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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Not upgrading to Weapon

Tarquin Cardona said:
Thanks Joe. I missed that quote from earlier. I think it would be critical for me it terms of upgrade. I keep being a broken record about this but to take Red into edit in Premiere and have the color tools there is holy **** for me. So I would need the full 4K pro rez goodness to make the leap I think as I love my 'vintage' Dragon:) BTW. For what its worth I have commercial clients for whom I used have to do the whole ProRez thing. In part because they were cutting in FCP7. Now they edit on Premiere and recently just back up the RedRaw. So minds they are evolving.
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I've just left FCP7 as well. As unwilling as I have been to adapt, I'm so glad I made the change.
 
Jarred Land said:
And yes.... All Dragons will be able to advance to the next round.
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How does this quote get interpeted as "Epic Dragon will be able to be upgraded with the next generation sensor"????

it simply means that Epic Dragon can be upgraded to Weapon and then to whatever comes next.
This is consistent with everything Jarred said in the past few months and is also consistent with Red upgrade path history to date.
To read any more into that quote is simply making things up.
 
Yeah, I think Jarred meant you will be able to trade in your Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon towards a Weapon with the next generation sensor. You don't need to go Weapon Dragon first. But based on the -- body > sensor > body > sensor -- roadmap, I think the next generation sensor will only be available in the Weapon body style. $$$
 
Milan S. said:
How does this quote get interpeted as "Epic Dragon will be able to be upgraded with the next generation sensor"????

it simply means that Epic Dragon can be upgraded to Weapon and then to whatever comes next.
This is consistent with everything Jarred said in the past few months and is also consistent with Red upgrade path history to date.
To read any more into that quote is simply making things up.
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Curran Giddens said:
Yeah, I think Jarred meant you will be able to trade in your Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon towards a Weapon with the next generation sensor. You don't need to go Weapon Dragon first. But based on the -- body > sensor > body > sensor -- roadmap, I think the next generation sensor will only be available in the Weapon body style. $$$
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If what you both are saying is true, then Weapon will only sit at the top of the Dragon Family until the next sensor generation comes out.

Milan, you say "it simply means that Epic Dragon can be upgraded to Weapon and then to whatever comes next." I can do that today. There's no reason to think I wouldn't also have that option when a new sensor hits. I don't think that was Peter's question.

As I recall, Jarred said the path to upgrade further goes through Dragon (as opposed to MX). I don't remember him saying the path to all further upgrades is through Weapon, only the path to Weapon - the top tier of the family - is through Dragon.

RED has never had two concurrent body styles where one wasn't being phased out, so you can't necessarily use past RED upgrade programs as a reliable indicator.

Even if what you're saying was true a month ago, it doesn't mean they haven't changed their minds (remember the no Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon upgrade thing?). Based on the quotes I provided, Jarred isn't explicitly backing your claim, either.
 
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Milan S. said:
You can have mine for $34k. You will get an amazing credit of $15,500 for trading it in and be one of the cool kids with Weapons. After spending the additional $22k. Deal?
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Yeah, mine's available as well. Any takers? And hey, you can even buy all the accessories for the same price I paid for them because you know what? They'll totally work with DRAGON (just not with Weapon).

I'll throw in ground shipping.

How about them apples?

Some of these repetitive and totally senseless jibes get really tiresome. It'd help if one respects other's financial balancing acts and not go piss all over them.
 
This is my first post to Reduser so go easy on me lol. I'm planning on purchasing my first Red this year and I was planning on that purchase being the Weapon. I was so pumped for NAB so that I could finally see all the awesome upgrades it would be getting. Well, I am completely underwhelmed now. The Weapon doesn't sound much different at all from the Epic Dragon. Basically, aside from the slightly different body, 8k sensor, and Prores recording, it's the same camera. I'm totally shocked that they didn't even include built in ND filters!!! If I were a Dragon owner there's no way that I'd upgrade to Weapon. That being said, I'm now planning on purchasing an Epic-X Dragon. Any advice from you Red owners. A lot of you sound unhappy since this upgrade announcement. Would you advise the purchase of an Epic-X Dragon or a different camera completely? Thanks in advance.

Kaster
www.Level8studios.com
 
Hi Kurtis

I'd simply grab an Epic Dragon, as they totally rock. The Weapon looks great, particularly for the rental markets with things like ProRes, auto calibration making life much easier for people not used to black shading for different shutter speeds etc.

The flexibility of the Epic Dragon makes it a camera that really stands out today. 6k shooting, great frame rates, wonderful colour science etc etc. We love shooting Raw, but we also have Atomos and sound devices recorders for when we need ProRes.

I honestly don't think any single camera comes close today, in terms of cost and features etc etc.
 
Well it seems we will maybe have another cheaper model of Weapon. Just the body upgrade without the extra power. That would be great.
 
Hi Adrian, thanks for the reply. I absolutely love the image and color the Dragon produces so I think sticking with the Epic Dragon should be a good choice. Which devices record Prores from the Epic? I didn't know Atomos was compatible.
 
Kurtis Imel said:
Hi Adrian, thanks for the reply. I absolutely love the image and color the Dragon produces so I think sticking with the Epic Dragon should be a good choice. Which devices record Prores from the Epic? I didn't know Atomos was compatible.
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The Atomos Samurai & Blade record prores, but I've had better luck with timecode accurate clips (length, start frame) with the Odyssey 7Q. I haven't used the Pix 240 with Epic.
 
Slow motion workaround: You could always change your project timebase in camera to 59.94, and change your HD-SDI out to 1080 60p, then capture ProRes on an external recorder at 1080 60p. Lastly, just re-conform the captured ProRes to 23.976 in your editing system, and you're good to go. The key is to choose a ProRes recorder that handles up to 1080 60p over HD-SDI.
 
I was at NAB this year and rushed to the Red booth for news on the Weapon. I was extremely disappointed to find out that I was only going to get $14,500 credit for my Dragon on a $35,000 Weapon camera which will have the exact same sensor (and still not be part of the upgrade path to the next sensor). I had just spent $9500 upgrading to the Dragon. Getting only $5000 credit for the money I'd previously spent on my Scarlet and Epic seems really low. I love that Red allows upgrades, but paying $20k to get new housing for my Dragon sensor doesn't feel like I'm getting good value... And my Dragon upgrade occurred 1 year after I wanted it.

I definitely won't be doing the Weapon upgrade now... Maybe at some point in the future. But with the low trade in value and incompatibility with many existing modules, doesn't it make way more sense to sell a Dragon and use that cash (more than $14,500 I hope!) to buy a Weapon?

It definitely feels like the Red ideals of yesteryear with the 3k for $3k promise is a thing of the past. Red is moving into the Arri price range. I don't see how this Weapon upgrade could be justified by many owner/operators.
 
I won't be upgrading for a bit since I don't see too many benefits in the new body. Plus I don't see rental prices increasing that much from Epic to Magnesium. But the MG and CF Weapons are very similar in design, the MG Brain and Media Bay weighs 3.35 lbs the CF brain and Media Bay weigh 3.27 lbs.


Michael Gyori said:
doesn't it make way more sense to sell a Dragon and use that cash (more than $14,500 I hope!) to buy a Weapon?
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Selling your Dragon and buying a new MG Weapon seems like a bad idea. Red has offered a lot of bonuses when you upgrade, but it's a steep price to start with. The MG Weapon with the Media Bay retails for $34.5k, if you trade in you get the MG Weapon and Media Bay + Sidekick, Base Expander, Redvolt XL Module, Top Handle, and Lemo Adaptor. That's $4,795 in accessories then a $5,000 credit on top of that. That's a lot of additions compared to just buying the MG Weapon, but it depends on what you think you can sell your current Epic package for too, then buy the Weapon and accessories.
 
The whole discussion about whether the Magnesium will have an upgrade path to 8K/VV seems moot. What the Weapon upgrade paths showed me more than anything is that just having an upgrade path is not enough. It also needs to be an attractive upgrade path.

$9500 to go from Scarlet to Epic was a great deal. $9500 to go from MX to Dragon was amazing. $19K to get a slightly smaller camera body, 2K ProRes and some new accessories is clearly not as attractive. It's more like changing from an LG TV to a Samsung with similar specs and paying 50% of the new price to do it.
 
What is the maximum ProRes resolution/quality/frame rate that the recorders will be able to capture from the Dragon? Am interested in the Video Devices Pix E but not sure (as I await the delivery of my Dragon) what i'll be able to capture with them. As far as I can see the throughput of HD-SDI means that the recorders are limited to recording 1080p ProRes 422 - is this correct?
 
Tyson Perkins said:
What is the maximum ProRes resolution/quality/frame rate that the recorders will be able to capture from the Dragon? Am interested in the Video Devices Pix E but not sure (as I await the delivery of my Dragon) what i'll be able to capture with them. As far as I can see the throughput of HD-SDI means that the recorders are limited to recording 1080p ProRes 422 - is this correct?
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I think 60fps is possible if the output of HDSDI is set to it and the recorder is able to take it and if you set your project frame rate to it in camera... But again, then the proress files and the r3d´s get a 60fps/playback tag...

Also as mentioned before, Fiddling with external recorders to create proxies is a mess, not only for the limited highspeed possibilites but for the not syncing timecodes created on the recorded clips... It´s good for reviewing but not for editing, in the end transcoding the r3d´s or as weapon, internal proress will pretty much allways win.
 
Thanks Bjorn!

Wondering if you could also give me some clarification with regards to the question about quality/resolution of ProRes over HD-SDI - am I correct in thinking that the maximum possible ProRes recorded via an external recorder will be 10bit 1080p ProRes 422?
 
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