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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NO RENTALS!!!

Gunleik Groven said:
Said it a couple of times before...

The fun part of "democratisation" of kit, is that after a while, we are full circle.
People rent competence and trust. Not kit.
If you rent a product, make sure that product is YOU.
YOU won't devaluate. "Any" piece of equipment you have, is as valuable as you make it.
Click to expand...

Very true words there, totally agree with you Gunleik.

I bought my Epic over a year ago and I knew when I bought it that the market was already saturated by Epic-M's. I bought the camera because I wanted to shoot on it and build up my stock footage library with some awesome footage. The only thing that can give you a leg up in the rental market is having something no one else has. Like when RED did the upgrade to the MX sensor. My RED One went out more in that year than it had in the previous 2 before. The only reason why that was such a big deal was because RED was taking forever to do the upgrades.

Also I would have imagined that you did a little research on renting a camera package before you bought one. The market has been saturated for a while. I would say get your editing job back and shoot stuff on the side when you have time.
 
I've pretty much got the same kit in LA and it wasn't renting. Have a site, reel, crazy low rates and discounts etc etc. Was going crazy wondering where all the rentals went. Then I started getting more work as a DP and bringing the camera with. I'd say build your own personal reel and you'll be a much bigger demand then just the cmaera...
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
That's an interesting thought actually; porn pretty much drove the internet. They do have a track record for better embracing and profiting from tech changes (VCRs, new distro formats, internet) than the mainstream business. Could be something that drives some early adopters of home 4K... not a business I've ever more than dabbled in the fringes of, however.

Mike
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Oh boy, I think this as a "business plan" would not go well with my wife LOL
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
That's an interesting thought actually; porn pretty much drove the internet. They do have a track record for better embracing and profiting from tech changes (VCRs, new distro formats, internet) than the mainstream business. Could be something that drives some early adopters of home 4K... not a business I've ever more than dabbled in the fringes of, however.

Mike
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HA! Okay, I'm curious: what does that mean exactly? 'Dabbling in the fringes' of the porn industry implies that you were still involved somehow (or am I reading it wrong?)

As for renting, I agree with the majority; anyone who has purchased a RED (Scarlet even more so) expecting to make even a decent income off rentals was probably expecting too much unless they already had built-in clientele (in which case, I'm not sure those clients would give two hoots about the camera used) or had gigs lined up that expressly called for 4k+ (which is mighty rare.)
 
Hey guys, just FYI, I know for a fact that many of the clips you are ALL watching on YouPorn WERE shot on a RED ONE!! I used to date a female director that worked for VIVID and was on set many times (as a operator) on her shoots. The camera of choice was of course a RED...Why not right!!

Your in LA with a RED, thats like being a grain of sand on a beach. Your prices are not bad, but our colleagues are right, in the above statements. You should create a niche or get something that will set you apart from the rest. For me its owning a super crane and weapons and a full grip package. Even then I must hustle to get it out there working...AFTER ALL WERE IN HOLLYWOOD!!!! BEST OF LUCK TO YOU
 
The porn industry has used RED cameras from time to time, specifically the ONE and EPIC, but by and large, most feature stuff is still shot on Sony or Panasonic camcorders as it has been for the past several years. Right now, Canon's CINEMA EOS line is becoming quite popular with adult content producers who are moving up from DSLRs. I'm sure SCARLET has caught on too but I honestly don't know of anyone who claims to be using that.
 
It's a nice price for a very basic shootable package. But I think you are a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place. The thing is it's a little underpowered for full shoot (lacking things like ND's, video monitor, not a broad enough set of primes) but not cheep enough that it can compete with lower priced cameras/rentals for a 1 day run and gun shoot. What it means is that a lot of productions are going to have to go and rent additional gear to build up a full package. So, you are not really a single source provider.

The other thing is that you don't have enough depth to compete against a full service house. Therefore you are going to have to focus more on very low budget to cheap productions. Simply, for a lot of people if they have to pay say 20%-40% more for the core package to have 24 hour service and backup bodies etc avail in case things go bad they will. You can work around a lot of bad conditions and issues but you must have a working camera. Even low budget productions prepare for that worst case. Better to spend a bit more then to risk blowing a whole production day.

Here are some options (really reiterating what was said above):


1. Build up a much fuller package. You'd need 5 lenses min, full video monitor, likely a better tripod (nothing personal the 504 is a nice basic tripod but it simply won't operate as effectively as a higher end one.) basic filter kit. etc...

2. Work with a rental house to back you up. Offer a fuller package for a bit more by filling in an extra body and other equipment via a rental house. If you do this on a regular basis you can probably get some decent price breaks. You might not make much on the re-rented equipment but you can present a full shoot package and over time can invest in building up your own package.

3. Focus on service. For instance don't just be a DIT. Offer to help DPs and Directors to pre-build looks and prep for shoots, and work to ensure that graded output matches this pre-vis. This is something that newer DP's and Directors often need help on.

4. Sell and move on to another way to make income (still shoot and make films, just another way to make income). I'd say that while the EPICS have little competition except other high priced cameras the SCARLETS at that price point have a lot of competition and more coming as choices for very low budget productions. I realize the Scarlet is 4K and the others are not. But, at the lower price points the people shooting are just trying to get an image and don't really have the budget to get good quality from 4K or are not aware of the advantages of 4K (if you are trying to save a few hundred you prob don't have the budget for lighting or time to do it well). So, they will simply go for an Mark III or borrow their friends camera etc.

5. A combo of the above points.
 
If you are not using the kit then sell it. It's losing money. Hold onto those editing gigs to take the pressure off and get into something cheaper / simpler to develop your craft. Take the loss now and move forward.
 
It's about the lenses.

The camera body is only half the equation.

Lens packages are what is most sought after, because people cant afford them.
They can afford a 7D, but not 5 CP.2's.
They go to rental houses for the full package.

If they rent your package they are going to have to complement it with lenses.
Whose? From where?

You guessed it. Rental houses.

Either complement your lenses with a larger range cine-modded or sell them and buy a full on 5 cine lens set or an Optimo.
Believe me the DP's will take a second look.

I can get a camera almost anywhere these days. What I need is a complete set of decent glass and to not have to compete with 12 other productions out there for it.
 
I really don't think that buying lenses is a sound advice at this time. It needs a huge investment and with nowdays camera explosion its a game that only an established rental can keep up with, and they are struggling too, believe me, at least on this side of the pond, I don't know how is the game keeping up in LA. The bottom line: SELL. You're going to get a hit, but better something then nothing in one year. India and the far east are pretty decent second hand markets, even though beware of scams.



Clayton Burkhart said:
It's about the lenses.

The camera body is only half the equation.

Lens packages are what is most sought after, because people cant afford them.
They can afford a 7D, but not 5 CP.2's.
They go to rental houses for the full package.

If they rent your package they are going to have to complement it with lenses.
Whose? From where?

You guessed it. Rental houses.

Either complement your lenses with a larger range cine-modded or sell them and buy a full on 5 cine lens set or an Optimo.
Believe me the DP's will take a second look.

I can get a camera almost anywhere these days. What I need is a complete set of decent glass and to not have to compete with 12 other productions out there for it.
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1. Producers want to rent lenses and cameras from the same place. They get screwed by rental companies if they try to rent lenses separate from the camera.

2. DP's and crews in almost every paying situation use PL lenses.

If you want to rent your camera you'll need a PL mount and you'll need to consign it to a reputable, insured rental house. Unfortunately, everything else is a random crapshoot.
 
I started out with a similar business plan to yours, Alex (only on the East Coast). I bought my first RED (Scarlet-X), outfitted it (my kit also includes a case, lenses, and filters), and set up 3 price points: my kit, plus:
-me as DIT/1AC (close to your price)
-me as operator
-me as DP (roughly double your price)

And guess which price point has been the only one clients hire me for? ...DP. I do have several years of experience working as a DP, and I have a few reels online, but I really thought this amazing new camera was going to be the beginning of a new business where I'd be sending it out so often that I'd have to buy 3 or 4 and hire out other DIT's, 1AC's, and Op's to allow me to take the DP jobs that came through my shop. Nope, not yet anyway. It improved my reel, increased my rate (and value), and has kept me at the cutting edge of the industry in my area, but I'm still having to do some salesman talk when dealing with clients who came to me expecting an HVX200 for their project!

Maybe it's the economy, maybe the general producer is still nervous about these new cameras and their work flow, maybe people are intimidated by RED cameras (I was treated like a rock star on my first several jobs with this camera), maybe the Scarlet just hasn't caught on as the universal workhorse, yet, that I predict it will.

Sometimes you have to adapt your business plan to meet the market.
 
Indeed, you have to meet the market. Just look at how many Epics (even Ms) are being sold on this forum. It looks everyone wants to sell before the end of the world.



Aaron Shirley said:
I started out with a similar business plan to yours, Alex (only on the East Coast). I bought my first RED (Scarlet-X), outfitted it (my kit also includes a case, lenses, and filters), and set up 3 price points: my kit, plus:
-me as DIT/1AC (close to your price)
-me as operator
-me as DP (roughly double your price)

And guess which price point has been the only one clients hire me for? ...DP. I do have several years of experience working as a DP, and I have a few reels online, but I really thought this amazing new camera was going to be the beginning of a new business where I'd be sending it out so often that I'd have to buy 3 or 4 and hire out other DIT's, 1AC's, and Op's to allow me to take the DP jobs that came through my shop. Nope, not yet anyway. It improved my reel, increased my rate (and value), and has kept me at the cutting edge of the industry in my area, but I'm still having to do some salesman talk when dealing with clients who came to me expecting an HVX200 for their project!

Maybe it's the economy, maybe the general producer is still nervous about these new cameras and their work flow, maybe people are intimidated by RED cameras (I was treated like a rock star on my first several jobs with this camera), maybe the Scarlet just hasn't caught on as the universal workhorse, yet, that I predict it will.

Sometimes you have to adapt your business plan to meet the market.
Click to expand...
 
i would of brought you on this job tomorrow if i had known, we wound up going 5D because of the lack of money for a camera. i also have my own lenses and support so its a bit easier for me to say that.
 
Raise your hand if you own a Scarlet and have paid back at least half from actual paying gigs...personal or rentals.

Be honest.

;)
 
Paul Schneider said:
Raise your hand if you own a Scarlet and have paid back at least half from actual paying gigs...personal or rentals.

Be honest.

;)
Click to expand...

I only paid for the body, which it paid itself off, my camera paid for everything else in my package. Through Dp jobs camera op jobs and rentals. All jobs included my camera being used. I'm not saying it's magically gonna pay for everything, but if you have the clients and have a good enough package to fit your target market, then you can make your money back, and get into the black. You just got to cater to your market needs, and provide a better package then your competition if your in the market for rentals.
 
While working a full time job and going to college, I have paid half of my camera off.

I never had the intention of making loads of money off of it. I did however have the intention of making films and helping other film makers out.

Owning the Scarlet has helped me tremendously in making connections through it.

I also shoot my own projects on it, which help my name get out there even more.

It all depends on what you want from a camera I guess.
 
I paid off my Scarlet brain and am now upgrading to an Epic. Keep in mind paying it off to me means how much money you made...not how much you paid back to your loan. Some of that money went towards living expenses and food and gas :-)

The market is soft (since there are a lot of owners) but hopefully making money isn't the only reason you got a Red.
 
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