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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Obsolescence obsolete...

Milan S. said:
Please tell me why my 3 month old Redvolt XL module needs to evolve?
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Of course I don't know why- I don't work at Red. Why not wait and see what they have up there sleeve and maybe that will determine the answer.

Milan S. said:
I've been through all the Red upgrades so far, let those long time customers with legitimate concerns and questions speak up if you don't have anything constructive to contribute to the discussion.
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I'm not stopping people from talking. This is a discussion forum. I'm giving my personal opinion, in support of Red. I trust they won't steer us wrong. If you don't, well that's were we see things differently.
 
The Dragon thinks otherwise:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-hz_zKZdnE

"Don't think, feeeel"

Couldn't resist. Please erase this if too much :)

I think sometimes what Red has done in the industry has been so groundbreaking that people lose perspective:

True convergence: the Dragon is a true, without compromise Professional Stills and Motion camera that does both things at the top level:

To prove this alongside the Fantastic work done in cooperation with the New York Times, Red , Jarred created Wolf Magazine- a true showcase of Red's still groundbreaking capabilities

In the motion picture industry, the revolution we all know about, from Che, Crossing the Line to the Hobbits, The Great Gatsby, Gone Girl, etc, but also to the whole cinema revolution in markets such as India, Mainland China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Vietnam...

All this, in how many years?

The good thing is that we the owners, may we be PJ or independent filmmaker in remote location number 4672, get the same care and atention in both future proofing, but also support and continue development on software and hardware. As an indie filmmaker in a remote location number 2029, I have to say thank you, and keep rocking and breaking ground!
 
(mass-production and price) I checked last night to have an unlocked iPhone s6, (I dislike subscriptions!) it goes up to $849 not even the larger one, no tax, etc. Apple has sold 700 million phones according to its CEO.

I grew up in a larger construction company of my parents, there was always the comparison what my father charged the client and what the people working for him got -- leaving out all the costs that arise, even if no business is happening (e.g., Seaonal conditions).


I'm happy that it is produced here in California, and I couldn't think to buy it any other way anymore. I enjoy the creativity of RED a lot. To have someone on the phone/e-mail who knows his/her stuff, that is what we need, and RED delivers here!


Thanks to everyone at RED. …and yes, LEGEND is correct. :o)
 
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Jeffrey M said:
Legend
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If you meant "Legend in his own time" I agree. But simply saying Legend suggests someone whose exploits are in the past. I don't think that applies to RED LDR. Of course we all know that Jarred runs the day-to-day RED shop, but part of being a LDR is delegating authority.

legendary in accomplishments, sure. But not quite ready for Legacy/Legend status just yet, IMO.
 
Just posted something like this in another thread, but it felt on topic here... I rarely post, so this one is kind of long.

Just paid for my Dragon upgrade. Actually using a scarlet dragon put me over the edge, not to mention the weapon perks. People go back and forth about compression, etc. But the 5k 48fps footage I have seen is more than acceptable. The funny thing to think about for me: I never felt like I was out-shooting my scarlet, ever. On a professional stage with tons of lighting G&E, or handheld in a car late at night shooting totally gorilla. It has never held anything back. I upgraded mostly to protect my original investment. The nice perk is the bump in image quality and flexibility.

Anyone else want to chime in here? Unless you run a rental only business, have you honestly felt like your scarlet is holding you back? Or wasn't worth every penny you spent on it? Accessories included. Even if you can't afford the upgrade, you still have one hell of an amazing camera, and it is 1/3 the size of the competition, 1/3 the cost (conservatively) and shoots more usable resolution then their latest.

I'm no fan boy. There are a ton of excellent cameras out there. I just finished working on a film shot on Amira. Looked great, but the camera size, cost, and lack of resolution was frustrating. Even still. The final product looked awesome. No one will complain. When you consider all variables, RED offers something that none of the others have been able to. I am able to own the camera... and I don't have to rent it out all the time to pay for it. It has paid for itself. I was late to the red boat, and it still did. My scarlet investment was recouped in six - eight months.

Thanks Jim and Jarred.
 
Will Wernick said:
Just posted something like this in another thread, but it felt on topic here... I rarely post, so this one is kind of long.

Just paid for my Dragon upgrade. Actually using a scarlet dragon put me over the edge, not to mention the weapon perks. People go back and forth about compression, etc. But the 5k 48fps footage I have seen is more than acceptable. The funny thing to think about for me: I never felt like I was out-shooting my scarlet, ever. On a professional stage with tons of lighting G&E, or handheld in a car late at night shooting totally gorilla. It has never held anything back. I upgraded mostly to protect my original investment. The nice perk is the bump in image quality and flexibility.

Anyone else want to chime in here? Unless you run a rental only business, have you honestly felt like your scarlet is holding you back? Or wasn't worth every penny you spent on it? Accessories included. Even if you can't afford the upgrade, you still have one hell of an amazing camera, and it is 1/3 the size of the competition, 1/3 the cost (conservatively) and shoots more usable resolution then their latest.

I'm no fan boy. There are a ton of excellent cameras out there. I just finished working on a film shot on Amira. Looked great, but the camera size, cost, and lack of resolution was frustrating. Even still. The final product looked awesome. No one will complain. When you consider all variables, RED offers something that none of the others have been able to. I am able to own the camera... and I don't have to rent it out all the time to pay for it. It has paid for itself. I was late to the red boat, and it still did. My scarlet investment was recouped in six - eight months.

Thanks Jim and Jarred.
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And now compare it to the C300 which was released at the same time at the same cost (if you add the LCD and SSDs). Those guys can buy a new one after NAB and I still doubt it will have the same image quality compared to scarlet. Not to mention .r3d. To me that little cam changed my whole life. Thx to Red.
 
Jarred Land said:
I dont think people understand how much it costs to make things... specially in the low numbers that the industry we are in are part of produces.

They don't understand the cost of R&D. They look at their phone and say " its a 5" LCD for $500. And it does so much more than my $3000 5" camera LCD. Those camera manufactures must be ripping us off!

The reality is that phone they are making 10s of millions of units so the R&D cost on a cellphone becomes diluted to dollars.

For us, meaning everyone in the upper end camera industry that are making products that sell in hundreds or if we are lucky thousands to you guys its much different.

If it costs 5 engineers a few months to design a board for an LCD thats a few hundred thousand dollars in labor costs needs to be recovered. Just for one board. The 4 or 5 mechanical engineers that need to design the mechanical parts doubles that. And then there is tooling charges... could be 10k - 40k per piece for tooling each cast part. And if you are machining them, you have machines to run and people to run them and power to run them and buildings to hold them. And then you gotta buy all the pieces, the screens, the connectors, etc. etc. all at high prices because of low volumes. Then there is FCC testing and mechanical testing and electrical testing and user testing... all which adds up quick.

And for us.. who proudly make things in the USA, you have all sorts of taxes and environmental fees and all labor bits and all sorts of other expenses that are actually a bit insane.

Then there is packaging and printing, the web team that puts it on the website, then sales team that sells those and the stores that sell them. And thats for the easy stuff. If you are making sensors, or ASICS or other custom silicon like we do that cost goes x a bazillion. You end up with millions of dollars spent before you even start selling anything which needs to get divided up to the cost of the product without any inventory.

For cellphones, yeah they sell 10s of millions so they only need to add 5 or 6 dollars to the cost of the part for a screen or a battery or whatever.

But when your market is only a fraction of a fraction of that, those costs per piece are much, much, much higher.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit and help put things into perspective.
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Hopefully that sinks in for many.


"Overpriced" is a common child of underestimation.
 
Jarred Land said:
I dont think people understand how much it costs to make things... specially in the low numbers that the industry we are in are part of produces.

They don't understand the cost of R&D. They look at their phone and say " its a 5" LCD for $500. And it does so much more than my $3000 5" camera LCD. Those camera manufactures must be ripping us off!

The reality is that phone they are making 10s of millions of units so the R&D cost on a cellphone becomes diluted to dollars.

For us, meaning everyone in the upper end camera industry that are making products that sell in hundreds or if we are lucky thousands to you guys its much different.

If it costs 5 engineers a few months to design a board for an LCD thats a few hundred thousand dollars in labor costs needs to be recovered. Just for one board. The 4 or 5 mechanical engineers that need to design the mechanical parts doubles that. And then there is tooling charges... could be 10k - 40k per piece for tooling each cast part. And if you are machining them, you have machines to run and people to run them and power to run them and buildings to hold them. And then you gotta buy all the pieces, the screens, the connectors, etc. etc. all at high prices because of low volumes. Then there is FCC testing and mechanical testing and electrical testing and user testing... all which adds up quick.

And for us.. who proudly make things in the USA, you have all sorts of taxes and environmental fees and all labor bits and all sorts of other expenses that are actually a bit insane.

Then there is packaging and printing, the web team that puts it on the website, then sales team that sells those and the stores that sell them. And thats for the easy stuff. If you are making sensors, or ASICS or other custom silicon like we do that cost goes x a bazillion. You end up with millions of dollars spent before you even start selling anything which needs to get divided up to the cost of the product without any inventory.

For cellphones, yeah they sell 10s of millions so they only need to add 5 or 6 dollars to the cost of the part for a screen or a battery or whatever.

But when your market is only a fraction of a fraction of that, those costs per piece are much, much, much higher.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit and help put things into perspective.
Click to expand...

Thank you! I was just trying to make this point in a thread on Fred Miranda the other day where some guys just could not wrap their heads around why they should pay $200 for a Really Right Stuff product (or one of mine) when there were WaterJet-cut Chinese duplicates for $25. Even when I told them the Chinese guys had so much lower R&D and manufacturing costs that their profit margins might actually be HIGHER than Really Right Stuff's (or mine) they could not get past the idea that they were getting ripped off or being asked to "make a donation" one of them even said. Like talking to a brick wall.

People think in absolute dollar amounts and not relative value or profit margin. I have every confidence that given the professional cinema market size, Red is making very reasonable profits. But $3k for this part and $5k for that one are big scary numbers so people complain. But $200 after Verizon contract subsidy isn't all that scary of a number, so nobody thinks twice about Apple making a 50% margin on iPhones even though they sell so many that they would still be as well off as any ethical person ever needs to be even if they stopped using Chinese slave labor camps that need suicide nets below their windows and sold phones at a $15 profit.
 
Always do appreciate your perspective and good to see we turned the water enough for Jim to sniff around, must be blood somewhere.

Can I get you two a burger? I'll be at the West Gate. Buz me in.


Jarred Land said:
I dont think people understand how much it costs to make things... specially in the low numbers that the industry we are in are part of produces.

They don't understand the cost of R&D. They look at their phone and say " its a 5" LCD for $500. And it does so much more than my $3000 5" camera LCD. Those camera manufactures must be ripping us off!

The reality is that phone they are making 10s of millions of units so the R&D cost on a cellphone becomes diluted to dollars.

For us, meaning everyone in the upper end camera industry that are making products that sell in hundreds or if we are lucky thousands to you guys its much different.

If it costs 5 engineers a few months to design a board for an LCD thats a few hundred thousand dollars in labor costs needs to be recovered. Just for one board. The 4 or 5 mechanical engineers that need to design the mechanical parts doubles that. And then there is tooling charges... could be 10k - 40k per piece for tooling each cast part. And if you are machining them, you have machines to run and people to run them and power to run them and buildings to hold them. And then you gotta buy all the pieces, the screens, the connectors, etc. etc. all at high prices because of low volumes. Then there is FCC testing and mechanical testing and electrical testing and user testing... all which adds up quick.

And for us.. who proudly make things in the USA, you have all sorts of taxes and environmental fees and all labor bits and all sorts of other expenses that are actually a bit insane.

Then there is packaging and printing, the web team that puts it on the website, then sales team that sells those and the stores that sell them. And thats for the easy stuff. If you are making sensors, or ASICS or other custom silicon like we do that cost goes x a bazillion. You end up with millions of dollars spent before you even start selling anything which needs to get divided up to the cost of the product without any inventory.

For cellphones, yeah they sell 10s of millions so they only need to add 5 or 6 dollars to the cost of the part for a screen or a battery or whatever.

But when your market is only a fraction of a fraction of that, those costs per piece are much, much, much higher.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit and help put things into perspective.
Click to expand...
 
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Think Weapon ... I am Trying ;)
 
Jarred Land said:
I dont think people understand how much it costs to make things... specially in the low numbers that the industry we are in are part of produces.

They don't understand the cost of R&D. They look at their phone and say " its a 5" LCD for $500. And it does so much more than my $3000 5" camera LCD. Those camera manufactures must be ripping us off!

The reality is that phone they are making 10s of millions of units so the R&D cost on a cellphone becomes diluted to dollars.

For us, meaning everyone in the upper end camera industry that are making products that sell in hundreds or if we are lucky thousands to you guys its much different.

If it costs 5 engineers a few months to design a board for an LCD thats a few hundred thousand dollars in labor costs needs to be recovered. Just for one board. The 4 or 5 mechanical engineers that need to design the mechanical parts doubles that. And then there is tooling charges... could be 10k - 40k per piece for tooling each cast part. And if you are machining them, you have machines to run and people to run them and power to run them and buildings to hold them. And then you gotta buy all the pieces, the screens, the connectors, etc. etc. all at high prices because of low volumes. Then there is FCC testing and mechanical testing and electrical testing and user testing... all which adds up quick.

And for us.. who proudly make things in the USA, you have all sorts of taxes and environmental fees and all labor bits and all sorts of other expenses that are actually a bit insane.

Then there is packaging and printing, the web team that puts it on the website, then sales team that sells those and the stores that sell them. And thats for the easy stuff. If you are making sensors, or ASICS or other custom silicon like we do that cost goes x a bazillion. You end up with millions of dollars spent before you even start selling anything which needs to get divided up to the cost of the product without any inventory.

For cellphones, yeah they sell 10s of millions so they only need to add 5 or 6 dollars to the cost of the part for a screen or a battery or whatever.

But when your market is only a fraction of a fraction of that, those costs per piece are much, much, much higher.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit and help put things into perspective.
Click to expand...

If this is true, then how is it possible third parties produce similar products at half the price? Some even include recorders and higher rez displays to boot.

Just curious...
 
Dunkan Wolf said:
If this is true, then how is it possible third parties produce similar products at half the price? Some even include recorders and higher rez displays to boot.

Just curious...
Click to expand...

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
 
Jarred Land said:
I dont think people understand how much it costs to make things... specially in the low numbers that the industry we are in are part of produces.

They don't understand the cost of R&D. They look at their phone and say " its a 5" LCD for $500. And it does so much more than my $3000 5" camera LCD. Those camera manufactures must be ripping us off!

The reality is that phone they are making 10s of millions of units so the R&D cost on a cellphone becomes diluted to dollars.

For us, meaning everyone in the upper end camera industry that are making products that sell in hundreds or if we are lucky thousands to you guys its much different.

If it costs 5 engineers a few months to design a board for an LCD thats a few hundred thousand dollars in labor costs needs to be recovered. Just for one board. The 4 or 5 mechanical engineers that need to design the mechanical parts doubles that. And then there is tooling charges... could be 10k - 40k per piece for tooling each cast part. And if you are machining them, you have machines to run and people to run them and power to run them and buildings to hold them. And then you gotta buy all the pieces, the screens, the connectors, etc. etc. all at high prices because of low volumes. Then there is FCC testing and mechanical testing and electrical testing and user testing... all which adds up quick.

And for us.. who proudly make things in the USA, you have all sorts of taxes and environmental fees and all labor bits and all sorts of other expenses that are actually a bit insane.

Then there is packaging and printing, the web team that puts it on the website, then sales team that sells those and the stores that sell them. And thats for the easy stuff. If you are making sensors, or ASICS or other custom silicon like we do that cost goes x a bazillion. You end up with millions of dollars spent before you even start selling anything which needs to get divided up to the cost of the product without any inventory.

For cellphones, yeah they sell 10s of millions so they only need to add 5 or 6 dollars to the cost of the part for a screen or a battery or whatever.

But when your market is only a fraction of a fraction of that, those costs per piece are much, much, much higher.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit and help put things into perspective.
Click to expand...

Well Said.. @jarred
 
Dunkan Wolf said:
If this is true, then how is it possible third parties produce similar products at half the price? Some even include recorders and higher rez displays to boot.

Just curious...
Click to expand...

Dunkan, note Jarred specifically talks about board development for our displays. To control our camera via touchscreen, you need a board (or boards) to interface between the camera and the display. Therein lies the development costs for an LCD, for example.

My guess is the "similar" products don't control the camera? A big difference between full UI and a video out.
 
Bought the 7" Touch screen the other day.

Sure, it wasn't cheap, but man... What a beautiful image when i put it on my Dragon.

Totally worth the extra $, and my 5" is going to a good friend who needed to buy one.
 
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