Noise update coming soon?

[Antoine Baumann]

i had the chance to shoot with Dragon with old OLPF, or is it actually unluncky, because old OLPF noise compare to new OLPF is really hurting.

 

[Nick Morrison]

i had the chance to shoot with Dragon with old OLPF, or is it actually unluncky, because old OLPF noise compare to new OLPF is really hurting.

The new noise is only temporary...they are fixing it...

 

[David Battistella]

I've got my Dragon and I'm never looking back...

/RANT ON... Everyone needs to realize that, back in the film days, you would need to test a new film stock under a variety of conditions and learn its behaviour... Why does this not apply to digital imagers? EVERY camera sensor is like a film stock -- even within a single manufacturer -- you need to LEARN each sensor you're shooting with. It's really that simple. All of the whining that the Dragon doesn't behave like an MX... well it's NOT an MX... It's a different beast and has its own characteristics.

I NEVER go into a production with a new camera blindly. Hell, I never go into a new FIRMWARE blindly. These boards are part of my daily routine of keeping abreadst of where each camera is evolving into. I don't always have time to share my personal methodologies and sometimes when I do, they seem to fall on deaf ears, so I'm fine with keeping them to myself as well.

I see a lot of keyboard warriors out there bitching about image specifications and not a lot of bonafide production useage being created by these malcontents. Honesty people, get out there and create. Actually DO something, even if its on spec with no money. I respect that. Just whining and not putting your money where your mouth is is downright tedious and boring. And if there's one thing we certainly don't need MORE of in this world is whiny tedious boring bitching... If you want that, get married!

OR take my advice and impress us all by actually SHOOTING something for the love of all that is holy!

/RANT OFF....

boom.

And nd just going over this recent noise tedium lets not forget that it came out of user testing, was reported to RED via REDuser and the support system, RED responded publicly and a forthcoming FW build will be released.

In the meantime I'll emphasize your post by encouraging people to know the effing tool. We all know this sensor makes great images, we've seen the moving, in stills and r3ds. The current issue is reported here by users not to freak people the fuck out, but to give them tips and strategies for getting great results.

Still, I respect that it can still freak people the out, but everyone should really test it before typing. Prior to getting my dragon I comment on what I was seeing in the r3ds from a post perspective, now that I have it and have put it through the ringer I know it's going to react in many different situation.

That at process starts again soon with the new build. That's going to be fun.

Battistella

 

[Paul Harb]

Wow, I didnt realize this would start such a thread. Im not freaking out about anything, I had seen an earlier thread that was showing issues with colored noise in shadows and I thought I read there was a firmware updating coming to fix it. Thats the only reason I was asking, Im not sure what the debate is. I rented out one of my Dragons recently and didnt hear of any issues, I myself havent had time to shoot with it.

 

[Ryan Purcell]

I love my dragon. Never going back and you can't make me.

 

[Will Keir]

Waiting on this one too.

hopefully soon

 

[Will Keir]

I love the faith you have my friend. I believe if it's possible to improve we'll see it done.

The new noise is only temporary...they are fixing it...

 

[Brian Boyer]

Man, you're a tiresome bunch sometimes. The only thing I can think of is some people were forced to beat dead horses as children and simply don't know any other way. EVERYONE knows RED is working on the noise.

What is rehashing this issue, yet again, going to accomplish? What can possibly be gleaned this time around?

To paraphrase Gunleik, I don't understand why you guys are so willing to burn down the brand in order to make a point. Yes, it was a good point but it has already been made - ad nauseam.

I think what has been suggested is show some self-control and a modicum of discretion and consider keeping it to yourself at this late stage.

Instead, some of you mofos are more than happy to publicly commiserate about how unusable and unbookable your cameras are.

It seems to me that continuing to make a big stink about something you know is being worked on is a) pointless and b) going to make your camera that much harder to book even after the noise gets fixed.

It's the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. We're well past the point of diminishing returns on this subject.

Just leave it alone until the fix gets here. It's not censorship when it's been said 100 times before you.

 

[Ricky Guing Senen]

I've got my Dragon and I'm never looking back...

/RANT ON... Everyone needs to realize that, back in the film days, you would need to test a new film stock under a variety of conditions and learn its behaviour... Why does this not apply to digital imagers? EVERY camera sensor is like a film stock -- even within a single manufacturer -- you need to LEARN each sensor you're shooting with. It's really that simple. All of the whining that the Dragon doesn't behave like an MX... well it's NOT an MX... It's a different beast and has its own characteristics.

I NEVER go into a production with a new camera blindly. Hell, I never go into a new FIRMWARE blindly. These boards are part of my daily routine of keeping abreadst of where each camera is evolving into. I don't always have time to share my personal methodologies and sometimes when I do, they seem to fall on deaf ears, so I'm fine with keeping them to myself as well.

I see a lot of keyboard warriors out there bitching about image specifications and not a lot of bonafide production useage being created by these malcontents. Honesty people, get out there and create. Actually DO something, even if its on spec with no money. I respect that. Just whining and not putting your money where your mouth is is downright tedious and boring. And if there's one thing we certainly don't need MORE of in this world is whiny tedious boring bitching... If you want that, get married!

OR take my advice and impress us all by actually SHOOTING something for the love of all that is holy!

/RANT OFF....

I agree. I agree.

 

[Jan Reiff]

tired of this ...

so many great images out there of Dragon ...

the VERY BEST of the new firmware will be, that there will be not another and another thread about the same thing

 

[David Battistella]

Wow, I didnt realize this would start such a thread. Im not freaking out about anything, I had seen an earlier thread that was showing issues with colored noise in shadows and I thought I read there was a firmware updating coming to fix it. Thats the only reason I was asking, Im not sure what the debate is. I rented out one of my Dragons recently and didnt hear of any issues, I myself havent had time to shoot with it.

For the record Paul I wasn't suggesting you were freaking out, but there has been some freak out angst from some people. Like any imaging medium you can break it. It's important to know where it breaks. Some people point to this as a weakness in the imager. Well, everything has a weakness including our beloved film.

Anyone with it a healthy respect and proficiency for image making will create magic on dragon as they would on film or any other system you would test professionally before putting it into practice.

Battistella

 

[Logan Smith 2]

Man, you're a tiresome bunch sometimes. The only thing I can think of is some people were forced to beat dead horses as children and simply don't know any other way. EVERYONE knows RED is working on the noise.

What is rehashing this issue, yet again, going to accomplish? What can possibly be gleaned this time around?

Guy just wanted an update. Seems fair to me.

People acting like this isn't a big deal must be pretty insulated from the industry because from what I'm hearing this is doing some noticeable damage to Red's reputation. It's a pretty critical time right now for Red with the Dragon release and every day this problem persists means more lost jobs and more producers and DPs hear about the problem and become even more convinced that Red makes cameras you can't rely on.

I personally have lost at least one job that I know of because of this issue.

 

[David Litchfield]

Given the long delays for this much hyped sensor I think its perfectly reasonable for people to want what was advertised and what they have paid for.

The old olpf didn’t have the highlight stops people were expecting.
The new olpf is noisy.
The new new calibration will not be a magic cure and might have its own issues.

There may well be a difference between perception and reality, but trying to move everyone along as though there’s nothing to see here is not going to help improve the situation.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

As far as I understood the noise level is already less than MX, just don´t underexpose it. Take a look at Björns side by side test. There are a lot of experienced users voicing this, why don´t you hear them?
Rushing a new update which might not be perfect won´t serve Red or anybody, so give them the time they need to make decisions and the final improvement. YMMV.

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

:smilewinkgrin:

Given the long delays for this much hyped sensor I think its perfectly reasonable for people to want what was advertised and what they have paid for.

The old olpf didn’t have the highlight stops people were expecting.
The new olpf is noisy.
The new new calibration will not be a magic cure and might have its own issues.

There may well be a difference between perception and reality, but trying to move everyone along as though there’s nothing to see here is not going to help improve the situation.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I tend to agree with Brian Boyer and Gunleik on this....the update is forthcoming, so the OP has been answered...rehashing the issues over and over in a negative way cannot help the brand nor the actual current owners. I am sure between this and optimizing the red rocket x and getting the hd sdi ports working they are quite busy.... and as a current owner of both these products i appreciate their efforts...in a short time frame am sure all of the above will be working...but for now there is literally nothing i can personally do about the situation. i think the last thing any of us need is this to become a new red myth. its bad enough being told your camera is unreliable and overheats (when its perfectly fine)...but once the fix is out and the blacks are nice like the old OLPF i really don't want to have to defend noise levels too in addition to my non existent heat/reliability problem is all guys lol...

Man, you're a tiresome bunch sometimes. The only thing I can think of is some people were forced to beat dead horses as children and simply don't know any other way. EVERYONE knows RED is working on the noise.

What is rehashing this issue, yet again, going to accomplish? What can possibly be gleaned this time around?

To paraphrase Gunleik, I don't understand why you guys are so willing to burn down the brand in order to make a point. Yes, it was a good point but it has already been made - ad nauseam.

I think what has been suggested is show some self-control and a modicum of discretion and consider keeping it to yourself at this late stage.

Instead, some of you mofos are more than happy to publicly commiserate about how unusable and unbookable your cameras are.

It seems to me that continuing to make a big stink about something you know is being worked on is a) pointless and b) going to make your camera that much harder to book even after the noise gets fixed.

It's the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. We're well past the point of diminishing returns on this subject.

Just leave it alone until the fix gets here. It's not censorship when it's been said 100 times before you.

 

[Paul J Steinberg]

I don't think the original post is trying to stir the muck. It was suggested that this fix was going to be quick and should have been out two weeks ago but since then no news.

It seems that these threads ignite with enthusiasts insisting there is no problem, IF there is a problem it is minor and a result of the operator not knowing how to properly use the camera. That's not professional peer review. I'm sharing all my footage with Red tech support, the issue is confirmed, it is serious and they're working on it diligently.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

The repair will take however long it takes.

There are two sides, one wanting to ask about and discuss the topic and the other side who want to clamp down on this topic.


But the considerable heavy handedness and too often nasty writings coming from the clamp down and sit silently side is quite astonishing.


The ones calling for more info from the Red team are, on the whole, behaving more gentlemanly than those wanting silence. Go figure as they say.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Guy just wanted an update. Seems fair to me.

People acting like this isn't a big deal must be pretty insulated from the industry because from what I'm hearing this is doing some noticeable damage to Red's reputation. It's a pretty critical time right now for Red with the Dragon release and every day this problem persists means more lost jobs and more producers and DPs hear about the problem and become even more convinced that Red makes cameras you can't rely on.

I personally have lost at least one job that I know of because of this issue.

My point is you're apt to lose more jobs if people let impatience get the better of them and complain even though they know the problem is being worked on.

Whatever damage is being done to RED's reputation by the actual noise is being exacerbated by all the forum noise. How is people continuing to whine about a known issue going to book your camera more gigs? I don't get it.

I also found the red shadow noise disconcerting but no one knew that until right now because there was no reason to mention it after Jarred said they were working on a fix for it.

Once the issue was brought to RED's attention and they addressed it, some people just couldn't bring themselves to put down their pitchforks and torches. Don't let them suck you in.

There may well be a difference between perception and reality, but trying to move everyone along as though there’s nothing to see here is not going to help improve the situation.

How is rehashing the same complaint, especially when you know a fix is imminent, going to improve the situation? At this point, there literally is "nothing to see here" until the fix comes out. Do people think Graeme is working on his novel instead of working to mitigate the noise and complaining is going to get him back on track?

As innocently as Paul may have asked the question, it's the equivalent of asking "Are we there yet?" Realistically, this thread should only have one reply in it - "not yet." Do you all really think the update is going to be released in secret and passed along one person at a time on the dark net? When it's ready, you'll know.

My problem was mainly with the comments that came after. This has become grown folks complaining for the sake of complaining. It tends to get people riled up over something they can't control and often fosters a mob mentality.

Perhaps complaining about it gives people the illusion they have some sort of control over the situation and makes them feel better but they need to let it go. It's not helping.

Defending that behavior is doing everyone a disservice. The name of the game now is decorum. Pull yourselves together and at least pretend you're cool and resourceful when things get a little rough.

In keeping with my own advice, unless anyone has anything new to say in disagreement, this will be my last post on the subject and I'll leave you to rehash in peace, if you fancy.


EDIT:

One of my favorite lines in From Dusk Till Dawn is when Seth says to Jacob, "Are you such a loser you can't tell when you've won?"

Dragon has noise. The people spoke. RED responded with news and examples of a fix. The people WON. What is there left to complain about until the fix arrives?

I think a much better direction for this thread would be for people to share exposure strategies for working around the noise to help allay FUD about using Dragon in its current state.

Okay, now I'm done.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I am wondering if there are variances in sensors or something that would allow for such divergence of opinion. We have been shooting several times now with Dragon new OLPF. Huge improvement in mixed light which for me was like a major moment for skin tone and ease of use. Much truer picture overall. We ran tests before we went out and found that there is indeed some noise at 800 but 640 looked smooth as anything I mean silly smooth to the point that some might find it inorganic. 640 was the same sweet spot for me with Epic MX but better now. So we always shoot at 640 or below as before. The reason why is that for most of the time it feels like an honest ISO. You are not forcing everything in a room up, like light sources and windows in a bid to not use a light.

Totally agree though that the noise creeps in 800 and above, but I have also seen noise on stuff like a C300 at 1250 in fill side on a face. And I mention that camera because they do a lot of 'kludging' to try and hide noise. I also suspect that a lot of this glorified camcorder tech is behind much of our expectations about wanting to shoot in the dark. We will be testing an A7S next week on that very score btw. The Dragon image is for me very dense and rich. It is a personal thing maybe. Something I just like a lot. And the fact that I got this new toy for a 9500$ upgrade is pretty sweet too.

I get that people can be irritated that the camera is not doing everything as claimed. Like base 2000. But F55 was released with a ton of its features disabled and people were angry. And they still complain about fixed sensor pattern in extreme highlights. Anyways. I hope Red gets this fix in quick as well as the negatives always have a way of gaining more traction than the positives.