree with you that the RED One will be more than enough for quite a while. If I owned one it would be a rough choice whether to upgrade or not. My point was just a $2k a day Epic rental rate is, at this point, conjecture since the camera isn't out yet.

 

[Brook Willard]

Matt Uhry brought up another point that I skipped in my original post: the RED ONE is still around and will be in multiple configurations.

So, to recap:

Scarlet S35
Scarlet FF35
RED ONE Mysterium
RED ONE Mysterium X
RED ONE Monstro
Epic S35
Epic FF35
Epic 645

All of them competing for the same jobs.

 

[Florian Stadler]

Interesting thinking Brook. From a owner/dp standpoint it's a little easier as well as from a rental house standpoint. Tech/owner is an odd combination that has worked for some with the Red one simply because it was released too early into the wild and gained a reputation with producers of needing heavy tech. As a dp I specify the equipment. The difference between red one and epic x in rental is not going to be huge, let's say a 50th (regular rental rate calculation) of the investment, 200$ more. No producer is going to beat me up over that when he is getting the latest and greatest with all the flaws from the Red one eliminated.
A rental house is going to figure out a formula of brains for their fleet (for arguments sake lets say 1 645 2 ff35, 8 epic x, 8 scarlet 35, 2 scarlet ff35, 14 full sets of accessories). The rental house is going to make money.
I have a strong feeling that as a owner dp I would want a scarlet as a backup body/b-cam with minimal extra accessories.
When it comes time for the 645 in 1.5 years I will want one from a photographers standpoint. I LOVE medium format. I will love the creative abilities it will give me in motion too. For me it will be a personal toy first like a car but I'm sure it will pay itself off if I'm having fun with it...
One issue I haven't wrapped my head around is the sensor sizes and the lenses needed to cover. What lenses cover a 30mm wide sensor and are useable for drama style cine production? Will my currently owned glass become obsolete?

 

[Noah Kadner]

I think it goes without saying if you are buying the higher end cameras you better be a well-established DP already or partnered up with an existing rental house ready to consign for you. That or be independently wealthy. It also comes down to whether you plan to shoot your own projects for yourself and maybe the occasional paid gig- in which case the Scarlets look perfect. Or whether you intend to shoot major motion pictures, commercials and music videos for high-end clients. Then the EPICs are what you go with.

But yeah we're talking *serious* dough to put together one of the really high-end packages. Pretty much up there with your F23/35 and decked out ARRI 35mm packages.

-Noah

 

[Darren Orange]

If you are going to get a EPIC 645 and all the fun stuff to go along with it you should almost without question get a Scarlet FF35, the cost of investment is worth it if you are concerned with beating other prices. I see Scarlet FF35 getting used a lot. But also keep in mind your dealing with RC42 vs RC225 that will tell everything.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i guess the scarlet S35/ff35 will be the working horse...
beside slo mo it can do almost 90% of what is needed.
so why pay more?

for epic x
for epic ff35 etc.

talked to some producers/clients....6k scarlet ff 35 is enough
the desire to pay more for redcode2xx and slo mo is not there yet.

my clients do mostly narrative things....so slo mo not needed so much.

guess the redcode 2xx can be an argument though, if we know what it will do.

but epic is just too sexy not to have

 

[Brook Willard]

Let me justify my rental rates a bit.

As I said in the original post, I'm not just talking about a camera body... I'm talking about a pretty well-developed camera body package.

As it stands, there is the RED ONE. At $18,000 for a camera body, a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000 [not including follow focus, mattebox, lenses or support... but including media and batteries]. Such a package rents for about $1,500-1,800/day from reputable rental houses in LA.

Here's a quote I've assembled from Keslow Camera's website:

RED ONE Camera Package $1,200
1 - RED ONE
1 - RED EVF
1 - RED LCD Screen
4 - RED Bricks
1 - RED ONE PL Mount
2 - RED Chargers
1 - Battery Plate
6 - 8 GB CF Cards
1 - Top Side Cheeseplate /w 15mm rod holder
1 - Top Handle /w Extension
2 - 12" Rods
2 - 18" Rods
1 - Arri 15mm Base Plate
1 - Video Breakout Box

RED LCD 7" $120
RED DRIVE $100ea, 3 per camera
Remote Switch $20
Anton Bauer Block Battery $80ea, 3 per camera


Total $1880

Now obviously all of these figures would be wrapped up into a quote. Robert and his guys are downright fantastic over at Keslow Camera and they're reasonable with their rates. There is also the fact that I would likely be renting these items for multiple days, giving me a different rate. The list goes on.

But that's the sort of package I'm talking about for the Epic... give or take. That's where I got the $2,000/d number from. You can also imagine how quickly $30,000 can get spent on accessories.

 

[Tobias Roediger]

Yeah, seeing the Scarlet S35/FF35 as the camera for most of our projects—renting an Epic brain as needed for additional flexibility.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Let me justify my rental rates a bit.

As I said in the original post, I'm not just talking about a camera body... I'm talking about a pretty well-developed camera body package.



Here's a quote I've assembled from Keslow Camera's website:

RED ONE Camera Package $1,200
1 - RED ONE
1 - RED EVF
1 - RED LCD Screen
4 - RED Bricks
1 - RED ONE PL Mount
2 - RED Chargers
1 - Battery Plate
6 - 8 GB CF Cards
1 - Top Side Cheeseplate /w 15mm rod holder
1 - Top Handle /w Extension
2 - 12" Rods
2 - 18" Rods
1 - Arri 15mm Base Plate
1 - Video Breakout Box

RED LCD 7" $120
RED DRIVE $100ea, 3 per camera
Remote Switch $20
Anton Bauer Block Battery $80ea, 3 per camera


Total $1880

Now obviously all of these figures would be wrapped up into a quote. Robert and his guys are downright fantastic over at Keslow Camera and they're reasonable with their rates. There is also the fact that I would likely be renting these items for multiple days, giving me a different rate. The list goes on.

But that's the sort of package I'm talking about for the Epic... give or take. That's where I got the $2,000/d number from. You can also imagine how quickly $30,000 can get spent on accessories.

what i see is that this rates were possible 8 months ago.
but now they dropped a lot....i can rent the same package today for 450-500 $ per day...if its a week the price will drop dramaticilly...i know a rentalcompany giving away this package for 200 $/per day.

i dont understand why people destroy the market....but thats reality here in germany.

edit: it makes no sense for me to buy equipment for 40 k and then rent it out for 200-400 usd /per day


back to topic:

guess the epic can be of interest when it would have something that scarlet doesnt have...
guesses:
640 ASA-1000 ASA
tungsten ? (will not happen)
smooth workflow......when using redcode 2xx
lets say bug free, edl loading epiccine...hehe

but again, beside the rental stuff i just like to shoot slo mo.

 

[Florian Stadler]

200$/day for that package you hear those things thrown around reduser.
I have never seen such a rate nor has a producer come up to me and challenged my rental rate with something like that.
You will not find those rates in Los Angeles, where demand for Red Ones seems to be going up, not down.
Some desperate owners might offer a deal but no one with a brain is going to give away that package for less then 800/day.
Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

 

[Brook Willard]

There will always be people who rent their cameras for embarrassing rates. There will always be "indie" rental houses and "professional" rental houses. There will always be that guy who could never make $100/day on his HVX... and that guy who can still make $400/day on his DVX package.

There is a market for $200 [damn...] RED rentals... but the producers and crew members that are used to living in Keslow/TCH/Clairmont/Otto/Camtec/Panavision land will never give them a call. There's a level of service and support that you will just never get out of "that guy" that is a given from the "professionals". The quotes are there to generalize it enough to keep from ticking anybody off... but the point remains.

I've found that the market tends to separate itself. They can drop their prices and mess with the market all they want... but in the end, if they're trying to play on the biggest productions, all they're doing is lowering their professionalism and worth. If they're playing in their own market... awesome. Lock that market down. But the second they try to drop into a high-end production, something is going to go wrong.

But in the market that does bear multi-thousand dollar rentals on camera packages... I'm just afraid that the low-end cousin camera that can now play in the same market will eat the bottom out.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

200$/day for that package you hear those things thrown around reduser.
I have never seen such a rate nor has a producer come up to me and challenged my rental rate with something like that.
You will not find those rates in Los Angeles, where demand for Red Ones seems to be going up, not down.
Some desperate owners might offer a deal but no one with a brain is going to give away that package for less then 800/day.
Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

yeah its never listed....but when i get out of reds i hire it for 200-450 per day

 

[Brook Willard]

Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

Exactly. Ask for $2,000 and you'll get $1,600. Cut the bullshit and ask for $1,600 straight away though... and you'll get $1,200.

Unfortunately we seem to be getting drawn away from the original point of this thread... different RED cameras cannibalizing their own market.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

There is a market for $200 [damn...] RED rentals... but the producers and crew members that are used to living in Keslow/TCH/Clairmont/Otto/Camtec/Panavision land will never give them a call. There's a level of service and support that you will just never get out of "that guy" that is a given from the "professionals". The quotes are there to generalize it enough to keep from ticking anybody off... but the point remains.


But in the market that does bear multi-thousand dollar rentals on camera packages... I'm just afraid that the low-end cousin camera that can now play in the same market will eat the bottom out.

totally right....i offer complete packages...from gear to post to supervising to finishing.

then producers know that they are paying the skills/service and not just the gear

 

[M Hsu]

Also, a lot of that low end rental market will dry up as indie guys will buy their own scarlets, nikon d95s, canon 5d mkIIIs and whatever else is coming onto the market.

I think unless you're a rental house, buying a red camera with an intended primary revenue stream of renting is signing up for a long hard haul. just my 2 cents.

 

[Ryan Patch]

Well, here another way to look at it:

Your 645 will be $73k

Most of that money will be in accessories. SO, what if you just invested another $7k in a Scarlett S35 body. When people want to get a package for $1200, you swap out the Scarlet body.

Also available is "Sure, you can have my package for $1200"... drive over to a rental house, subrent a scarlett body for $200, then you've got their package for them, you've lost a little money off the $1200, but it's better than nothing. That's the beauty of this whole interchangeable "brain" thing.


As long as you're not conflicting with a 645 job. Also, I'd imagine that your services go for quite a bit of $$? Monetize those!

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Exactly. Ask for $2,000 and you'll get $1,600. Cut the bullshit and ask for $1,600 straight away though... and you'll get $1,200.

Unfortunately we seem to be getting drawn away from the original point of this thread... different RED cameras cannibalizing their own market.

I've also had some concern about this. A lot of the people I work with though just want the best, and aren't going to settle for what a cheaper scarlet system will offer. They'll want more features even if it only costs them a little more. What would be nice is a feature chart that shows the options listed in the rows and the cameras in the columns with an X if that particular camera has a particular feature. If the information is presented very clearly, I think it will help producers and others make choices. The other thing we don't know is if the readout from the sensor in Scarlet will be the same as the readout from an Epic. Do any of the processors in the Epics reduce skew because of their speed? If so, that will help "Sell" an Epic rental over Scarlet.

There are a lot of good questions brought up in this thread.