Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

[Matt Ryan]

Ryan, I agree about the noise. Fingers crossed for the firmware update.

Brian, you're right. Not the best cameras to compare but they were sitting in my living room as I read this thread. The C300 tops out at 50Mb/s and both Canon cameras have all kinds of image processing going on. When pixel peeping you can see some difference but overall when looking at the image you don't see it while the magenta banding on the Dragon is very obvious.

I have faith that the firmware update will help tremendously. Can't wait to see how it works with existing footage.

 

[Mark Toia]

Arriraw doesn't have any noise reduction going on. It's much like R3D's, no sharpening, no noise reduction. It's up to you in post.

"Many processing steps that are irreversibly ‘baked-into’ the ProRes or HD-SDI image on the set are not applied to the ARRIRAW files (de-bayering, downscaling, white balance, exposure index, gamma). Those processing steps will be performed in post, where there is more time and where they can be reversed at any time by going back to the original ARRIRAW files. Thus ARRIRAW provides more flexibility in post, including the flexibility to apply different vendor’s image reconstruction algorithms."

http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/learn/alexa_faq/

I stand corrected, Maybe because its only 2.8k against 6k... ? and a much lower megapixel count as well.

Still is a very interesting image that was posted... Especially the neon breakup. Thats due to lessor pixel count I'm sure.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I stand corrected, Maybe because its only 2.8k against 6k... ? and a much lower megapixel count as well.

Still is a very interesting image that was posted... Especially the neon breakup. Thats due to lessor pixel count I'm sure.

It's probably a combination of lower resolution, larger pixels, and overall 1 stop more sensitivity. If you rate the Alexa at 800ISO and Dragon at 800ISO with exact same t stop, you'll notice Alexa is a stop brighter overall.

There's no doubt you can clean the Dragon image up and get great results, it would just be better if it was cleaned up more so you didn't have to rely on post. I think the new calibration should help a bit.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Hmmm. Down-sampling the Dragon footage to match the Arri makes the comparison much closer in my quick test. I'm confident the next firmware build is going to be even better.

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

What I understood is that in the new firmware the red noise will disappear but there will still be noise.

 

[Mark Toia]

What I understood is that in the new firmware the red noise will disappear but there will still be noise.

correct.

 

[Alain M]

Arriraw does not use on board noise reduction. I don't know where anyone gets that... Arriraw is very similar to an R3D in that there is no noise reduction or sharpening in camera.

You are right Matt! What I meant is that if we ge the clean footage as arri with firmware or NR, either option would be awesome. I think RED is gonna make it happen soon, they know a lot of us love the clean image and control noise to leverage on low light situations... RED definitely needs a better Low Light performance in my opinion...Meanwhile we wait for that moment to happen...

I guess...hehehehe

 

[Martin Stevens]

And since this CMOS "banding" issue is mainly red, hopefully the new calibration will greatly reduce
the red part in the banding making it much less noticeable.

 

[Alain M]

I actually would love to have a Mark III Low light performance on RED...that will be amazing Matt!

 

[Elsie N]

Granted, these are jpegs and not the best when it comes to grossly manipulating the image, but I'm seeing horizontal bands in both the C300 and 1DmkIV pics by either moving the white point slider to the left in the Photoshop Levels adjustment or moving the "Exposure" slider to the right in the Exposure adjustment.

The bands are faint and magenta across the speaker in the 1DmkIV pic. If you invert the image and adjust the black point slider in the Levels adjustment, you can see bands as being more green where the rest of the image has more magenta.

The C300 pic has a green narrow green band across the bottom half of the woofer. However, the Dragon's bands are more prominent for sure. Again, I don't know how much jpeg compression is playing a role.

Besides, don't the C300 and 1DmkIV have built-in image processing? Maybe it helps mitigate the effect in those cameras somehow.

Nice to see someone with the gumption to torture test the images held up as "better" to see if they hold up under the scrutiny of pixel peeping.

Thanks for keeping it real.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Nice to see someone with the gumption to torture test the images held up as "better" to see if they hold up under the scrutiny of pixel peeping.

Thanks for keeping it real.

lol who say's those camera's are better? Better in low light yes, in no other way are they better...

 

[Elsie N]

lol who say's those camera's are better? Better in low light yes, in no other way are they better...

Heh, heh... I agree that the other cameras aren't better. But what I'm really hoping for is when the new firmware is let loose after getting it in Redcine so we can see the improvements, that people will go on Arri, Sony, Canon, forums etc. and compare their camera's output to Dragon.

It just galls me that so many here hold every other camera up as the gold standard and suggest that RED is a lesser camera. In fact, RED is the leader in so many ways that the other cameras should be compared to the true gold standard... Dragon. NOT the other way around.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Heh, heh... I agree that the other cameras aren't better. But what I'm really hoping for is when the new firmware is let loose after getting it in Redcine so we can see the improvements, that people will go an Arri, Sony, Canon, etc. and compare their camera's output to Dragon.

It just rubs on me that so many here hold every other camera up as a the gold standard and suggest that RED is a lesser camera. In fact, RED is the leader in so many ways that the other cameras should be compared to the true gold standard... Dragon.

I agree and would love for more comparisons. I'll do a couple myself. It's not that people hold others up as the gold standard as much as they hold the Alexa up as the gold standard since it owns about 85% of the tv/film market. That is the main reason we want to see Dragon beat Alexa in every area so we can say without a doubt, Dragon is superior. What we don't want is blind faith and false information being spread if Dragon can't do certain things better. If a big name DP picks up a Dragon and it doesn't do what the hype says, then it gives RED a bad rep and makes the rest of the industry balk at us (even if they've never touched one). If Dragon was a bit better in low end noise, there would be nothing lacking to the Alexa. So far that is the only aspect that Dragon is behind in. All the other boxes are ticked in Dragons favor. We just want to keep pushing to make Dragon #1 which is why some of us can seem hyper critical at times (it's only to push for more because if anyone is capable, it's RED). Believe me when I say I want Dragon to be an unrivaled champion, but I'd be lying if I said there was no room for improvement. If the low end can get cleaned up, look out, we're the champs for sure. Until Arri releases it's next sensor, then comes Dragon 2 and the cycle continues.

 

[Elsie N]

I agree and would love for more comparisons. I'll do a couple myself. It's not that people hold others up as the gold standard as much as they hold the Alexa up as the gold standard since it owns about 85% of the tv/film market. That is the main reason we want to see Dragon beat Alexa in every area so we can say without a doubt, Dragon is superior. What we don't want is blind faith and false information being spread if Dragon can't do certain things better. If a big name DP picks up a Dragon and it doesn't do what the hype says, then it gives RED a bad rep and makes the rest of the industry balk at us (even if they've never touched one). If Dragon was a bit better in low end noise, there would be nothing lacking to the Alexa. So far that is the only aspect that Dragon is behind in. All the other boxes are ticked in Dragons favor. We just want to keep pushing to make Dragon #1 which is why some of us can seem hyper critical at times (it's only to push for more because if anyone is capable, it's RED). Believe me when I say I want Dragon to be an unrivaled champion, but I'd be lying if I said there was no room for improvement. If the low end can get cleaned up, look out, we're the champs for sure. Until Arri releases it's next sensor, then comes Dragon 2 and the cycle continues.

I do believe you Ryan, and I agree that there was room for improvement. But there's no need to keep pushing. Jarred, Graeme and everyone involved have stated they have the problem nailed down to the point where they are satisfied they have given all they can from the top to make the bottom better.

It's just a waiting game now and continuing to "push" is causing some to fear using their cameras because they are afraid they don't know how to shoot without using light. Even you... saying you are gonna have to shoot a C-100 or whatever number, because you don't know how to make a Dragon work in low light.

That, IMO is not pushing. That is a vote of no confidence. An attempt to embarrass. But if that's how you want to be perceived, carry on.

EDIT: I guess if we were to boil this maple sap down to the syrup, part of my problem with your continuing to push is that you aren't even a RED customer. That is, you are a customer of whatever rental house or individual you rent a camera from. Just let RED take care of their customers and if you don't like what they come up with, rent an Arri, Sony, or Canon etc.

 

[David Battistella]

What I understood is that in the new firmware the red noise will disappear but there will still be noise.

Thats right, and just to expand on Marks answer. The sensor still produces it's pattern, grain, texture, noise, etc. the new fw will probably get rid of the color of that noise.

If you look at the ISO test Jarred posted, the noise pattern does not change, but the color in that noise, in the blacks and shadow areas is pretty well eliminated.

Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

Compression and noise.

Because dragon resolves so well, I actually think that shooting at Low compression creates a bit more noise because dragon is capable of resolving that noise. When I've shot stuff at 11:1 it seems to be less noisy or the noise or texture of the image dissipates a little bit, giving a smoother overall image that holds up well to sharpening. The lower compression 6:1, resolves so much that the noise seems to be a bits "sharper" as well. I'm settling on around 9:1 compression that is giving me nice results and a good "working" data rate.

im on shoots today tomorrow and Friday but if anyone wants to post a few compression tests it might be interesting. It's just something I've noticed by eye and not completely tested.

battistella

 

[Matt Ryan]

I do believe you Ryan, and I agree that there was room for improvement. But there's no need to keep pushing. Jarred, Graeme and everyone involved have stated they have the problem nailed down to the point where they are satisfied they have given all they can from the top to make the bottom better.

It's just a waiting game now and continuing to "push" is causing some to fear using their cameras because they are afraid they don't know how to shoot without using light. Even you... saying you are gonna have to shoot a C-100 or whatever number, because you don't know how to make a Dragon work in low light.

That, IMO is not pushing. That is a vote of no confidence. An attempt to embarrass. But if that's how you want to be perceived, carry on.

You're the only one who perceives it that way...

What I actually said was if I had to shoot in a no light situation I'd use a c300 right now. If I could light then Dragon is great.

As a paid shooter it would be your job to test out the camera for a shoot and decide if it will work for that scenario and give you the results you want. If not then find another camera. If this thread alone is causing panic without people actually testing it on their own scenario, that just points to their lack of professionalism, not mine...

 

[Matt Ryan]

Compression and noise.

Because dragon resolves so well, I actually think that shooting at Low compression creates a bit more noise because dragon is capable of resolving that noise. When I've shot stuff at 11:1 it seems to be less noisy or the noise or texture of the image dissipates a little bit, giving a smoother overall image that holds up well to sharpening. The lower compression 6:1, resolves so much that the noise seems to be a bits "sharper" as well. I'm settling on around 9:1 compression that is giving me nice results and a good "working" data rate.

im on shoots today tomorrow and Friday but if anyone wants to post a few compression tests it might be interesting. It's just something I've noticed by eye and not completely tested.

battistella

I was wondering this as well. Since Redcode was rewritten for Dragon I assumed the lower compression ratios were actually showing more noise than the lower compression ratios since detail is lost. If I can get my hands on a Dragon I can shoot some compression tests in a couple different scenarios to see how noise is visualized as well as how much detail is lost the higher compression you go.

 

[Matt Ryan]

EDIT: I guess if we were to boil this maple sap down to the syrup, part of my problem with your continuing to push is that you aren't even a RED customer. That is, you are a customer of whatever rental house or individual you rent a camera from. Just let RED take care of their customers and if you don't like what they come up with, rent an Arri, Sony, or Canon etc.

Wow, you're officially on my blocked list now. I'll be glad to not see your comments anymore since you can't have an intelligent, non demeaning, non fanboy bias. I forgot this is apparently only for owners and not Redusers... Maybe they should rename this site Redowners for the sake of Elsie and then he can continue to troll hmself since no one will remain on the site. Good riddance and good luck in life Elsie.

For the record I am currently saving up to buy a Dragon. I haven't had the luxury to afford a RED camera in the past. I'm not privileged to be able to own one for hobby work alone.

 

[Elsie N]

Wow, you're officially on my blocked list now. I'll be glad to not see your comments anymore since you can't have an intelligent, non demeaning, non fanboy bias. I forgot this is apparently only for owners and not Redusers... Maybe they should rename this site Redowners for the sake of Elsie and then he can continue to troll hmself since no one will remain on the site. Good riddance and good luck in life Elsie.

Or.... you can buy a camera and punch your ticket as a critic. '-)