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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noise on the low end but even worse scary megenta lines

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Ivan McCullough said:
I get it Elsie, i get it. You don't get it..... because you cannot allow yourself to think of a production with 20+ cameras over the course of 2/3 continents shooting for the best part of a year and sourcing cameras from all over the world. With any camera other than the Dragon the optical path will be the same. So if you ask for an Alexa, F55 etc etc etc you get one, even the 16:9 crop of the Alexa 4:3 is a perfect match for the 16:9 Alexa. With Dragon you have Dragon 1.0 and Dragon 1.1, so far, and the only way to tell which is which is to look at the OLPF.

Not a good way to endear yourself to producers or AC's
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Alright, I get your point.

But I think you are referencing maybe .001 percent of Dragon usage while maybe 90 percent of Dragons will end up being one or two camera operations that only need that amount of cameras to fill the needs of a shoot. And even the scenario you describe will probably be more affected by the camera operators, differing lens choices, lighting, etc. etc. etc.

But yes, I do understand why you would want the cameras on the same OLPF setup. I think Jarred was being a little facetious when he told Eric he could have the old OLPF back if that's what he wanted.

Of course, since Eric had lobbied for a change, he was pretty sure he wouldn't want to regress. But having made the statement, when others asked if this was possible, he was kinda stuck. At least that's my take on it.

I personally think when the new complaint is addressed, he should rescind that statement about changing the OLPF back to the older version.
 
Zeb B said:
With all respect . . . you certainly can by not engaging in worthless arguments that will get, yet another, Dragon Noise thread shut down. I for one would like to keep the RED vs X brand arguments separate so we can focus on a cause and solution to this very real issue of noise.
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Zeb, what Timur said has been stated probably a hundred times since Jarred said they were working on a firmware fix. Yet, these threads keep popping up and people keep making rash posts concerning continued ownership of their camera or refusing to use the camera because a complaint started people seeing problems in the shadows they never saw before.

I call that a form of dissonant music, and as has been shown, it can't be stopped.
 
Elsie N said:
Zeb, what Timur said has been stated probably a hundred times since Jarred said they were working on a firmware fix. Yet, these threads keep popping up and people keep making rash posts concerning continued ownership of their camera or refusing to use the camera because a complaint started people seeing problems in the shadows they never saw before.

I call that a form of dissonant music, and as has been shown, it can't be stopped.
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I deleted my post but you were too quick to respond. This thread will get deleted or shut down like the others if we don't stick to the single subject of Dragon technical issues. Those who strap on their cape to defend the honor and virtue of RED are just as much of the problem as those who attack them. Stick to the issue and ignore those who are clearly trying to bait you into a worthless argument.
 
Zeb B said:
I deleted my post but you were too quick to respond. This thread will get deleted or shut down like the others if we don't stick to the single subject of Dragon technical issues. Those who strap on their cape to defend the honor and virtue of RED are just as much of the problem as those who attack them. Stick to the issue and ignore those who are clearly trying to bait you into a worthless argument.
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I disagree. I think if you let statements stand, they become more legitimate. Only by offering counterpoint can the statement be judged for its legitimacy.

And if the thread gets shut down... so what? Another will spring up in its place. '-)
 
Elsie N said:
I disagree. I think if you let statements stand, they become more legitimate. Only by offering counterpoint can the statement be judged for its legitimacy.

And if the thread gets shut down... so what? Another will spring up in its place. '-)
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Because when a thread gets deleted so does a wealth of valuable information and insights. It seems that if you want to personally debate your brand vs brand x it might be best to do it offline so we can preserve this thread to solutions and temporary work-arounds. RED will get it fixed - in the meantime we need to share what works with each other
 
Zeb B said:
Because when a thread gets deleted so does a wealth of valuable information and insights. It seems that if you want to personally debate your brand vs brand x it might be best to do it offline so we can preserve this thread to solutions and temporary work-arounds. RED will get it fixed - in the meantime we need to share what works with each other
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I didn't know threads get deleted. I thought (and still think) they just get closed. And if you post in said thread you can revert back to the information by going to a list of your posts and finding the one shut down and then navigate through it to one's heart's content.

And besides, if you had been content to just ignore my posts, then we wouldn't be having this awesome conversation. '-)
 
So how about that RED noise... ironic hahaha

Anyways, curious to see how the tweak ends up and if the timetable given earlier still stands we should have a fix by tomorrow.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
couple of things

You work for RED? did not know that, congrats.

Also, OLPF difference issue wise.....if it is a big enough reason to swap out the OLPF that RED believed was ready for the launch of their flagship product, essentially a mini-recall, then It is a big enough issue to know which cameras have it and which ones don't, no?
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Ivan.. you dont work for RED either. It was not a recall.. it was an optional switch for customers with the old one as I said from day one so stop suggesting that it was something more than it was... I've had enough.
 
Why so much complain? if you dont want Dragon dont upgrade.there are thousands of people on line and lucky ones are just being cry babies :) its RED Digital Cinema and you should know they are trying to provide best service on planet.Just let em do it
patience
 
When there are 2 or more film camera on set AND they have different ASA film stock in them
they are usually marked with Tape with writing on it or similar so that the crew knows the difference.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Why so much complain? if you dont want Dragon dont upgrade.there are thousands of people on line and lucky ones are just being cry babies :) its RED Digital Cinema and you should know they are trying to provide best service on planet.Just let em do it
patience
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I'm sorry, but for $10 000 (not $100) we were promised a certain level of performance, in no uncertain terms. "2000 ISO is the new 800" is a direct quote from Jarred.

When that level does not seem to be on offer, when tests show the claims to be false, then we as consumers have every right to be upset, to ask questions and so on. The "best service on the planet" as you put it would deliver what is promised, at the agreed price, period - if they run into technical snags then their QC and their own technical testing team should catch them before the cameras go out the door, not users, caught by surprise on a shoot. It is not cool to make people pay to be beta testers, without telling them that is the case, and I think that is why people are getting upset.

I don't mind being a beta tester, and having developed technology myself, delays are 100% understandable - I've been waiting for a set of Cookes for over a year. Cool with me.

I also don't mind if Dragon has 50 stops or 10 stops or 2 stops of latitude - Red is free to sell whatever they like, whenever they like, at any price they choose, and I can take it or leave it, no problem - but I really need people to be straight with me, so I can make that decision knowing what I'll be getting, on my own terms.

Shoots have enough surprises as it is, and here we have a "new model" of Dragon, not really sold as inferior, nor with any warning, that appears to have less light sensitivity than the legacy MX product, and appears to be different than the ones sent out for review to DXO and so on, reviews that buyers likely read before making a purchase or shoot camera rental decision. That's not the kind of surprise the production community can easily embrace.
 
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Ivan McCullough said:
Gonna have to find me one of those archiving tools to check the deleted posts... anyhoo

Jarred, I respect you and RED, I want you to make the best image making devices that you can. I would also like a reality check.

When does the launch of a flagship product that was already delayed so as to make it as ready as it could be for launch go from having a few speed bumps, (old OLPF, upside down or btf new OLPF) to new OLPF + re-calibration which makes the camera less sensitive and introduces more noise than the previous generation of sensor (MX)...when does that start to feel like its been botched?

Don't want to piss on anyones chips here and I am sure the Dragon is capable of incredible images but I will not hold back from asking tough questions because I get asked them when people ask me what camera to choose.

I want to be clearly on the record that I feel it will not be good for Dragon and therefore RED's rep to have 2 versions of the same sensor with different OLPF's in the wild without a naming difference.
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Ivan, the upside down OLPF was our mistake.. that one we accept. When we do dumb things like that it doesn't really help our credibility so I can understand the wink.

But the new OLPF is not a botch. As much as there is a handful of people here adamant to keep pressing the issue over and over and over again, There are alot of very high caliber cinematographers and directors out there shooting the biggest films that tested both and have chosen the new OLPF for the right reasons.

And the new OLPF does not make the camera less sensitive than the old MX. Yes, it is less sensitive than the old OLPF+Dragon, but you gain a stop in the highlights, you get better color , better skintones and it eliminates the IR leak and flares. The old OLPF since it didnt do the best at stopping IR it boosted the image in the bad kind of light.. IR color contamination all over.

That's why we made the new OLPF, which has more green and less RED/IR in it ( much just like the Alexa OLPF ) . One side effect was the red channel spiked up in the noise floor so you would see that red chroma noise in the shadows and it would look much worse than it was.. Thats what Graeme is taking care of right now. Even with the new OLPF, Dragon has lower luma noise than the MX, and of course the Dragon has the extra stops in the highlights, as well as an extra stop on top of the sensor that the new OLPF gives.

We are not going to add noise reduction by default... that's something best left to people that want it and its a bit subjective in application. I know everyone else does it.. much like sharpening... but that doesn't mean it's right.

I do agree with you that having 2 OLPFs out there isnt the best idea.. but we are giving people the choice anyways. There are some people out there that turn the camera to ISO 800 and point to a scene that has 6400 ISO worth of light and think they have noise at 800.. they just don't get it so it is hard to compare to.. but to be fair everyone did that with our last camera as well. What we can do is compare things to used to be and make sure we do as much as we can better and move forward.. sometimes you need to make hard decisions and trade something for something else.

For the last 7 years we have heard Skin Tones and IR and highlights over and over and over again.. I am happy that with the Dragon one OLPF and alot of work from Graeme took care of those 3 things, at the expense of a bit of light optically which we feel is worth the tradeoff.

Anyways... Graeme should have some images to share tomorrow... he is almost done.
 
Awesome to hear that more Graeme magic is about to be unveiled.
 
I have tremendous respect for Graemme and can't wait to see his results. If Dragon has the same sensitivity as MX, but with all the other plusses, that's great then.

In-camera noise reduction is a joke - and it's true that many so called "high sensitivity" cameras are doing exactly that with much less finesse that you can in post using human judgement.
 
We right now have industry leading resolution, color, skin tones, dynamic range, highlight roll-off, and IR "containment". Don't ignore all of what has gone so very right with Dragon. It's the closest thing we've ever had to "digital film".

Observing the channel noise on Dragon you will notice it's more uniform and not as "blotchy" compared to Mysterium-X. This is a good thing actually and is "similar" to something else we all hold dear.


I often wonder if people are so hyper critical of other companies. Red's doing their best to improve things via hardware and firmware updates. Updates they have provided for free. To me this shows passion and desire to achieve better. There's always a few ways to look at things. Ignoring the good stuff is a bad thing though.

Do we not point out that other systems have nerfed their firmware? Charged for software updates that "add features" to their cameras? Have a 4K camera that's over 3 years late?

Meh.

I can do things with Dragon right now that we literally couldn't do before. I'm so grossly excited about the potential of where things are right now and what I can do with these tools.
 
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