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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

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Jarred Land said:
Play nice kids...
Click to expand...


Guys...

As mentioned before.
Documenting a tech issue is good. Here or in private with RED.
Finding solutions.

This place is for users and potential users. Thus it's not called redowner, and it is not a secret forum where we log in with our verified serialnumbers to be able to post.

It is important to use the discussions to potentially productive discussions, though. Even when people fuck up.
I know I do a lot.
And then I can learn how not to.

Keep it polite and on-topic.
At the moment the powers to moderate this thread into being about the OP's subject and REDs responses is kinda itching.


Cheers

G
 
still - i don´t get in it ... ;-)

i saw really noisy images here , true.

but with my Dragon i really have to underexpose to "achieve" this ... and i would never expose like that on a serious client set ...

i have new OLPF, so - are the cameras different or what´s behind all this ? yesterday i shot at dusk and the images look fine -

looking forward to new firmware, will test in same hour then ...
 
I just don't understand. How can an olpf make this much of a difference. I have shot 3 projects in the last two weeks with "old" olpf cameras, and they are almost magic. Endless dynamic range, and ZERO noise up to nearly 3200 iso. My Dragon, is grainy at 400. I have the new olpf. How did it change so significantly. It's the same chip....
 
Jan Reiff said:
still - i don´t get in it ... ;-)

i saw really noisy images here , true.

but with my Dragon i really have to underexpose to "achieve" this ... and i would never expose like that on a serious client set ...

i have new OLPF, so - are the cameras different or what´s behind all this ? yesterday i shot at dusk and the images look fine -

looking forward to new firmware, will test in same hour then ...
Click to expand...

If you underexpose seriously, you'll get noise.
If you don't, you won't.

I think many have no real feeling what a stop is. It is translated into "undefinable a-lot"'ness
And when noise comes, it is the fault f the camera.

Rule 1.
Learn your tools.

2nd thing, with new OLPF, the DR was moved a stop or so up, colors improved and life generally for many made a happier place to explore.
But the tradeoff is obvious, open up a stop or add more lights.
It's fine though.

3rd
RED has aknowledged and is looking to fix a lot of lowlight noise and the making the horizontal smear better.
You don't really have to be a fanboy to appreciate that.
I know I do.
Less noise means also the possibility to get away with slightly lower exposures, even with new OLPF.
How much exactly?
We'll need to find our own tolerances.

4th.
What seems to be the eternal question (kinda) is 3200 ISO useable?

Sure.
If the image looks good to you at 3200 ISO, it is.
But if you need to push it 2 more stops in post, it is actually a 12800 ISO image and not a 3200 ISO.
That will probably not look good.
Watch the exposurebars. If the lower one is filled, you are underexposed, no matter what ISO you have picked.

Can dragon have gorgeous rich and noisefree blacks?
Butofcourse. Just don't turn off all lights and expose for 12800 ISO.

happy posting!

G
 
Timur Civan said:
I just don't understand. How can an olpf make this much of a difference. I have shot 3 projects in the last two weeks with "old" olpf cameras, and they are almost magic. Endless dynamic range, and ZERO noise up to nearly 3200 iso. My Dragon, is grainy at 400. I have the new olpf. How did it change so significantly. It's the same chip....
Click to expand...

And a new calibration which will be replaced with new-new calibration :)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
If you underexpose seriously, you'll get noise.
If you don't, you won't.

I think many have no real feeling what a stop is. It is translated into "undefinable a-lot"'ness
And when noise comes, it is the fault f the camera.

Rule 1.
Learn your tools.

2nd thing, with new OLPF, the DR was moved a stop or so up, colors improved and life generally for many made a happier place to explore.
But the tradeoff is obvious, open up a stop or add more lights.
It's fine though.

3rd
RED has aknowledged and is looking to fix a lot of lowlight noise and the making the horizontal smear better.
You don't really have to be a fanboy to appreciate that.
I know I do.
Less noise means also the possibility to get away with slightly lower exposures, even with new OLPF.
How much exactly?
We'll need to find our own tolerances.

4th.
What seems to be the eternal question (kinda) is 3200 ISO useable?

Sure.
If the image looks good to you at 3200 ISO, it is.
But if you need to push it 2 more stops in post, it is actually a 12800 ISO image and not a 3200 ISO.
That will probably not look good.
Watch the exposurebars. If the lower one is filled, you are underexposed, no matter what ISO you have picked.

Can dragon have gorgeous rich and noisefree blacks?
Butofcourse. Just don't turn off all lights and expose for 12800 ISO.

happy posting!

G
Click to expand...

Gunleik,

Man I am the first guy to advocate proper exposure . 80% of my reel is epic mx shot 800-1600. I know how to get the image clean with fill.

But this is different. @ 800 the noise extends into the 40's, only at 250 is it sub 20ire.
 
Timur Civan said:
Gunleik,

Man I am the first guy to advocate proper exposure . 80% of my reel is epic mx shot 800-1600. I know how to get the image clean with fill.

But this is different. @ 800 the noise extends into the 40's, only at 250 is it sub 20ire.
Click to expand...

I do not doubt that, and am well aware of your level of proficiency... :)

I wrote the post as a general response at the same time as you wrote, not as an answer to you.

And I have had too little time with new OLPF to be more than general.
Unfortunately.

I have seen some of this issues from other sets, though.


My cam has been gone since May... :)
 
Eric Haase said:
I would trade a half a stop to a stop on the high end for noise free images at 800 on par with noise levels on MX. But maybe that's just me...Same noise or better as MX at 800 gets my vote.
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I guess it all depends on one's tolerance for noise in general. One person's noise is another person's character. Of course, less noise on the bottom while keeping the extra stop on the top would be ideal.

I can appreciate your personal need for less noise in the shadows. However, I truly believe the extra stop and smoothness on the top is going to be much more crucial to Dragon's overall success than slightly cleaner shadows.

I've never heard anyone marvel at how clean Alexa is in the shadows. To a person, everyone goes gaga over the highlight retention. If you really want Dragon to compete, 7 stops over middle gray is where the action is, IMO. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

In over 100 years of film, I don't think anyone has ever had a movie ruined for them because they couldn't see shadow detail under a table in the lower left corner of the frame. As a shooter, you may want to see that kind of detail on your own productions. As a viewer, you tend not to give a shit. As pesky as it is, noise can be dealt with, especially 1 stop's worth.

It may not be exactly what you need but I believe that stop on the top is going to make your Dragon more in demand. That, and the much improved color.
 
Brian Boyer said:
I guess it all depends on one's tolerance for noise in general. One person's noise is another person's character. Of course, less noise on the bottom while keeping the extra stop on the top would be ideal.

I can appreciate your personal need for less noise in the shadows. However, I truly believe the extra stop and smoothness on the top is going to be much more crucial to Dragon's overall success than slightly cleaner shadows.

I've never heard anyone marvel at how clean Alexa is in the shadows. To a person, everyone goes gaga over the highlight retention. If you really want Dragon to compete, 7 stops over middle gray is where the action is, IMO. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

In over 100 years of film, I don't think anyone has ever had a movie ruined for them because they couldn't see shadow detail under a table in the lower left corner of the frame. As a shooter, you may want to see that kind of detail on your own productions. As a viewer, you tend not to give a shit. As pesky as it is, noise can be dealt with, especially 1 stop's worth.

It may not be exactly what you need but I believe that stop on the top is going to make your Dragon more in demand. That, and the much improved color.
Click to expand...

Nice post. I agree, 7 stops over middle gray is a must.
 
Timur Civan said:
It's not shadow detail in a corner ... It's the shadow side of an actors face. Things that sit 30-45ire.
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I get that. I'm talking about in general, if whatever tweaks Graeme is currently doing alleviates those issues, people will respond more favorably and readily to the extra stop on the top, not an extra stop on the bottom. It's generally more noticeable and gives the image more polish than being able to see a little bit more into the darkness.

Excessive noise is bad. But, if virtually noise-free images were what was most important to filmmakers, the C500/300 or whatever other cameras that employ on-board noise reduction might rule the feature film/TV roost…which they don't.

I'm curious. How often is post noise reduction used on Alexa film/TV productions? Yes, it may have less noise than Dragon but is it enough to still have to go through a bit of NR in many cases? I'm wondering if it goes through NR more than we think.
 
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Timur Civan said:
It's not shadow detail in a corner ... It's the shadow side of an actors face. Things that sit 30-45ire.
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Based on that 12800ISO chart that Jarred posted in another thread, i think that noise thing might be history at lower ISO's. As you drop it down from 12800 ISO I imagine that we will see far less colour in the noise and far less noise in general.

Excited to see what the new FW brings on the new OLPF

Battistella
 
Just wondering does anyone use Dark Energy by Cinnafilm? I'm not suggesting its a "fix" just curious how it resolves with red footage. I have it, it does wonders for my fs700, especially with HFR. What are industry pros using these days? Thanks
 
Timur Civan said:
It's not shadow detail in a corner ... It's the shadow side of an actors face. Things that sit 30-45ire.
Click to expand...
Timur, here's a link to something that can help you with that. The one I have is a cheapie and it allows you to turn on just one side separately if you choose, and then dim as much as you want.
 
Álex Montoya said:
The magenta thing scares me a bit, to be honest. We already got a Dragon, but in Madrid, I can't test it right now.

How prevalent is this effect? Anyone has tested it against an Epic-X?
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If you look through this thread you will find direct EPIC MX comparisons.

Battistella
 
Álex Montoya said:
The magenta thing scares me a bit, to be honest. We already got a Dragon, but in Madrid, I can't test it right now.

How prevalent is this effect? Anyone has tested it against an Epic-X?
Click to expand...

It's been tested against several cameras, and as jarred posts... RED is on the ball with new firmware and SDK

The SDK will presumable take care of it in existing shots.
 
Timur Civan said:
I just don't understand. How can an olpf make this much of a difference. I have shot 3 projects in the last two weeks with "old" olpf cameras, and they are almost magic. Endless dynamic range, and ZERO noise up to nearly 3200 iso. My Dragon, is grainy at 400. I have the new olpf. How did it change so significantly. It's the same chip....
Click to expand...

I'm glad you understand now. I feel the same way about knowing how to shoot and didn't have noise issues with the old olpf. The calibration that accompanied the new olpf shifted the dynamic range a stop towards the highlights at the expense of losing a stop on the low end. So like you say now we have a noisier low end, and not just in underexposed areas.

Despite what another user here claims I said, I've never said I can't get good images out of it. What I did say was that if I had to shoot in a no light/available light situation I'd shoot with something else until a fix comes... It's not just grossly underexposed areas that are noisy now. I don't get how the noise goal post isn't activated at all yet I'm still seeing noise.
 
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