ODEMAX - where is the info?

[BRANDON JAMESON]

It's manufacturer specific, just as H.264 is now. There are going to be lots of different implementations. However the H.265 spec is now final and I think the last ends are bing tied up. I'm expecting to see some H.265-based equipment in the pre-release stage at NAB. Some of the key players in defining the compression spec have been working and developing all along. As with H.264 on it's release, new products will be somewhat slow to arrive. The new compression spec takes a lot more compute power to encode and decode than H.264 does. So it's not a matter of adapting the codec to existing products, it requires more powerful hardware to run it.

thank you for your wisdom!

 

[mikeburton]

To me the apply of RedRay and ODEMAX was that they are aimed at the Cinema.
Other companies like Apple TV or NetFlex UHD would be for the home which RedRay can do as well but its the Cinema element that is the biggest game changer to me.

Now if you could distribute your film on ODEMAX and the audience has the option to view it in a movie theatre or if they have their own home theatre, bet it monitor or projector and could watch the same film at home or go to a cinema... that's a pretty cool distribution model.

Making films is all about distribution, if you can't recoup your money to produce the film and make some on top of that then what is the point of making that film. And the world is growing with more and more indy films that need a way in. We all can't be the few that work with major studios and have unlimited budgets to accommodate creative accounting.

That may be what it CAN offer as a solution to filmmakers but make no mistake, no theatre is going to waste one of there screens playing your little movie that has no marketing budget behind it whatsoever that no one knows about and no one is going to pay to see. Do you think your local Cinemark or AMC is going to play your film over putting Tom Cruise latest flick on two screens instead of one? Even though it can be done you still have to fight with the theatre system itself and they have to want to show your film and for them to continue to want to show your film its going to have to draw people...everyday! I doubt your going to find REDRAY's in all the independent theatre's across the globe at least not at the current price point and we don't even know what that price point is yet for theatre's? If RED was the distribution network behind there own player they could do like Christie did years ago and give away the hardware to the theatre's to gain market share and force there way in that door, but RED and ODEMAX are two different companies so that's not going to happen.
Not trying to be a downer here. I think its awesome too in theory but when you start thinking about how the entire chain works you come to realize just because it can be done doesn't mean it will be adopted by the powers that be. Its still going to take good old fashioned marketing and lots of it if you wish for your film to be seen and screened in theatre's. Oh, and did i mention that your movie has to be entertaining to watch? The reason indie films haven't sold gangbusters on the other digital distribution networks to date is because typically no one knows about them ie no marketing budget and because 85% or more are total crap waiting to be a free Standard Def, late night watch on Netfilx which you already pay for monthly. IMO, the home is the only place where 95% of independents will be able to sell their movies, but again, there are currently many other already existing, much larger networks for that currently which play on TV's that people own today, not 3-5 years from now.

 

[roryhinds]

I'm not delusional about the power and need for marketing a film. The big thing though is that marketing has changed and is still changing in our social digital age. An indy can capture an audience in ways that don't cost a small country. We have the power to reach the masses like never before.

Spending millions to market a film the traditional way only serves to line the pockets of the majors who own the marketing platform anyways, it keeps the money within their tight cycle and facilitates their creative accounting practices all way benefiting a few. To use a current term "We all want a piece of the Pi"

The film industry needs to change and is changing. We are in exciting times and its up to us to take advantage of the opportunities presented to us.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

That may be what it CAN offer as a solution to filmmakers but make no mistake, no theatre is going to waste one of there screens playing your little movie that has no marketing budget behind it whatsoever that no one knows about and no one is going to pay to see. Do you think your local Cinemark or AMC is going to play your film over putting Tom Cruise latest flick on two screens instead of one? Even though it can be done you still have to fight with the theatre system itself and they have to want to show your film and for them to continue to want to show your film its going to have to draw people...everyday! I doubt your going to find REDRAY's in all the independent theatre's across the globe at least not at the current price point and we don't even know what that price point is yet for theatre's? If RED was the distribution network behind there own player they could do like Christie did years ago and give away the hardware to the theatre's to gain market share and force there way in that door, but RED and ODEMAX are two different companies so that's not going to happen.
Not trying to be a downer here. I think its awesome too in theory but when you start thinking about how the entire chain works you come to realize just because it can be done doesn't mean it will be adopted by the powers that be. Its still going to take good old fashioned marketing and lots of it if you wish for your film to be seen and screened in theatre's. Oh, and did i mention that your movie has to be entertaining to watch? The reason indie films haven't sold gangbusters on the other digital distribution networks to date is because typically no one knows about them ie no marketing budget and because 85% or more are total crap waiting to be a free Standard Def, late night watch on Netfilx which you already pay for monthly. IMO, the home is the only place where 95% of independents will be able to sell their movies, but again, there are currently many other already existing, much larger networks for that currently which play on TV's that people own today, not 3-5 years from now.

You've touched on some key points. In particular, the importance of both a quality product and good marketing.

But the great thing about the ODEMAX system, as touted, is the POSSIBILITY of getting your film into theaters or, I will add, into some commercial venues that lie between theaters and the home. Why couldn't a restaurant host "indie movie night" and show movies from local filmmakers? (One restaurant in San Fran already shows movies). Or a sport shop (chain?) could host a showing of an extreme sports film as a promo event. These things could provide revenue opportunities to filmmakers via ODEMAX.

Back to theaters. Yes, you need strong marketing but it can be more targeted, and thus less expensive, than current film marketing budgets. If you can get 1000 people to come to a local theater, or build an interest among 50,000 localized fans in a bigger market, or appeal to every individual in the U.S. who surfs, then it might prove to be possible to get theaters to provide limited runs for your film. As it stands now, in the aggregate, 85% of seats in theaters go unfilled on an annual basis. Theaters are desperate to find a way to fill those seats. ODEMAX plus your film, well marketed, might help them.

 

[roryhinds]

this is all semantics if ODEMAX is dead in the water (big small medium fish pun intended)

But I guess if ODEMAX really did go limp as it seems then someone else will step up as these changes are coming, its not a question of when, its a question of who.

 

[Scott Crawley]

But the great thing about the ODEMAX system, as touted, is the POSSIBILITY of getting your film into theaters or, I will add, into some commercial venues that lie between theaters and the home. Why couldn't a restaurant host "indie movie night" and show movies from local filmmakers? (One restaurant in San Fran already shows movies). Or a sport shop (chain?) could host a showing of an extreme sports film as a promo event. These things could provide revenue opportunities to filmmakers via ODEMAX.

Let's not foret about the small art house theaters that would love to be able to program a large variety of indie and international product if they could tap into a stream of it. Festival like screenings could become a frequent and regular occurrence.

 

[mikeburton]

You've touched on some key points. In particular, the importance of both a quality product and good marketing.

But the great thing about the ODEMAX system, as touted, is the POSSIBILITY of getting your film into theaters or, I will add, into some commercial venues that lie between theaters and the home. Why couldn't a restaurant host "indie movie night" and show movies from local filmmakers? (One restaurant in San Fran already shows movies). Or a sport shop (chain?) could host a showing of an extreme sports film as a promo event. These things could provide revenue opportunities to filmmakers via ODEMAX.

Back to theaters. Yes, you need strong marketing but it can be more targeted, and thus less expensive, than current film marketing budgets. If you can get 1000 people to come to a local theater, or build an interest among 50,000 localized fans in a bigger market, or appeal to every individual in the U.S. who surfs, then it might prove to be possible to get theaters to provide limited runs for your film. As it stands now, in the aggregate, 85% of seats in theaters go unfilled on an annual basis. Theaters are desperate to find a way to fill those seats. ODEMAX plus your film, well marketed, might help them.

Like i mentioned, the idea of it is very cool. But again, your local movie house is going to need a $1,500 box to do this and the local restaurant is going to need 4K TV's / Projector to take full advantage of it. If that's not their primary business i just don't see it happening. And, if the local restaurants wanted to do this they would be doing it already via Apple TV for $100.00 flat rate which works with their already existing TV or projector as apposed to $1,500 + 4K TV/Projector / Screen costs associated. I don't see REDRAY making the local restaurant all of a sudden jump for joy because they found a sub-business model hosting movie nights all due to this new 4K hardware and 4K resolution that it puts out. If the one or two restaurants are already doing this they have already found a way to make it profitable for them so asking them to spend a large amount of money into the quality of the video seems a bit far fetched. They aren't going to be able to charge their customers more for it, and that's the rub. They don't really care about the quality because for most what they have is good enough. They didn't go to the Jim Jannard school of film, they own a restaurant which they want to keep profitable.

I agree with you that 85% of the seats in most theatre's go unattended during certain times of day ie matinee/weekdays. But still, they aren't going to boot one of there studio pictures off those screens for the indie film presentation in 4K. If they did there would be 98-99% unattended seats in those theatre's

 

[roryhinds]

This restaurant model is the exception not the norm. As Mike points out if there was a good revenue from this then we'd see this already.

The only way I see Indies making money on there films is in movie theatres and through sales in the home.

Mike what would you solution be to Indies who are not tide into the mafia of the studios and want to have their films seen in theatres?
Or what to the theatre owners who would like more of a revenue share from the films they show?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

There is already a lot of stated anguish about filling seats. And theaters are looking for innovative ways to do it. They will "boot" a studio release from a particular time slot if something else can do better. They are already doing it with things like Fathom Events.

IMO you guys are working off of an "old" model - of distribution, but also of thinking. As I pointed out, there is a restaurant in SF that already does this, very happily. And the reason the other venues aren't doing it is because they don't have easy access to the films they want to show, in the proper format; YouYube won't cut that. And, they don't have the proper equipment. And let's not forget the legal hassles. A lot of public venues are still struggling with BMI/ASCAP issues for playing music.

It is a chicken-egg problem of sorts but the mere possibility of having a film easily available for showing (with all appropriate DRM and monetization capability in place) and they can get their hands on equipment to play and project said film, will go along way toward inducing this activity. Nay-say all you want, someone will crack this egg and new models will emerge.

 

[Elsie N]

Something's going on with the Red Player/projector as well as with ODEMAX. When ODEMAX was revealed, they outlined how they had well-spaced hotspots nationwide to service the downloads to movie theater venues and homes alike. They had the business plan all mapped out and were ready for business. Something happened to cause them to go dark. Perhaps something like needing more bandwidth due to higher than expected interest or maybe a tweak in their plan to include other than .RED movies.

Or, it could have simply been that RED rethought the Red Ray Player/Projector and decided to make the better machine before shipping, and that may have caused ODEMAX to delay launch.

I don't know. But I'm confident that whatever the hold-up, it is either legal, govt. clearance problem, or just perhaps a tweak of the hardware or the software.

I briefly considered it could even be a power play by the major Hollywood studios to quash what they perhaps consider a threat to the status quo. But then I remembered that anyone is welcome to use the ODEMAX distribution format and I think Hollywood would welcome more outlets for many of their movies, if not for their tentpole productions.

One other thing I think could be holding up things for both the Red Player and ODEMAX is how is the system protected from piracy? Who knows? That may be the tweak that is being worked on before bursting on the scene.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I agree with you that 85% of the seats in most theatre's go unattended during certain times of day ie matinee/weekdays. But still, they aren't going to boot one of there studio pictures off those screens for the indie film presentation in 4K. If they did there would be 98-99% unattended seats in those theatre's

You missed an important point... IN THE AGGREGATE, 85% of theater seats are empty on an annual basis. That takes into account the fact that many prime time showings are sold out. That statistic tells you just how empty the theatre is A LOT of the time.

And, your "empty seat" argument completely ignores what everyone does seem to agree on; that good marketing is an essential ingredient of success. Poor marketing, no success at filling seats. Good, well targeted marketing, different results.

 

[Elsie N]

You missed an important point... IN THE AGGREGATE, 85% of theater seats are empty on an annual basis. That takes into account the fact that many prime time showings are sold out. That statistic tells you just how empty the theatre is A LOT of the time.

And, your "empty seat" argument completely ignores what everyone does seem to agree on; that good marketing is an essential ingredient of success. Poor marketing, no success at filling seats. Good, well targeted marketing, different results.

And, an ODEMAX client (theater) can show a movie one day, 10 days, however many they want with no restrictions. If they've chosen a movie no one wants to see they can schedule another one on a moments notice. Many theaters that have to show a movie for a specified run may have a full house but as the run continues, most of their regulars will have seen the movie on the screen(s) and won't be a customer again until the playbill changes. ODEMAX gives the theater the option of when to change the playbill, and social media gives them a way to let their best customers know when the change has occurred.

 

[mikeburton]

You missed an important point... IN THE AGGREGATE, 85% of theater seats are empty on an annual basis. That takes into account the fact that many prime time showings are sold out. That statistic tells you just how empty the theatre is A LOT of the time.

And, your "empty seat" argument completely ignores what everyone does seem to agree on; that good marketing is an essential ingredient of success. Poor marketing, no success at filling seats. Good, well targeted marketing, different results.

If a film is well marketed sure, that is a given. BUT, we are talking about independent films here, no? Lets take a very real world example of a film our company worked on that released today, "Dead Man Down". This films shooting budget was approximately 25mil and went overbudget ie the bond company came into save their asses and finish the movie so lets call it 30mil shooting budget. There was easily another 25-30mil in advertising domestic and international...at least. When i went to see it today it was playing in the last theatre of the local Cinemark, (usually the last theatre at the end of the hall is a smaller theatre and one that theatres put films in that have a lesser attendance projected). This film spent 50mil to be a small movie on the screens of major chain theatres. Think about that. It took 25-30mil at least to get that slot and I wouldn't consider that a well marketed film. But, they are all over twitter, facebook etc I know because i subscribe to all our films and study the results of their marketing.
If we are still talking about independent films here (which i thought we were) how much money do you think its going to take to get your film in the last theatre slot of a chain or even an independent? And how many independent filmmakers even have 1 mil to spend on advertising or even $100,000? My point is, i have no doubt that the model will begin to change but you show me where and how that's going to happen and please don't tell me that 1 restaurant in san francisco (Foreign Cinema i presume you are talking about) is the key to independent filmmaker success in the distribution game. BTW, i grew up in the bay area, went to the Academy of Art for 4 years and love Foreign Cinema for the record, however its one of a few that are making it work without REDRAY or Odemax.

Oh, and in case anyone cares Dead Man Down is a decent film. I can't say that about every movie we work on

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Most if not all the "big ones" lied to customer's faces a zillion times before RED was spawned

If you are in a street fight, the rules are do whatever they are doing plus anything else you need to keep them from bashing your brains out. Aka self defense.

With all the bullSt some of these companies fed to the masses I don't give two shts if they are getting poked in the eye by Jannard. Go Jannard! Show them not to mess with you!!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Mike - A fundamental premise about "good marketing" is that the "product" (in this case, the film) be developed (and, therefore, costed out) at a level that is in line with the size and financial enthusiasm of the target market. That is to say, if the film is budgeted beyond the financial capability of the market it is meant to reach, and to which it can be effectively marketed, it is a poorly conceived film.

Again, you are talking abut an old model and an old approach.

I know absolutely nothing about this film. It does however give me pause that a $30 million film had a $30 million "WORLDWIDE" marketing plan. Maybe a $30 million film has to be released "world wide" to have any hope of success but spreading that budget around the world seems anything but "targeted."

I know I won't convince you and I'll stop trying. I honestly believe you are stuck in an old way of thinking. We'll see what actually happens. FWIW - i the new world of indie films - $30 million is simply too much money.

 

[mikeburton]

Terry we can agree to disagree on this. But I will say, however old thinking or not its the current state of the distribution pipeline. If that changes, great. When indies with $250k budgets start hitting the big screen with limited marketing budgets strategically targeted and raking in millions of dollars outside of any traditional studio system let me know. Ill buy you dinner at Foreign Cinema when that takes off with my millions all due to Odemax and eat my words. That's if they are still a company of course.

 

[Elsie N]

They are building a multi-million dollar supper club/movie theater in a nearby town. Someone thinks that's a good model.

 

[ERIC PECK]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/08/movie-studios-sign-on-for-satellite-based-digital-delivery-to-th/

"five major studios have signed on with the Digital Cinema Distribution Coalition (DCDC) to use its satellite distribution network. Lionsgate, Universal, Disney, Warner and Paramount are all on board with the scheme, which says it will provide participants
access to "a host of delivery options" as digital projection becomes increasingly common. "

....

"saying the network is expected to reach 300 locations when it launches this summer, all of which will be equipped with an appliance from video distributor KenCast. The satellite end of things is being handled by EchoStar/Deluxe,"

It seems to me that the train departed, and Odemax is not in it.

 

[Liana]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/08/movie-studios-sign-on-for-satellite-based-digital-delivery-to-th/

"five major studios have signed on with the Digital Cinema Distribution Coalition (DCDC) to use its satellite distribution network. Lionsgate, Universal, Disney, Warner and Paramount are all on board with the scheme, which says it will provide participants
access to "a host of delivery options" as digital projection becomes increasingly common. "

It seems to me that the train departed, and Odemax is not in it.

Not only has the train already departed, what matters most is who is pulling the train. DCDC has the traditional hollywood biggies, who are all well networked and work like a clique if not a cartel. If anyone doubts the truth of this statement, take your movie and try to distribute it through the studio system. See how it goes.

So, unlesss our traidional cinema regular suddenly evolves and starts to prefer story driven indipendent films over mass-market junk, Odemax is not going anywhere. Anyone who has worked in the industry knows 95% -no exaggeration- of the cinema regulars choose which film to watch based on star cast (which is why established actors get paid so handsomely) and marketing budget. So it is all about the almight $, something small and independent creators simply do not have, and having or not having Odemax as a distribution channel does not change much anything. We have always had that rare small budget film that makes it big. Most fail, though.

This does not mean Odemax is not worth attempting, however. It gives cinema owners an alternative, although the way big studios work you cannot rule out that many cinemas might simply "prefer" not to have Odemax. As if it is their decision. Odemax might exist as a parallel alternative for smaller studios and indipendent creators, it just won't be as big (monetarily) as the big studio medium.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

RED has pulled a few rabbits out of the hat at occasions.
And a few have gone back in the hole.

At the moment I am fine following the White Rabbit...

ODEMAX was just so right, but maybe a bit too much so for some entities liking.

It looked like a massive effort in infrastructure to change the distribution-model of high quality media... and Exactly that may have killed it off. As Sony is planning to release (at least) two more rounds of their catalogue.... "$k mastered blue ray" (which is essentially a "better" 1080) and then the 4k media.

ODEMAX is pretty much attacking the very business-model of distribution, and even though they may have had some major players onboard back in december, I can see why they might have pulled out, and how that may have changed the whole premise of the ODEMAX business model/infrastructure.

Locking the distribution into .red and RedRays would probably also be something that some studios wouldn't be to happy with.

RR is a funny beast...

Initially we were dreaming of using it as a R3D "deck" with machine control...