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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Not upgrading to Weapon

Domenic Barbero said:
I just dont understand why the hell you would even want vista vision unless you are literally on a 100mil dollar movie with an insane post department and all the support. Shooting vista vision for motion makes no sense in really any way on normal productions. and then like everything else the crop is gonna make it so you have to shoot at 8k to have the benefit i would imagine.
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Just hoping to make my "normal" productions a cut above normal. '-)
 
Just saw the new specs. I just can't justify a substantial cost for mainly a body upgrade that won't improve picture quality. This is where I hop off the train. I have the funds but it just doesn't make financial sense.

I'm actually pretty stoked now though. Should be some good deals on Epic body accessories over the next year, especially redmags since I didn't upgrade to the minis (thank God!).
 
In fact, Red followed the traditional way of development for a company. First they have to offer a product way more competitive than the others to steal the existing customers. Second, they develop their line to keep their first and loyal customers. Then, once they dried the competition, they raise their price.

I know that Red cameras are great and "Obsolescence is obsolete" (the same kind of marketing as Apple's "Think Different", which is quite funny if you're European ;-)) , but it would be interesting to know the percentage of Red owners who upgrade - and can upgrade actually - at every step. In fact it's a little bit sad when you are one of the first believers/adopters, and you can't keep up... I know that you can still be happy with your simple Scarlet or Red One, but with the worry of an unpredictable repair.

Kristin
 
Right now, Vista Vision makes little sense except for big budget theatrical delivery. Personally, I'm less interested in 6K dragon than improved color except for maybe VFX work. 5K has done very well for me. Don't have an immediate need for 8k though I'm sure in a few years it'll be all the rage.
 
In my opinion, there are some things in this upgrade that if they pan out as stated, make the upgrade an important one for certain types of productions.
- Calibration. This needs to happen automatically and in real time in my opinion. The way sets are run these days, there is no time for anything. So trying to do a black shade calibration can sometimes be problematic, even if it's just a few minutes. Simply not an issue with Alexa. So, this is huge if RED has managed to get this right.
- ProRes recording. We all know the benefits here and I suspect will account for a lot more RED rentals. Need to see how it's implemented and if looks can be baked in.
- 3D LUTs. Something that has been asked for and now is being delivered.
- Boot up time. If this is down to just a few seconds, that's huge as well!
- Multiple displays. If independent looks are possible, another huge advantage.

These things alone can make this upgrade worthwhile, but depends on what you need. If you don't need ProRes, 3D LUTs and have plenty of time to black shade, then maybe not for you. You still have the Dragon sensor. a 1/2 stop better than Epic Dragon won't justify it for many but if the overall image is better because there's less noise, more control over viewing the image, etc those things could justify the cost.

I can understand those who don't feel this upgrade is worth it to them. I think the best strategy there is to keep using the camera you have to make money (or art or both), rent the Weapon when needed, and down the line reassess the situation when/if you feel the need to jump to the Weapon and/or 8K.
 
Kristin Stewart said:
In fact, Red followed the traditional way of development for a company. First they have to offer a product way more competitive than the others to steal the existing customers. Second, they develop their line to keep their first and loyal customers. Then, once they dried the competition, they raise their price.

I know that Red cameras are great and "Obsolescence is obsolete" (the same kind of marketing as Apple's "Think Different", which is quite funny if you're European ;-)) , but it would be interesting to know the percentage of Red owners who upgrade - and can upgrade actually - at every step. In fact it's a little bit sad when you are one of the first believers/adopters, and you can't keep up... I know that you can still be happy with your simple Scarlet or Red One, but with the worry of an unpredictable repair.

Kristin
Click to expand...

I see it as RED having grown further and faster as a company than I have as a customer.

But I personally don't expect them to cripple themselves technologically to remain relevant to me. And while I helped them get to their lofty status, still, it falls upon me to catch up.
 
No kidding would be good to have a camera that does not need a mint on the pillow to calibrate. Not sure that is innovation. More like should be able to do that already.
 
Seems like there's going to be maybe a half dozen flavors of Epics out there with the MX, Dragon, OLPF's and now Weapon. Guess it's easier for Apple to keep us current with the iPhone upgrades - doesn't cost as much as a new car ;-)
 
Hal Long said:
Right now, Vista Vision makes little sense except for big budget theatrical delivery. Personally, I'm less interested in 6K dragon than improved color except for maybe VFX work. 5K has done very well for me. Don't have an immediate need for 8k though I'm sure in a few years it'll be all the rage.
Click to expand...

Vista makes a hell of a lot of sense for fashion and big budget corporate and nature/ wildlife and... I'm surprised so many people discount it so readily. Sure, it's an investment. It will require some to acquire new lenses to take advantage of it, many already shoot on DLSR glass, so they're ready in terms of coverage. I shoot mostly high-end corporate stuff, often things that are not very exciting. Vista is going to be a huge advantage and upgrade for me, especially considering the vast majority of my work is hybrid stills/ motion.

Quite honestly, I would be very much on the fence. Even leaning towards not upgrading, if not for the Vista sensor.
 
Elsie N said:
I see it as RED having grown further and faster as a company than I have as a customer.

But I personally don't expect them to cripple themselves technologically to remain relevant to me. And while I helped them get to their lofty status, still, it falls upon me to catch up.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, but it would great for Red to offer a better warranty support for their existing cameras. If obsolescence is really obsolete, why not offering a 5 or 10 year warranty ? Electronic components are cheaper every year, so I guess replacing a MX sensor 5 or 10 years later shouldn't be that costy. This way it would reassures loyal customers, who are currently obliged to sell their gear right after the warranty's expiration date.
 
Kristin Stewart said:
Yes, I agree, but it would great for Red to offer a better warranty support for their existing cameras. If obsolescence is really obsolete, why not offering a 5 or 10 year warranty ? Electronic components are cheaper every year, so I guess replacing a MX sensor 5 or 10 years later shouldn't be that costy. This way it would reassures loyal customers, who are currently obliged to sell their gear right after the warranty's expiration date.
Click to expand...

I agree. The 90 day warranty for the Dragon sensor upgrade was a real sticking point for me.
 
As a long time reduser I have to say I´m happy my ScarletX is not obsolete. Still well working, beautiful picture and the whole workflow (including the first Rocket) is just fine. It´s my tool. A great tool. And the Red service was always top notch. Personally I did not see the point why upgrading to Dragon, so I´m fine with the weapon thingi...For me from the beginning the Red idea was a "pro camera owner" idea. And that´s what updated my skills: To finally have a great cam everyday around and with me. I can still shoot everything with it. The day I shoot a big feature film with a several million $ budget (very unlikely) I will rent whatever fits best. Red opened the mind and the market for 4K and behind, now it´s everywhere. But I don´t forget that I´m shooting 4 K since 2008! BTW I don´t see anywhere a cam with the form factor of the ScarletX or Epic with the same great specs (I´m talking about the real image quality not paper specs).
Sorry if those thoughts are maybe not in the right section, but that´s why I´m not upgrading.
Best
Marc
 
Only too bad that I jumped to Scarlet Dragon because I originally wanted to go Epic first and then Dragon. With Weapon as it stands now, I'm not so sure I would have done the same thing.

There's definitely no way I'll upgrade to Weapon unless I score an amazing job anytime soon - or win the lottery. But as Jarred said: Epic and Scarlet are not going anywhere.. Weapon just gets added to the top.

I just hoped there would've been something like the originally announced Scarlet FF35 somewhere in there. With the VV sensor costing $20K it seems like this is not going to happen anytime soon ;)

When the R1 came out, I thought RED will always maintain that level of indie cinema ownership base and with Scarlet FF35 for $10K on the horizon this seemed to extend into the DSMC / photo area. With the VV sensor now costing $20K the hopes for a FF35 DSMC camera that's "affordable" seem gone. Who knows, maybe we'll get something similar in the future but right now it doesn't seem likely.

On a lighter note:
Weapon doesn't devalue your existing Dragon camera, because it's almost the same thing image wise. And with the price for Weapon being high as it is, the resale value of the current cameras doesn't drop as much.
I'll assume that in time, the Weapon body factor will trickle down to Scarlet and Epic. But until that happens, we still have time ;)
 
I agree that Red should be free to fly forward technologically. But a lot of use get gun shy when the technology arrives 'crippled' and needs to be fixed. Which has happened many times. So will all these things be real like the prores - the vista vision etc - the latter not really being around till next year really - or will they arrive Beta. I am just one of those customers who is not opposed to the big vision, but leery of subsidizing it. If things go the usual path there will be some Weapon X 8K in 18 months and that will be the one to get:)
 
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