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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

One fear...

B

Brook Willard

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I know it's kind of asinine to make this thread today, but relax. RED's update today is downright awesome and I'm very very excited. I'll be buying a 645, fear not. Until now, the only thing I've bought from RED are two 3" stickers... so that's a big change. :) So - as always - every bad thing I say is backed up by ten good things. So save the "OMG you just don't get it" and "REVOLUTION!!!" posts for another thread.

A solid 75% of the jobs I do are perfectly happy with three-perforation Super 35mm at 24FPS. The rest require four-perf, higher frame rates or more specialized functionality.

As it stands, there is the RED ONE. At $18,000 for a camera body, a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000 [not including follow focus, mattebox, lenses or support... but including media and batteries]. Such a package rents for about $1,500-1,800/day from reputable rental houses in LA.

I suspect that beyond any Scarlet or Epic camera body, a good body package you'll want to take out on any job will be another $20-35,000. This would include things like a viewfinder, onboard monitors, all modules, onboard batteries, block batteries, riser plates, handheld system, tons of media and maybe - just maybe - an accessory or five that we haven't thought of yet. It adds up surprisingly quickly.

Not everybody will need "everything", but I'm being generous here. We're talking about an owner/operator creating a body package that could slot into a rental house's inventory.

So lets say $30,000 in accessories.

Since I'm saying that 75% of jobs are happy with three-perforation Super 35mm, that means that there are five cameras that fit the bill. I'm going to ignore the 617 as it's a more specialized camera.

Scarlet S35: $7,000
Scarlet FF35: $9,750
Epic S35: $28,000
Epic FF35: $33,000
Epic 645: $43,000

Obviously different cameras have different sensors, but that's a hard thing to explain to a production coordinator.

So now you have five camera packages that can accomplish the same thing... coming in at $37,000, $39,750, $58,000, $63,000 and $73,000.

If you're a rental house, no problem. The DP says what he'll need for the project and the house fits him with the appropriate camera body. Don't need the extra dynamic range? Go for the Scarlet! Think you might do high speed? Get the Epic S35. Need that dynamic range? Get the Epic FF35.

But I'm not a rental house.

"Hey Brook, I'm calling from ____________. We have a job coming up and we want to use one of the new RED cameras... I hear you have one!"
"Indeed I do. It's the high-end Epic camera, I rent my package for $2,000/day."
"Whoa! We got a quote from _____________ for the new RED at $1,200/day."
"Yeah, but I have the high-end Epic camera. It's the better camera that can do high speed, has more dynamic range and has a giant sensor for all kinds of cool stuff."
"No, but we're on a white cyc all day with kids. The DP says that we don't need all of that. Can you come down on your rate?"
"..."

Now obviously certain jobs have requirements and that's fine. It's not like a set of Master Primes sits in a closet dusty and lonely when Zeiss T2.1s go out on a job. I get that. But it's like owning a 600HP people-mover van and trying to get a higher rental on it. Production's just going to go with the normal people-mover.

Another thing to consider: the Mysterium X and Monstro sensors have different pixel densities. That means that shooting 24.89mm x 13.9mm on one camera will give you a different resolution than the same area on another. While we can't guess now, there's a chance that one resolution will decode faster.

We're all used to having post houses in our ear at the camera prep requesting quad HD instead of 4K 16:9... that's cool. But what if they start requesting one camera over another because of the resolution thing? I truly truly doubt that this will be a problem, but it's just a stupid little point to make while I'm at it.

I just fear that the additional $10,000-15,000 I'm going to put into the 645 is never going to come back on rentals. It'd be pretty lame to have to drop my camera's rental price to compete with a Scarlet that can do the same thing on a lot of jobs.

On my jobs, we'll always use my camera. Everything will always fall into place. People will know I have a 645 and will come to me when they need one. I may even park the thing at a rental house. It'll make money, I have no doubt about that.

But what do you guys think? Think the higher-end cameras will have to take two steps backwards just to compete with their lower-end cousins? Think that complete confusion by people looking to shoot with "the new RED" will bone us?

I'm curious to see if I'm way off base here.
 
Brook, I see your point and I understand as making a purchase like this is never an easy decision. I think what I would count on is your reputation at this point, the go to guy when it comes to RED. Not sure about you, but most newbie producers and DP's will ask my opinion first when discussing RED jobs. This is where you sell yourself and your gear to go along with it. I doubt in most situations that a DP is not going to want the added DR of the FF EPIC no matter what he/she is filming. They might however, need to negotiate and that is a compromise that you must gauge depending on your particular circumstances.

Trust me, its never easy plunking down the large amount of cash that it takes to invest in gear so its a bit of a leap of faith. If you think you can keep it busy and earning for you, go for it!
 
I think you're right, Brook.

Maybe RED will include password-protected software locks, so that you can "downgrade" your epic to Scarlet 2/3" specs.

In that case you can get that lower rental, without giving away the higher specs :)

(---> joke)
 
Brook Willard said:
Oh fear not, Mike... this thread is less about me and more about the rental market at large. I do appreciate it though. :)
Click to expand...

I know :-) Trust me, I deal with it in the Bay Area here all the time and watch the rental market just get eaten alive. But we all know that camera bodies aren't the best investment from a rental perspective anyhow. Lenses, FF, etc are good for years and years but bodies come and go with the waves of technology. Part of almost every independent who purchases a body usually has a passion project or two just waiting to get out. Now, whether they do them or not, time will tell :-)
 
if I wouldnt have a RED and need to shoot.
i would use Scarlet s35 o FF35 for narrative stuff.

I use one time out of ten the slow mo stuff on the RED.


but the different redcodes can play a role.
i know rental companys giving away a red package for 250 $/day.

Or Postproductionshouses giving their reds for free when they get the job on the post side.


btw. i like the announcments.
 
Let's say, you need that 1200$.

When you go on the job, and it comes to use the features of the EPIC, above those of SCARLET, you might want say, ok, that is what I charge 2000$ for, so if you want that high speed at this very moment, you will need to pay me more.

May not be the best business practice, but this will certainly educate people, because they will see the difference of features. They still have the option to say no. You just "happen" to have a camera in a camera on the set.

Does this make sense?
 
Some well considered points.
What you are saying really is that the bulk of the investment on any camera package is the accessories not the camera. Except if you are investing in the 645 which comes out as the greater percentage of the package. I think that as an owner operator or a production house you are going to end up with 2 or more cameras. After all if you have the money to invest in a full Epic system, buying a scarlet too is not going to make a huge difference over the long term.
Every job you do will be paying off your accessories and each camera will pay for itself over time which ever one you use on a day to day basis.
 
Well, if you are planning on getting some extra income from rental, wouldn´t it make sense to just get a Scarlet Brain as well - all the other pieces fit anyway, so this is a relatively low added expense. Plus, you´ll be able to have a back-up brain, which is always good.

You certainly have more option than a few years back as an owner-operator of say a Arri 435, who gets a call from a producer who wants to shoot super16.
 
I like the idea of a "dumbed down" mode where owners could selectively turn off features for those lowball productions, but they would also have to be unlockable on set. OR perhaps a mode to leave everything unlocked but log which features are used for billing.

Camera choice isn't always left to the DP. I have worked on jobs where the production company insisted we shoot F900 because the editor liked digitizing from HDCam. Picture quality or camera capabilities didn't matter to them.
 
There have been people under cutting with the R1. I've seen the R1 as low as $300.00 a day and that's fkn cheap!

It's going to be a blood bath with all the Scarlets.

Great post, really makes you double check yourself and the final decision.
 
Brook Willard said:
But what do you guys think? Think the higher-end cameras will have to take two steps backwards just to compete with their lower-end cousins? Think that complete confusion by people looking to shoot with "the new RED" will bone us?

I'm curious to see if I'm way off base here.
Click to expand...

Not off base, I've been having pretty much the same thoughts. Having MysteriumX and Monsrto versions of the Epic dilutes the Epic brand and creates confusion in general, not such a good thing for camera owner / renters.

Whether getting the 645 vs the FF35 you'll see a $10,000+ increase in rentals over the cameras 2-5 year lifespan? It's hard to say but having a few friends and clients that do special venue work and big movie VFX I'm gravitating towards the 645. Probably that big format will come in handy a few times.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Really? So based on your very loose assumption, people must ask to rent an F35 for the price of an F23.

RED is a company, not a camera. Lots of companies have different, similarly named, cameras in a single line. Its not that hard to figure out or explain.
 
The highest end cameras only make sense to me if you're intending to use them yourself, as well as renting.

My clients will seek the best dynamic range, and will appreciate higher fps more than anything else. Resolution above 4k isn't essential.

I personally prefer to work with downsampled footage, as it tightens up and anti-alias' the footage nicely (so I do appreciate increased resolution), and can decrease noise floors and expand the usable dynamic range a little. I don't generally feel 1:1 zooms into a CFA hold up as well as some people do, compared say to a Sony HDCAM with three chips. I have clients who feel the same. Of course, proper downsampling takes time. I do agree a single CFA is the best sensor design though/use of photosites.

Also, I think it would be wise to proceed above 28k with caution (Photoshop has a 30000pixel/2gig limit!). I didn't think I'd ever have to point that out whilest talking about moving images, its a testiment to Reds vision (just remember processors get outdated too..)

I think next year Red should focus some time on lowering Jim' blood pressure if necessary, possibly enforce a compulsary holiday, or maybe just drug him and place him in an air conditioned isolation chamber to recharge for a few days.. i don't know how dictatorships work exactly, but Epic X will deserve the biggest thankyou I can muster, and is a great relief
 
Brook's point is definitely valid. We can see this in practice with older cameras. The Sony F900 is a staple for indie filmmaking at this point, even though the F950 records 4:4:4 uncompressed and a "Superior Resolution". Very few people are willing/able to pay extra for this increased quality, especially since it requires a more demanding post process. You think people are going to pay a premium for resolutions over 4K? I wouldn't.

So following this logic, I think the real challenge Epic owners are going to face is, "Why should I pay $2000/day when I can rent a RED ONE for $300/day?"
 
Julio Quintana said:
So following this logic, I think the real challenge Epic owners are going to face is, "Why should I pay $2000/day when I can rent a RED ONE for $300/day?"
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Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?

Maybe people just something to whine about… I was leery of the updated announcements before they happened—but only because they came so quickly on the heals of a major announcement.

If you are buying to rent the camera, use your freaking head and make some calls to potential customers first. Would you rather rent X or Y?

If you are buying it to film with then figure out what your NEEDS are. Renting it out is just a nice bonus.
 
Tobias Roediger said:
Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?
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Hi Tobias and welcome to Reduser. If you look at the top you'll find a search button. Use it and see for yourself what people have been bitching about. I would find you a link but I'll save you the pleasure. No one is making up numbers anyone who has been here long enough (unlike yourself) will tell you what are some of the craziest rates heard.
 
Ivan G said:
Hi Tobias and welcome to Reduser. If you look at the top you'll find a search button. Use it and see for yourself what people have been bitching about. I would find you a link but I'll save you the pleasure. No one is making up numbers anyone who has been here long enough (unlike yourself) will tell you what are some of the craziest rates heard.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ivan—not that new to RedUser. Been lurking here since the forum opened, recently created an account since a camera is feasible for me.

My point is the Epic is half a year from Est. completion so there is no basis for rental numbers at this point.
 
Here's some real numbers..

My usual day rate is £150+expenses, for my R1 in the North of England.
London is £250+expenses (though travel from Yorkshire is already included in that, as is VAT).
Everything I have is there,which includes two lenses, 2 raids, 1 cf, basic production pack

Tripods, Matteboxes and focus gears and EVF etc need to be rented seperately though a third party.

Hope that helps.
 
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