OK... Film vs. RED

[Brian D. Goff]

as painlessly as possible

as painlessly as possible

I could not resist:


I was on a shoot today and at lunch the DoP and camera assistant were taking about Arri cameras. The conversation drifted over to the arri D20 and then the discussion Film video started. Besides the video look issue, the other argument how come video can not challenge film is because the chips in the camera are to small - this is were I started raving about RED. It summed up to the fact that most of the team still think RED is a hoax. I then told them to go to the RED site and download the film PJ short - silence Many faces turned pale and shy questions were asked:

"the Peter Jackson?" "Did he like the look" and so on. As we went back to work - I was flying an arri sr3 on my actioncam, chasing kids up and down 6 levels of stairs in the new 250mio FIFA building in Zurich - I could not help but to feel sorry for my fellow filmmakers. As I got home I started to work out a plan how to help the classical filmer make the transfer into the wonderful world of RED as painlessly as possible. I came to the conclusion, that RED should develop a "clasical filmer first aid package" with the following features:

The RED film mag mock-up - featuring a small flash drive with a maximum of 4 min. recording time. It must have a moving mass inside, that simulates the unwinding of film, constantly messing up your balance. At startup, it must feature a "gyro" effect, so we "steadicam'er" feel at home.

The RED film gate simulator - featuring a random hair and scratch superimposer. This keeps the need for constant gate checking and the producer can continue to burn money in film insurance.

The RED ocular light fall in simulator - featuring an ocular cap, that is connected with the RED film mag mockup and will superimpose light fall-in under the know circumstances.

The RED video assist simulator - featuring a playback lock (so you can't view what you just recorded on site). And a quality reducer on all monitoring out, so the director can keep asking if the image is realy going to look better after processing.

The RED film processing plugin - featuring a plugin set for FCP, that will simulate at random classical film processing catastrophes. Again requiring the Producer to burn even more money in insurances.


Believe it or not, I started off doing film and I liked it. But I like the digital age even more and am soo happy that RED is true!:red_bandana:

 

[Poi Boy]

Red vas.. I love it ! lol
-A

 

[Corrado Silveri]

I could not resist:


I was on a shoot today and at lunch the DoP and camera assistant were taking about Arri cameras. The conversation drifted over to the arri D20 and then the discussion Film video started. Besides the video look issue, the other argument how come video can not challenge film is because the chips in the camera are to small - this is were I started raving about RED. It summed up to the fact that most of the team still think RED is a hoax. I then told them to go to the RED site and download the film PJ short - silence Many faces turned pale and shy questions were asked:

"the Peter Jackson?" "Did he like the look" and so on. As we went back to work - I was flying an arri sr3 on my actioncam, chasing kids up and down 6 levels of stairs in the new 250mio FIFA building in Zurich - I could not help but to feel sorry for my fellow filmmakers. As I got home I started to work out a plan how to help the classical filmer make the transfer into the wonderful world of RED as painlessly as possible. I came to the conclusion, that RED should develop a "clasical filmer first aid package" with the following features:

The RED film mag mock-up - featuring a small flash drive with a maximum of 4 min. recording time. It must have a moving mass inside, that simulates the unwinding of film, constantly messing up your balance. At startup, it must feature a "gyro" effect, so we "steadicam'er" feel at home.

The RED film gate simulator - featuring a random hair and scratch superimposer. This keeps the need for constant gate checking and the producer can continue to burn money in film insurance.

The RED ocular light fall in simulator - featuring an ocular cap, that is connected with the RED film mag mockup and will superimpose light fall-in under the know circumstances.

The RED video assist simulator - featuring a playback lock (so you can't view what you just recorded on site). And a quality reducer on all monitoring out, so the director can keep asking if the image is realy going to look better after processing.

The RED film processing plugin - featuring a plugin set for FCP, that will simulate at random classical film processing catastrophes. Again requiring the Producer to burn even more money in insurances.


Believe it or not, I started off doing film and I liked it. But I like the digital age even more and am soo happy that RED is true!:red_bandana:

Love this post.

Forgot to mention that special timer that make the material shooted unavailable for some days...

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Love this post.

Forgot to mention that special timer that make the material shooted unavailable for some days...

Add: random film not properly aligned on spool and making dreadful noise in the RED film mag mock-up , making you have to stop the take and replace the RED film mag mock-up with another one - just in case.

And make sure you put black tape on the the RED film mag mock-up because the sun is really bright, and your not 100% sure it is completely light sealed after you accidentally banged it on our last set up...

Edit add: The kit for student/low budget user should come with a set of tin cans that you could put in your refridgerator, simulating film that you can´t afford to throw away - so now you hardly have space for food...

 

[Adrian T.]

I came to the conclusion, that RED should develop a "clasical filmer first aid package" with the following features:

[...]

This is really funny!

Add the following feature: the magazine must be backed up to the laptop in complete darkness. If any light falls on it, the shots will be overexposed, up to complete whiteness.

 

[Steve Gibby]

And don't forget:

- An auto-shutoff for the magic focus feature if an AC is used. Wouldn't want the camera operator to dare to think that he could pull focus on his own for some shots, or the union to go to war over the potential elimination of a position on some productions.

- An auto-shutoff for the magic focus if a tape measure is unrolled anywhere near the camera. Everyone knows that manually measuring is the only way to accurately judge focus, no matter what the aperture is.

- An auto-shutoff for the RED histogram if a hand held light meter is anywhere on the set. Hand held electronics can be trusted in setting exposure levels, but in-camera electronics can't.

:gun: :rip_1:

 

[Brian D. Goff]

RED "instable" filmgate simulator - higher priced version offers more stable images:blink:

RED "film like" rolling shutter:weight_lift:

 

[Priyesh P.]

Actually, friends, all of you have forgot the most obvious things ( Jim will like this ).

There must be two different Red cameras.
Red Mos: produces constant noise and has no audio inputs but runs up to 120fps

Red blimped: sound camera with TC but with max. speed of 40 fps that can be synced in post with a separate TC audio recorder ( this camera is twice the price of Red Mos ) - which ultimately leads to the latest Red product:

Red audio: a harddisc / solid state recorder with TC

Priyesh

 

[Brian D. Goff]

Actually, friends, all of you have forgot the most obvious things ( Jim will like this ).

There must be two different Red cameras.
Red Mos: produces constant noise and has no audio inputs but runs up to 120fps

Red blimped: sound camera with TC but with max. speed of 40 fps that can be synced in post with a separate TC audio recorder ( this camera is twice the price of Red Mos ) - which ultimately leads to the latest Red product:

Red audio: a harddisc / solid state recorder with TC

Priyesh

yes!!:tongue:

 

[mezmo]

sorry guys,
shooting film now,sticky on one side,smooth on the other.
looks good,old and cluncky like me,but it works,everytime.
hang in there for Red, it'll happen, all your digital dreams
will be realized and Jim can run this post again.
Cheers Mezmo

 

[El_Mariachi94]

It's already here...

It's already here...

And if the future is commanded by a bunch of young-guns, then they will be most familiar with digital, they will work around any quirks just as Hollywood filmmakers have been working around the quirkiness of film forever. Whats exiting is that possibly very soon the only factor determine a films success will be the talent and the quality of the storytelling (as apposed to the quality of a filmmakers contacts and marketing strategy).

Dude...it's not coming, it's already here. What we have seen so far (YouTube and video podcasts on itunes) is just the beginning. Hollywood is scared. Viacom has much more to gain from suing Google/Youtube than just protecting their content. Hollywood's only advantage is money: advertising, A-list celebrities, big budget action flicks. But money only goes so far.

My point is...
we're coming for these mother****ers.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't know, when I imagine a future of independent filmmakers releasing all their material on YouTube or for downloading to video i-pods (which is a depressing thought for a cinematographer -- who needs 4K for that venue?), I think of this Onion article:

Independent Film Made By Dependent 27-Year-Old
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28215?issue=4227&special=2000

 

[Alexander Black]

Hollywood's only advantage is money: advertising, A-list celebrities, big budget action flicks. But money only goes so far. My point is...
we're coming for these mother****ers.

That is incorrect. "hollywood" or really burbank, santa monica, etc. are filled with professionals: actors, directors, writers, DPs, gaffers, grips, electricians, scientists, geeks, etc etc. Of course, lowering the barrier to entry for the equipment one needs to produce "1st tier" material is exciting, but don't delude yourself into thinking that all you need is the camera. Good actors are still hard to find, and nearly impossible to find outside of la, ny, berlin, london and a few other places. You can have the gear, but you still need the people.

The studio system exists. Hate it though you might, it's there, powerful, and intent to stay.

 

[Billy Summers]

I checked the Onion article.

Was that real?

 

[Priyesh P.]

creepy

creepy

I checked the Onion article.

Was that real?

I had the same thought. The tone at the end was especially hillarious.

There´s nothing on imdb and the only exact result from google was the same article. There seems to be no "motorfuzz" mag or a mesa county festival like mentioned there.
IMO the second familiy portrait image looks fake - his head seems to replace someone else´s head.

Funny article, anyway.

 

[Phil Maker]

You can't fight Hollywood. If you try, you will lose. Hollywood will always be in control. Money will always rule. If talented filmmakers start coming out of the woodwork because of easier access to high quality tools, Hollywood will assimilate them.

 

[Chris Kenny]

I don't know, when I imagine a future of independent filmmakers releasing all their material on YouTube or for downloading to video i-pods (which is a depressing thought for a cinematographer -- who needs 4K for that venue?)

Well, the low-barrier digital distribution channels of tomorrow won't be quite as low-fi as the current ones. It's almost certain iTunes will start selling 720p content within the next 12 months, for instance.

Ultimately the IT world just provides much more flexibility than the broadcast world or the world of theatrical distribution. In both of those markets, after a few years of work you end up with relatively inflexible standards that then take a few more years to deploy. In the IT world, there's a continuous rollout of flexible products and services with ever-faster performance, upon which new media formats can simply piggyback (because it's all just software).

Consider the fact that Apple's 1080p movie trailers already look better than anything you can get from cable or satellite. Why is that? It's because Apple can encode them 1080p24 (24 fps isn't suitable for all content, so US HDTV networks operate at 720p60 or 1080i60) and use H.264 rather than MPEG-2 (adopting a better codec in the IT world is just a matter of pushing out a software update; in the broadcast world, it requires both consumers and broadcasters to buy new equipment).

The idea of a large number of people having 4K displays at home in five years is not crazy. But they won't be televisions. There's going to be a big push in that time frame to move from ~100 ppi to ~200 ppi for computer displays, mostly because they'll render text so much better. Guess what? A 24" 200 ppi display is 4K. There's also going to probably be a market for 4K projectors, for similar reasons. Combine all of that with fiber Internet connections that start at 15 Mb/s and go (way) up from there, P2P download infrastructure (see Vuze for an early example), and faster computers and cheaper storage, and you've got both a distribution mechanism and a playback mechanism for 4K content in the home.

Of course, it's complete overkill at normal viewing distances, so probably few content distributors will bother. But that's actually a rather interesting aspect of the whole thing. It will be possible to distribute 4K content, even though it'll probably be a small niche market, simply because flexible technology, deployed for general-purpose use, will allow it. If you had to establish new standards and deploy new equipment just for 4K at home, it would never happen.

What I'm getting at here is, in five years or so, it's quite possible there won't be any practical quality limitations in the distribution pipeline imposed by technology or by access to money. Even people with next to no money, who self-distribute, will be able to do so at the highest quality they could reasonably want.

Actually turning a profit on self-distribution is, of course, another matter.

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Dude...it's not coming, it's already here. What we have seen so far (YouTube and video podcasts on itunes) is just the beginning. Hollywood is scared. Viacom has much more to gain from suing Google/Youtube than just protecting their content. Hollywood's only advantage is money: advertising, A-list celebrities, big budget action flicks. But money only goes so far.

My point is...
we're coming for these mother****ers.

What do you have that Hollywood will be scared of?

 

[Thomas Mathai]

The telcos can impose their own limitations if net neutrailty goes away. They want to premium prices for higher bandwith useage.

The studios can easily make deals for the fattest bandwith access, while everyone else may be stuck with minor speed bumps.

 

[Joe Carney]

I don't know, when I imagine a future of independent filmmakers releasing all their material on YouTube or for downloading to video i-pods (which is a depressing thought for a cinematographer -- who needs 4K for that venue?), I think of this Onion article:

Independent Film Made By Dependent 27-Year-Old
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28215?issue=4227&special=2000

I've been downloading hd content from VUZE (used to be Zudeo, which is basically a very nice gui wrapper around the azureus bittorrent engine).
I hope they take off, because like you, I find the low quality look of youtube very depressing). They allow feature length along withtv length (22/44 mintues shows) and are now selling/renting lots of bbc amerca shows, but still have lots of free stuff. Lots of HD promo material.

Note: Vuze is not a player, but a bittorrent file management system. You need to have codecs like Windows Media/ Quicktime/Divx/mp4 installed on your system. Itunes will import and play the various mp3 albums offered.
I recently downloaded and watched the first episode of the first season of Manchild. It was the only episode I'd missed.

Here is the link: http://www.vuze.com/app

Google, believe it or not is a good place upload/download feature length SD rez stuff. I've downloaded Hendrixs' closing set at woodstock and a few public domain movies from the 30's.
IMedia is also sponsoring HD downloads.

But most is still SD DVD rez.

Just have to be patient and hope 1080p via the internet becomes more accepted and widespread.