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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

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Ivan McCullough said:
Thanks Jarred, so just to be clear, the old OLPF was plagued with IR pollution? Really? Thats not what the early testers were posting as I recall.
Click to expand...

It allowed for regular NDs to be used without IR concern, but the older OLPF/Calibration also was prone to IR reflected off the sensor that also seemed to mimic the exit pupil of the lens, which is essentially the reflected orbs you see around sources sometimes. Which in some cases would contaminate deep shadows with IR and lifting it's value slightly revealing a bit of noise. It also was prone to the "magenta dots" at deep apertures.

The new OLPF/Calibration is "the good stuff". Solves all of the above and also helps with the overall "density purity" of the image.
 
Er. Ok so pretty much newbie to commenting on Reduser though have checked in and picked up a lot of info over the years. Just to say have been shooting with new Dragon, new OLPF and latest firmware. We tend to shoot at 640 ASA and the images are pretty close to perfect. Free of noise actually and clean even t'coded to prorez..
This week had a few shots in a hospital. Fluoro everywhere 3200K (we all know how much Epic MX loved that!). The camera handled it with ease with good honest skin tone recovery. What I am finding is that the picture is just unbelievably true. You look at your capture and you look at what you just captured "i.e" reality" and it is so close. Like a great still camera.

No denying that the higher ISOs introduce noise. And it sounds like that will be addressed very very soon.

I must say that sometimes when I read all the negativity while witnessing the camera produce such impeccable results I start to feel like I'm on Yelp.
One person says best meal they ever had. The next says it's the worst. And another is just an attack job probably by another restaurant in town.

In the end you gotta go, eat and make up your own mind.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
Er. Ok so pretty much newbie to commenting on Reduser though have checked in and picked up a lot of info over the years. Just to say have been shooting with new Dragon, new OLPF and latest firmware. We tend to shoot at 640 ASA and the images are pretty close to perfect. Free of noise actually and clean even t'coded to prorez..
This week had a few shots in a hospital. Fluoro everywhere 3200K (we all know how much Epic MX loved that!). The camera handled it with ease with good honest skin tone recovery. What I am finding is that the picture is just unbelievably true. You look at your capture and you look at what you just captured "i.e" reality" and it is so close. Like a great still camera.

No denying that the higher ISOs introduce noise. And it sounds like that will be addressed very very soon.

I must say that sometimes when I read all the negativity while witnessing the camera produce such impeccable results I start to feel like I'm on Yelp.
One person says best meal they ever had. The next says it's the worst. And another is just an attack job probably by another restaurant in town.

In the end you gotta go, eat and make up your own mind.
Click to expand...

Deleted my post out of respect for Zeb. '-)

But I would like to add a +1 to all the above.
 
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Tarquin Cardona said:
Er. Ok so pretty much newbie to commenting on Reduser though have checked in and picked up a lot of info over the years. Just to say have been shooting with new Dragon, new OLPF and latest firmware. We tend to shoot at 640 ASA and the images are pretty close to perfect. Free of noise actually and clean even t'coded to prorez..
This week had a few shots in a hospital. Fluoro everywhere 3200K (we all know how much Epic MX loved that!). The camera handled it with ease with good honest skin tone recovery. What I am finding is that the picture is just unbelievably true. You look at your capture and you look at what you just captured "i.e" reality" and it is so close. Like a great still camera.

No denying that the higher ISOs introduce noise. And it sounds like that will be addressed very very soon.

I must say that sometimes when I read all the negativity while witnessing the camera produce such impeccable results I start to feel like I'm on Yelp.
One person says best meal they ever had. The next says it's the worst. And another is just an attack job probably by another restaurant in town.

In the end you gotta go, eat and make up your own mind.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tarquin for chiming in.. glad you are happy. Great analogy...
 
Bob Gundu said:
"Skin Tones and IR and highlights"

I'm in this camp :smile:
Click to expand...

Objectively the skin tone and highlights are really superior. But not just skin tone, but colorimetry in general, especially greens. Image contrast is also improved with less veiling glare.

Graeme
 
Reading all this with interest.

My experience with the Dragon is that it is far superior to the MX in many ways. All discussed here: color fidelity, it holds highlights, it's amazingly clean when exposed properly.

Eric hasse started a couple of very valid threads talking about some things he was seeing and experiencing. I think that is a positive thing, the discussion was healthy and RED responded exactly as they should. What more could we really ask of them?

Fast forward to the one week wait for and update where REDuser starts to show its impatient, ugly side.

Until we see the improvements or changes RED has made the whole discussion is kinda moot. Users discovered something, (mostly pointing at unlit scenes) and came to conclusions about the dragon sensor.

My thought and experience is that the dragon renders beautiful images.

I've been sharing strategies for very low noise images. Many people are happy to rate at 800iso and like the images they are getting.

To me it's like a new film stock. Test it, see what it does in various situations, see how it behaves and figure out your exposure stratgies (and maybe share them here in the spirit of community service)

i really like the images I'm getting. It's a whole new imaging experience. I'm not totally convinced that RAW view 800 56k is the best move, (I'd rather see it tweaked back to 320 or even 250 because I think that will prevent under exposure) but if that doesn't happen, no problem, I am working with a new film stock and I come up with strategies for my individual style.

Whats fair?

Give RED the time to respond to what has been presented to them (a problem solved in a week? Who does that?)

And then give them constructive pushback. (Key word "constructive")

Thats how how I see it. This kind of interaction is unique in our industry. I think we need to respect that a bit. We are getting direct feedback from the president and other key people in the company. I think we sometimes forget that. I can see the frustration, but I think all everyone wants is for this thing to be as perfect as possible, and we all want to be a part of making that happen.

Battistella
 
Thanks David. Your constructive feedback and support has been great. The images you've been sharing with me are superb.

Graeme
 
Can't wait to see what Graeme comes up with. Super excited about having cake and eating it too!

I've been happily shooting MX for a couple years and love the results. Grateful that I own a camera system from a company that takes the feedback of its users seriously and reacts quickly. Rare in this age of corporatized customer service. This communication combined with the technology is truly a golden age of cinematography.

No doubt amazing images are being created with Dragon every day and I have faith that when the noise is worked out these images will be even more amazing.
 
I hardly shot anything with the original Dragon OLPF. But I can say that the new OLPF is just better all around. Not sure why people are all up in arms about this and acting as if the OLPF change was some sort of scandal or major blunder.

Looking forward to what Graeme has cooked up for us. I'm sure Gunleik and I will share our rejoicement. I think that's my favorite new word.
 
Jarred Land said:
Ivan, the upside down OLPF was our mistake.. that one we accept. When we do dumb things like that it doesn't really help our credibility so I can understand the wink.

But the new OLPF is not a botch. As much as there is a handful of people here adamant to keep pressing the issue over and over and over again, There are alot of very high caliber cinematographers and directors out there shooting the biggest films that tested both and have chosen the new OLPF for the right reasons.

And the new OLPF does not make the camera less sensitive than the old MX. Yes, it is less sensitive than the old OLPF+Dragon, but you gain a stop in the highlights, you get better color , better skintones and it eliminates the IR leak and flares. The old OLPF since it didnt do the best at stopping IR it boosted the image in the bad kind of light.. IR color contamination all over.

That's why we made the new OLPF, which has more green and less RED/IR in it ( much just like the Alexa OLPF ) . One side effect was the red channel spiked up in the noise floor so you would see that red chroma noise in the shadows and it would look much worse than it was.. Thats what Graeme is taking care of right now. Even with the new OLPF, Dragon has lower luma noise than the MX, and of course the Dragon has the extra stops in the highlights, as well as an extra stop on top of the sensor that the new OLPF gives.

We are not going to add noise reduction by default... that's something best left to people that want it and its a bit subjective in application. I know everyone else does it.. much like sharpening... but that doesn't mean it's right.

I do agree with you that having 2 OLPFs out there isnt the best idea.. but we are giving people the choice anyways. There are some people out there that turn the camera to ISO 800 and point to a scene that has 6400 ISO worth of light and think they have noise at 800.. they just don't get it so it is hard to compare to.. but to be fair everyone did that with our last camera as well. What we can do is compare things to used to be and make sure we do as much as we can better and move forward.. sometimes you need to make hard decisions and trade something for something else.

For the last 7 years we have heard Skin Tones and IR and highlights over and over and over again.. I am happy that with the Dragon one OLPF and alot of work from Graeme took care of those 3 things, at the expense of a bit of light optically which we feel is worth the tradeoff.

Anyways... Graeme should have some images to share tomorrow... he is almost done.
Click to expand...

Jarred, thank you for this post. As one who is up for the upgrade, and working in a market where there are no Dragons to test, the "noise noise" is very hard to parse. Your explanation of the technical details of the situation is very helpful in finding the truth in all this commentary. Thanks for coming in with some real info.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Objectively the skin tone and highlights are really superior. But not just skin tone, but colorimetry in general, especially greens. Image contrast is also improved with less veiling glare.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Skin is definitely so much better than with MX... This is doubly true under less favourable lighting conditions (lights with odd colour spikes or very warm and devoid of blue)

not sure I have the right words for this...but it really is as if there has been a very light veil lifted from my images... The image is a lot richer and deeper...

It is almost as if the epic MX grade has been taken off (and for the most part I liked the MX look)

Very appreciative for that... Also really looking forward to the new code from you and happy to wait as long as it takes!!

Thanks Graeme

Ps Also there is real snap in the image without it feeling too sharp...
 
The veil being lifted Michael is the better contrast handling, less low level IR, less veiling glare.

Graeme
 
Graeme have you tested the new calibration out with high shutters? I would love if you test image you present tomorrow reflect high shutter of 1/120 and higher for us 60p shooters.

You guys are awesome.
 
Ivan...

Jarred Land said:
Ivan, the upside down OLPF was our mistake.. that one we accept. When we do dumb things like that it doesn't really help our credibility so I can understand the wink.

But the new OLPF is not a botch. As much as there is a handful of people here adamant to keep pressing the issue over and over and over again, There are alot of very high caliber cinematographers and directors out there shooting the biggest films that tested both and have chosen the new OLPF for the right reasons.

And the new OLPF does not make the camera less sensitive than the old MX. Yes, it is less sensitive than the old OLPF+Dragon, but you gain a stop in the highlights, you get better color , better skintones and it eliminates the IR leak and flares. The old OLPF since it didnt do the best at stopping IR it boosted the image in the bad kind of light.. IR color contamination all over.

That's why we made the new OLPF, which has more green and less RED/IR in it ( much just like the Alexa OLPF ) . One side effect was the red channel spiked up in the noise floor so you would see that red chroma noise in the shadows and it would look much worse than it was.. Thats what Graeme is taking care of right now. Even with the new OLPF, Dragon has lower luma noise than the MX, and of course the Dragon has the extra stops in the highlights, as well as an extra stop on top of the sensor that the new OLPF gives.

We are not going to add noise reduction by default... that's something best left to people that want it and its a bit subjective in application. I know everyone else does it.. much like sharpening... but that doesn't mean it's right.

I do agree with you that having 2 OLPFs out there isnt the best idea.. but we are giving people the choice anyways. There are some people out there that turn the camera to ISO 800 and point to a scene that has 6400 ISO worth of light and think they have noise at 800.. they just don't get it so it is hard to compare to.. but to be fair everyone did that with our last camera as well. What we can do is compare things to used to be and make sure we do as much as we can better and move forward.. sometimes you need to make hard decisions and trade something for something else.

For the last 7 years we have heard Skin Tones and IR and highlights over and over and over again.. I am happy that with the Dragon one OLPF and alot of work from Graeme took care of those 3 things, at the expense of a bit of light optically which we feel is worth the tradeoff.

Anyways... Graeme should have some images to share tomorrow... he is almost done.
Click to expand...

I dunno about you... Have you looked some into the OPs image and compared it to this answer? :)

I have.

To me this is as hunest and straight as it can be said.

History was people complaining about highlight protection.
And we got that.

For many film-productions, and most I have been involved with, THAT would be exactly what the doctor ordered, to an already outstanding camera.


I know s fast as I have mine back, I will go and shoot some. Can't wait really.

Thanks RED for looking into things and finding solutions.

Getting how ISO works, seems to be a pretty deep subject :)
I have come to dumb it down a bit.

Watch your goalposts and have a pleasing image. If those two parameters are fullfilled, you are probably more often good than not, exposurewise.
With the Dragon, mixed-lighting and whiteballancing is no more an issue.
Nor is color/saturation at any exposure level.

It's just so freaking cool to work with.
And RED has stepped up and solved issues.

I dunno about you, but as I remember the Alexa rollout, it too had a few baby-sicknesses.
Biggest differences I can see is the RED crowds willingness to devaluate their own interest and investment to get it fixed.

G
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Not a major scandal, a blunder...yes but just mostly kinda dumb.

for those of you happy with Jarreds long post post in reply to mine...you are welcome.

I still think no matter how you dress it up 2 versions of the same camera that produce very different images but have the same name is a BAD idea.

Now you can commence with the go RED posts.
Click to expand...


Hey ivan,

i get get what you are saying. You've been like an investigative journalist on here and asked some challenging questions in a provocative way to get answers.

It ain't all about cheerleading on here and it shouldn't be, but not every post gets responded to and then that can lead to more sarcasm and frustration. I've come to learn that sometimes there's no answer because there is no answer yet.

We do live in a time of immediacy and we've come to expect fast answers. Peering at this from the outside I could feel how hard you were pushing and you got a response, that's good for everyone.

Now we should see the results of the tweak and open the next can of worms.

I think Jarred has been fair in his responses (not that he needs any defending).

I'm get this feeling of us wanting to arm red with the right ammo for producers and eliminate all FUD associated with RED cameras but my experience is that you have to bitchslap them with images and show how great this thing looks.

There is no doubt RED does things differently and I hope they continue that. I think you are trying to protect them, yourself and the rest of us in a kind of interesting way and with straight talk. That's cool but we all have to understand that red is getting a ton of feedback from a wide range of sources and they have to balance an owner operator base along with the demands of rental and heavy production.

I'm not sure that's a very easy dance.

Sorry for for the ramble. The long and short of it is that we've had a solid response within a week and it's the result of a lot of dialog, in the end we all win.

Battistella
 
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