No rocket = unsharp images?

[Björn Benckert]

Just got back from the big screen. Picture is looking unsharp in 2k? now lurking around to find the cause... Then when we fiddle around in RED CINE we realize that when looking and rendering the pix using the red rocket the images is sharp. having the rocket switch of = blurry images. Is that so?
I always render with the rocket on but this time it might have been done with it turned off.. and image look unsharp.


Will post pix in just a few seconds that is valid both for epic and Red one material....

 

[Björn Benckert]

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/alec/RocketONOFF.png

Above is rocket on off side by side... Is this something we missed or is this something new?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Yes sort of. Full Debayer in software will require a higher unsharp mask applied. Using the Rocket will give a similar sharpness as using 1/2 premium on software encode.

 

[Björn Benckert]

But will the unsharp mask ever reach the same level of detail as "rocket on"?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Actually I feel there is more control over the sharpness in software mode. Actually it's a better image in my opinion overall in software. But it's pretty darn close with the Rocket.

 

[Mark Britton]

The Rocket and software debayer aren't the same...Graeme Nattress' post touching on this topic:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...the-RED-Rocket&p=790275&viewfull=1#post790275

 

[Björn Benckert]

We are on a 16mm ultra prime, on a huge set about 35m in depth all needs to be sharp all the way to the back wall from about 2,3 meters from camera... f5,6... on my HD screen no problem, on the big screen... we got some concerns...
Im now redoing the de comp in 4k and will downress straight to 2kDCP and review tomorrow. Hoping it holds up better....

Sidenote: The 4k rocket transcode from the red one look only half as bad in my key signal as the "no rocket 2k transcode"... In other words if using greenscreen the compression pattern from rocket material is, atleast as I see it, way better than "no rocket transcodes" the compression pattern is higher in frequency and lower in amplitude and not as smeared as the software render... sharpen the software render will not get the same level.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Bjorn -its the downscaling algorithm you are using - meaning you are using a soft setting. try CatMulROM or Sinc or any of the sharp settings.

- EDIT; send me a mail if you want I can go through it with you. (I'm going offline)

spearheadpictures"at"gmail.com

 

[Bob Gundu]

Bjorn -its the downscaling algorithm you are using - meaning you are using a soft setting. try CatMulROM or Sinc or any of the sharp settings.

- EDIT; send me a mail if you want I can go through it with you. (I'm going offline)

spearheadpictures"at"gmail.com

Yes this can also make dramatic differences in sharpness.

 

[Ryan Koo]

Did some exploring here and ended up liking Lanczos3:

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/08/export-sharpest-red-footage-from-redcine-x/

 

[F. Malmer]

Hi, I am a colleague of björn, and I can tell you that it has nothing to do with downscaling. The image is in full 1:1 resolution. With rocket: sharp. Without rocket: Blurry.

I brought two screengrabs into photoshop and tried to use unsharp mask to match the two images. No matter how I tried I couldn't get the software version to be as good as the rocket version. I could get sharper, but not as good as the rocket. Red rocket beats software any day with this material. Maybe it is the other way around with other material, but I doubt it.

Since the rocket implementation is supposed to be simpler it would be nice to be able to get the same, simple and better, algorithm running in software as well with an option. Can't see how it can't be done.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

It's not real sharpness though - it's more like line-skipping fake sharpness. I don't like the Rocket output at all. Final output on high end work is rarely done via Rocket. (i.e. Company 3 last time I checked agrees with me.)

 

[Les Dittert]

I posted a thread about the difference long ago, with detailed examples.
If you apply a BLUR to the red rocket image you will have something pretty close to the software version.
Sure, you can sharpen the heck out of it, but the finest detail will not fully recover.

I'm sure more work will happen on the RCX software debayer to give it a little more 'snap' after some 2.5K images are posted from a cheap camera that is just starting to ship, as the DNG frames it makes, when rendered and debayered with Adobe Camera Raw look very sharp.

 

[Chuck Z]

It's not real sharpness though - it's more like line-skipping fake sharpness. I don't like the Rocket output at all. Final output on high end work is rarely done via Rocket. (i.e. Company 3 last time I checked agrees with me.)

I agree with you. If someone can dig out that thread where there was a test render between the Rocket and software, I thought the software output looked more natural with less edge enhancement.