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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

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just got my mail for dragon upgrade yesterday.. for me personally i have been walking a thin line (spending all of my money on them) with buying red since R1 and they've always had my back.

so happily sending them my full tax refunds in a couple of days and looking forward shooting dragon.

would be a fun world if OLPF's will be the new film stocks in a couple of years just because red decided to put in a new OLPF because they where not happy with their first iteration.

guess I will be dreading my own first DIY OLPF swap and will be sweating and fretting throughout the process the first time RED will give their blessing on us doing it regularly on set with the tools Jarred spoke of being an option to develop. after three times it will be a breeze.

In two years cams would just be marked like matteboxes are now adays with what kind of glass is behind the lens instead of in front of the lens.

exciting times.
 
Phil Holland said:
It's fairly easy to make any digital cinema camera fall apart and look undesirable. Getting a grasp on the total camera system is key to creating the best images.

Most of my efforts here on Reduser are to assist others with creating the best quality images with Red cameras because that's essentially what I'm trying to do as well.
Click to expand...

I probably should just pointed to your original "New OLPF Test" from 5 months ago right off the bat... Phil, you make this place such a better place.... you are incredibly generous in your time and your expertise and I can't thank you enough.
 
Jarred Land said:
I probably should just pointed to your original "New OLPF Test" from 5 months ago right off the bat... Phil, you make this place such a better place.... you are incredibly generous in your time and your expertise and I can't thank you enough.
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Thank you Jarred. I certainly appreciate the early look on the gear too.

Dragon is special to me for a multitude of reasons. I get what you guys are doing.
 
Jarred - you guys rock!

I don't know if it would be an easy implementation and I know it goes against the RAW philosophy, but it would be AMAZING to have in camera noise reduction as an option. Basically having it off as default , but can be enabled if needed.

for example, if I'm shooting a documentary or reality tv piece, etc. with Red Dragon and simply need to crank up ISO and don't have the luxury of extra lights, post time to denoise, and because I simply have to hand over the footage this would be a fantastic option to have!

Especially when we are recording our footage via sdi out to ProRes or down the road recording 4K ProRes.

Just something to think about Mr. Santa. I've been a good Reduser hehe ;)
 
Adam Johnson said:
(snip) I don't know if it would be an easy implementation and I know it goes against the RAW philosophy, but it would be AMAZING to have in camera noise reduction as an option. Basically having it off as default , but can be enabled if needed.

for example, if I'm shooting a documentary or reality tv piece, etc. with Red Dragon and simply need to crank up ISO and don't have the luxury of extra lights, post time to denoise, and because I simply have to hand over the footage this would be a fantastic option to have! (snip)
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Perhaps in the short term the focus needs to stay on just neutralizing red/orange chroma noise in the bottom end without any NR. I respect Graeme's desire to avoid in camera NR and can see the potential for creating more issues than it solves.

That said, I also hear where Adam is coming from. Some relatively "blunt force" NR for live output (to switcher or recorder) from the camera's SDI/HDMI outs would be terrific for some applications. If RED is philosophically set against any trip down this road I wouldn't blame them, the Madman started this trip to create a Digital Cinema camera - not an RGB video camera. As an owner/op with a lot of broadcast experience (and contacts) I'd pitch for in camera noise reduction because I could book a ton more work on live multi-cam shows. I'm not complaining, RED has delivered what they promised extremely well considering all the bleeding edge tech in play. Just pointing out that as a businessman/family man the ability to get my Epic Dragon on more gigs would help pay the bills.

Cheers - #19
 
Not against noise reduction on an RGB output... that kind of thing needs to happen in the ASIC though so it will need to go on the long term list.
 
Call me an optimist but I have no doubt that RED will be able to resolve the noise issue with a firmware/ color science update. Just got our first of three Dragons today in the mail and will be doing my own low light testing along with an Epic x and a scarlet.... And comparing them.
 
That's great to hear Jarred.

I was trying to convince someone the other day that the RED cameras are digital cinema cameras, not video cameras - by intent and design. His response was even if it was accidental, RED might very well have built the best "video" camera ever made. With the ability to add a modest amount of NR to the RGB outs - AND - the UHD Broadcast module shown at NAB - look out!

Cheers - #19
 
So..... is it wrong for me to wonder when the "Dragon 2" sensor will come out?

I keep thinking that Red might market a new sensor every 2 years, but I can't remember how many years
there were between the MX and the Dragon.

Sorry for the off-topic.
 
Ok the guys need to take a break.. still have some more tests to do but here is the test I was talking about wanting earlier, the Dynamic Range chart @ ISO 800 on the left and @12800 ISO on the right. The left side have Graeme's clip markers overlay so you can see the stops that don't count ( red squares )

Gives a great one-shot overview of whats going on.

Top chart is the Epic MX. Pretty damn good still.

Bottom one is the Dragon before Graeme's new calibration/color science.

The Middle is Graeme's new work. Graeme can add explain the nuances.

This chart is shot @ 5000k... There is also a great improvement in tungsten with all this, hope to show that on monday when the tungsten chart shows up.


http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1403423374.jpg

 
You rock Jarred! Thanks for the chart example and thank you for considering noise reduction on RGB output for the future :)
 
Thanks Jared and Graeme and all those involved. How can anyone not love the Dragon?
 
Um Yeah i want that ASAP! Awesome work Graeme thanks for giving us your Saturday to figure this out! Jarred thanks for being a great leader. If you need beta testers of this build as well i'd be more then happy to help out.
 
Thanks. The noise floor of the Dragon is lower than MX even with the extra highlight protection. You can see the MX noise floor is elevated in comparison and the noise is a bit chunkier. The noise is better looking on Dragon even without the new stuff, but you can also see how the compression improvements that we put into Dragon work too.

Graeme
 
Graeme how does it look with this new calibration with high shutter rates? that was my biggest issue before? What shutter were these samples posted at?
 
I've tested it with numerous shots and it seems pretty good across the board. I've not specifically tested for shutter. If you're seeing issues specifically at high shutter, is that not something more to do with black shading?

Graeme
 
Yes the chart is shot in two pieces - top half to show clipping, the bottom half to show noise with the top masked off.

Graeme
 
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