Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

[Elsie N]

Hey ivan,

i get get what you are saying. You've been like an investigative journalist on here and asked some challenging questions in a provocative way to get answers.

It ain't all about cheerleading on here and it shouldn't be, but not every post gets responded to and then that can lead to more sarcasm and frustration. I've come to learn that sometimes there's no answer because there is no answer yet.

We do live in a time of immediacy and we've come to expect fast answers. Peering at this from the outside I could feel how hard you were pushing and you got a response, that's good for everyone.

Now we should see the results of the tweak and open the next can of worms.

I think Jarred has been fair in his responses (not that he needs any defending).

I'm get this feeling of us wanting to arm red with the right ammo for producers and eliminate all FUD associated with RED cameras but my experience is that you have to bitchslap them with images and show how great this thing looks.

There is no doubt RED does things differently and I hope they continue that. I think you are trying to protect them, yourself and the rest of us in a kind of interesting way and with straight talk. That's cool but we all have to understand that red is getting a ton of feedback from a wide range of sources and they have to balance an owner operator base along with the demands of rental and heavy production.

I'm not sure that's a very easy dance.

Sorry for for the ramble. The long and short of it is that we've had a solid response within a week and it's the result of a lot of dialog, in the end we all win.

Battistella

Bullshit! This guy is a troll who has been trying to stick it to RED for weeks now.

Ban him!

And mods, if you need to ban someone along with him so it doesn't look like you are picking on him (as he has been picking on RED) then ban me along with him. I'll gladly be shutdown if in turn he is as well.

Sometime or another, you just have to stand up to verbal bullying.

 

[Elsie N]

Ah Elsie, you poor sad little man.

But honestly, I'll take the trade. I actually care about the rep of RED and fools like you contribute to the bad rep it does have.

Ban away.

picking on RED, hahahaha, really, thats funny sad little man.

aHA! There's your justification, RED. He (again) made his attack personal and that has been grounds for being banned for a long time now. I'll reciprocate by labeling this troll as iVAN THE TERRIBLE!

Not to mention his Joe McCarthy tactics.

 

[D Anderson]

Ban hammer needs new handle - been used a lot.

 

[Elsie N]

This is my last word with you on this Elsie.

You made it personal by calling me a Troll and for a Ban.

Be a little less insecure in your purchases.

You make this place into a school yard.

And you have made this a place into V for vendetta, it seems to me. From the moment I first noticed your posts you have been constantly digging at RED and even in one or two posts you attacked Jim and his forthrightness, essentially calling him a liar and charleton.

Had I been a Mod I would have banned you long ago. Apparently RED has adopted such an open approach as to let people remain who constantly try to put them in a bad light. I don't know your reasons for doing this but the evidence is there in your posts, so I invite anyone who hasn't noticed to go and read all your posts and see the evidence.

You havo attempted to pass off your vitriol as "Oh, I'm just trying to make RED better!" You may get away with that in the context of one post, but your body of work (posts) uncovers the charade for what it must really be... a vendetta of some sort.

And in a way that would make Joseph McCarthy proud, you try to hide your dirty deeds by trying to belittle me. But just as happened to Joe McCarthy, at some point your shtick no longer works.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I really wish that more people would see certain errors or mistakes as somewhat of a blessing.

Humans and Nasa had many issues with getting to the moon, but they made it.

Red has made it to the place where 35mm neg is no longer needed.

And behold, the "Dragon 2" sensor will probably come out soon in all its glory.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

The veil being lifted Michael is the better contrast handling, less low level IR, less veiling glare.

Graeme

Makes sense... Great work!

 

[TD Wood]

Those who strap on their cape to defend the honor and virtue of RED are just as much of the problem as those who attack them. Stick to the issue and ignore those who are clearly trying to bait you into a worthless argument.

Amen to this.

Elsie, although I am sure it is far beyond your intentions, your tendency to act as RED's watchdog usually causes more turmoil than good. Personally, I don't see any trolls or conspiracies, just people that perhaps are at times a bit vehement in their criticism. I am sure RED can deal with it, even if Jarred seems a bit pissed lately . Seriously, though, I really think this thread (as well as the one that was closed recently) have been tremendously productive and necessary.

cheers,
TD WOOD

 

[Drew Baird]

I have only had one encounter with a Dragon, which was at a private movie screening/release party. The camera was set up with a series of tungsten lights hitting a blue backdrop. The camera was set at 240fps at 2000 iso at 2KHD, and the operator had told me that it was a brand new Dragon with the new OLPF. I was extremely impressed by how clean the image was at these settings. It was a little soft, but the noise was almost impossible to see. It is quite obvious based on this (very scientific) encounter - and confirmed what most of us already know at this point (at least what you SHOULD know if you call yourself a cinematographer) - you will get a clean image if you expose your sensor properly. And you will introduce noise if you starve your sensor for light.

Here is a link to the video and all of its ridiculous shenanigans: -don't forget to watch in 1080p

I am glad to hear that there will be a fix soon for the red noise, but many of the arguments in this thread seem like we are getting worked up over nothing.

 

[Elsie N]

Amen to this.

Elsie, although I am sure it is far beyond your intentions, your tendency to act as RED's watchdog usually causes more turmoil than good. Personally, I don't see any trolls or conspiracies, just people that perhaps are at times a bit vehement in their criticism. I am sure RED can deal with it, even if Jarred seems a bit pissed lately . Seriously, though, I really think this thread (as well as the one that was closed recently) have been tremendously productive and necessary.

cheers,
TD WOOD

I respect your opinion, but I have cameras which, like it or not, are tied to the reputation of RED.

I understand that others can sit idly by while unfair, repetitive, and vehement criticisms are heaped upon a camera system I employ and amaze at whenever I open footage that equals what was once the domain of film. As I posted previously, if the calumnies aren't contested, they take on the mantle of truth.

It is better IMO, to take a stand because turning the other cheek too many times can degrade your spine.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I thought the thread in its honest discussion parts was just fine. I too found a lot of the discussion useful. It was the attack and slander posts I took issue with.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Bullshit! This guy is a troll who has been trying to stick it to RED for weeks now.

Ban him!

And mods, if you need to ban someone along with him so it doesn't look like you are picking on him (as he has been picking on RED) then ban me along with him. I'll gladly be shutdown if in turn he is as well.

Sometime or another, you just have to stand up to verbal bullying.

Elsei, Red had respect for more than just avid fanboys. In the end, people who are constructively critical help a company a lot more than mindless fanboys, especially if they sell to mostly educated people, as Red does.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I respect your opinion, but I have cameras which, like it or not, are tied to the reputation of RED.

I understand that others can sit idly by while unfair, repetitive, and vehement criticisms are heaped upon a camera system I employ and amaze at whenever I open footage that equals what was once the domain of film. As I posted previously, if the calumnies aren't contested, they take on the mantle of truth.

It is better IMO, to take a stand because turning the other cheek too many times can degrade your spine.

Mindless yelling ra ra is never a good idea, no matter how much you like a person, group or thing. No one is perfect. Nothing is perfect. The world is not black and white.

 

[Daniel Murphy]

Ansel Adams didn't shoot moving pictures. He didn't have people in frames, no movement. Static shots of landscapes. So he can tailor his exposure however he wanted to and in those scenarios, the low end is of less concern to his images.

Put a person near the bottom of that frame and they are terribly underexposed for that exposure. So he would either need to augment or open up his exposure to compensate if he wanted the subject exposed properly...

I would also point out that there are some clipped highlights in his famous shot of half dome:

Some clipped leaves and crushed blacks:

Yes, and with a RED we don't have ability to maneuver our hands under light of enlarger to 'burn in' areas and make them the way we want. To get skies this way you must literally move your hands and fingers like playing a piano to avoid hitting peak areas we want to protect while keeping a natural look avoiding a hard edge. We use to create a 'graduated' look by adding and removing poly contrast filters while burning and dodging.

I say 'used to' because unlike Zeb, my days of fine art printing are done about 100,000 prints ago.:wink5:

 

[D Fuller]

Yes, and with a RED we don't have ability to maneuver our hands under light of enlarger to 'burn in' areas and make them the way we want. To get skies this way you must literally move your hands and fingers like playing a piano to avoid hitting peak areas we want to protect while keeping a natural look avoiding a hard edge. We use to create a 'graduated' look by adding and removing poly contrast filters while burning and dodging.

But we do have power windows. Same result.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

FWIW, saying that Firmware changes indicate a mistake is an old way to look at a dynamic marketplace. The Firmware for the Red One still changes - has every version so far been a mistake? Arri upgrades the firmware. They shipped their camera with the audio turned off.

Upgrades are SOP - get used to it.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

I guess you said 're-calibration'.

In any case, the images that I'm getting with my Dragon now are beyond extremely good. I think we're pixel-f**king back and forth about cleaning up some color shift in the noise. Hardly worth all of this Stürm und Drang.

 

[John Marchant]

Ivan, does this point really matter? I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve... Red could say they blessed it with magic pixie dust or installed a warp drive, the end result is what counts. Nobody's being billed for any of this process, Red are taking it all on the chin - that's the mark of a company standing behind what they do, even through an evolving process.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Ivan Red has indeed admitted to all of their mistakes - they specifically said Graemme was working on a fix. How could there be a fix if there was no admission of a mistake to begin with?

Early digital Betacams and Sony F35s had 1.0 and 2.0 versions - but they looked the same on the outside.

 

[Anthony Marino]

I've been following this thread, I'm not worried about any issues with the launch of this camera. I've been an early adopter of several other cameras and some recording components and they're still not done yet, even after a year and half. The good news is you guys actually hear back from the magicians, you gotta trust they'll make it right, look how far they come. Try to get a reply from some other company heads in this industry and all you'll hear is crickets. I guess my point is, It's gonna happen, relax, don't drive yourself crazy, enjoy the weekend

 

[dewaldaukema]

Ivan, lets just get real here you old Irish goat.
Even if some people choose to have the old OLPF installed it would be rather simple for RED to notify that in the system spec found in the menu.
Any person calling themselves either a DOP/Cinematograher/Cameraman/Focus puller/1stAC/DIT would most certainly check this, with the project frame rate, the compression ratio etc, before starting to shoot with a particular Dragon body.
Bit like marking the mags with which film stock was loaded?
Secondly, I think it would be rather great to have these options as a DP pursuing a certain look, don't you think?
Stay of the Guinness for a while brother... Just joking

 

[Zeb B]

Walk away Ivan. You are at the point of diminishing returns. You made your point - got a direct response - the rest appears to be personal piling on. Any company needs a certain amount of internal dissension (to counter the fanboi bubble) to remain externally competitive but there comes a point where it is no longer productive. You getting banned would be a loss here since there needs to be a balance to drive us forward. Take the next exit, have a beer on me and get a good night's sleep.

I trust RED has heard us and is working on a comprehensive solution. Let's stick to the OP plz.