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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

News From RED Day Feb 13

I am thrilled to experience new RED work flow. Thank you RED Team!
 
I'm not arguing against the fact that the Red One has more resolution than the F35 -- I don't even think anyone at Sony would make that claim.

I'm just trying to explain the reasons why the term "4K" to describe the Red One and the Dalsa has historically been controversial. Personally, I think everyone is placing a wee bit too much emphasis on numbers rather than results. Ever since I saw "Crossing the Line" at NAB, I could see that it was academic, the "is it 4K?" argument, not to mention the arguments against compression. Let's face it, the only reason why the term "4K" has such historical importance is that it has been used as a generalized descripton of the resolution of the 35mm format, so it has become a benchmark. But in practical terms, the Red One and 35mm are already in the same general resolution range in most applications.

The problem is that everyone likes reductive concepts like "4K" as a fast and dirty way to explain or describe something, without making the effort to type in "RAW" or "RGB data" or "measured resolution" to specify what they mean by "4K."
 
David, the logic Jim presented was only about measurable recorded resolution and he made that clear. He even had a 70' projection of a zone plate behind him as he spoke. Michael forgot to include that he also provided the measured resolution of a 4k 35mm film negative in that same sentence.
 
Yeah, Roberto is right. Jim really emphasized the fact that 35mm film does not abide by Moore's law. 4K seems to be the point at which digital does surpass the quality of film. Jim also emphasized that resolution is only one part of the image.

As far as RGB, RAW, measured res, etc. I don't think anything qualifies as 4K unless the output is viewable 4K. Unless you're getting 4xxx*2xxx (depending on the aspect ratio, maybe 1xxx) out from the sensor into your storage format without upscaling, it's not 4k. Just to be perfectly clear though, resolution is not everything.
 
Resolution might not be "everything", but it's an important and
necessary step on the road to "everything". And I think this is
the road that RED is walking, the road to everything ( ;

Talent not included
 
I have tried to be clear in every presentation:

1. We love film. But its days are numbered. It does not submit to Moore's Law.

2. To adequately replace film, or provide a good film alternative, you need:
A. Resolution
B. Color
C. Dynamic Range
D. The "feel" of film... or "filmic"

3. Our goal is to make film proud when we are done.

We feel that we are being respectful to film by acknowledging its 100 years of importance and not trying to do a "quick fix" to kick it out the door. Our aspiration is to deliver all that is good about film, without the negatives of film (price of film, bulk of film, processing cost and time of film, negative green effects of film).

We believe in getting our new alternative into the hands of many... not just the elite.

We understand that what we are doing is a bit disruptive... sorry about that.

We acknowledge that we are moving fast... new builds every time you turn around. We are covering a lot of ground quickly. Pay attention (or not).

We understand that we can seem (or be) aggressive and abrasive in our approach. But it just might take those traits to do what we are trying to accomplish. The best artists have the most personality disorders. :-)

Jim
 
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If you look at technical specs, we certainly are getting there though film negative is still the clear winner in terms of dynamic range.

We're at the point where the differences are getting more ephemeral and subjective rather than measurable scientifically. I'm waiting for the day when I see a digitally-shot movie and feel it has the same rich "beauty" as "Thin Red Line" or "Lawrence of Arabia". Seems like it will happen soon. Maybe Tom Lowe's movie!
 
David Mullen ASC said:
If you look at technical specs, we certainly are getting there though film negative is still the clear winner in terms of dynamic range.

We're at the point where the differences are getting more ephemeral and subjective rather than measurable scientifically. I'm waiting for the day when I see a digitally-shot movie and feel it has the same rich "beauty" as "Thin Red Line" or "Lawrence of Arabia". Seems like it will happen soon. Maybe Tom Lowe's movie!
Click to expand...

David... I certainly agree with you (as always). I'm pretty happy that all we have is one obstacle left. Monstro?

Jim
 
Jannard said:
negative green effects of film.
Click to expand...
In my opinion this is a very important point often underestimated. Making a "recyclable" technology is crucial for the future of the planet (human being included :-)
 
Luca Immesi said:
In my opinion this is a very important point often underestimated. Making a "recyclable" technology is crucial for the future of the planet (human being included :-)
Click to expand...

Bravo !

Red should be as green as possible
 
David Mullen ASC said:
If you look at technical specs, we certainly are getting there though film negative is still the clear winner in terms of dynamic range.

We're at the point where the differences are getting more ephemeral and subjective rather than measurable scientifically. I'm waiting for the day when I see a digitally-shot movie and feel it has the same rich "beauty" as "Thin Red Line" or "Lawrence of Arabia". Seems like it will happen soon. Maybe Tom Lowe's movie!
Click to expand...

Now the pressure is on! :sifone:
 
Luca Immesi said:
In my opinion this is a very important point often underestimated. Making a "recyclable" technology is crucial for the future of the planet (human being included :-)
Click to expand...

Seeing how RED is making the new system as modular, it is going to create a lot less waste than probably any other camera company ( no buying a whole new rig ). this is a step in the right direction but i agree, the full life cycle of the product should be addressed. apple is finally starting to do it, though who knows what really happens once they get the technology back.
 
So, did anyone see or experience any working DSMC prototypes?

I was in Group C - probably because of my low post count here...

I have to say it was fun, everyone was very polite, all the accessories were cool, but really I didn't learn or experience anything new that I couldn't have found out right here on this forum.

It's a good thing I live in Los Angeles, because if I had to fly from somewhere to see what we saw in Group C I would be PISSED. I was hoping for a chance to place a deposit on a Scarlet! I even made sure my credit cards were completely payed off and ready! That's what I get for having too high of expectations hahaha.

I'd love to see some working protos or shots of them working.

I did get to see the Skateboarder footage and the cuts from the music video that are in the Red M-X Reel the day they were being filmed, and I was very excited and happy about it, and to see them a month later projected on the big screen was AWESOME!

Thanks for hosting the event, and RenMar was a good choice of stages for you guys to buy.

Also wondering if those giant trucks in the first stage were the pass vans that drove all the red employees up from Lake Forest. Hell of a way to carpool!
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I'm not arguing against the fact that the Red One has more resolution than the F35 -- I don't even think anyone at Sony would make that claim.

I'm just trying to explain the reasons why the term "4K" to describe the Red One and the Dalsa has historically been controversial. Personally, I think everyone is placing a wee bit too much emphasis on numbers rather than results. Ever since I saw "Crossing the Line" at NAB, I could see that it was academic, the "is it 4K?" argument, not to mention the arguments against compression. Let's face it, the only reason why the term "4K" has such historical importance is that it has been used as a generalized descripton of the resolution of the 35mm format, so it has become a benchmark. But in practical terms, the Red One and 35mm are already in the same general resolution range in most applications.

The problem is that everyone likes reductive concepts like "4K" as a fast and dirty way to explain or describe something, without making the effort to type in "RAW" or "RGB data" or "measured resolution" to specify what they mean by "4K."
Click to expand...

David,

I still didn't get impression that you have or use R1 daily.

Or maybe you would need M-X desperately to get a better idea what is going on here...

Only with the movies like a Baraka, Lawrence of Arabia or Terrence Malick's The New World film can still beat digital acquisition in each parameter of image quality (resolution, dynamic range, color,etc,..) until one day some of the lager sensors (Monstro,...) with more resolution, etc,... would hit the market.

Jannard said:
I have tried to be clear in every presentation:

1. We love film. But its days are numbered. It does not submit to Moore's Law.

2. To adequately replace film, or provide a good film alternative, you need:
A. Resolution
B. Color
C. Dynamic Range
D. The "feel" of film... or "filmic"

3. Our goal is to make film proud when we are done.

We feel that we are being respectful to film by acknowledging its 100 years of importance and not trying to do a "quick fix" to kick it out the door. Our aspiration is to deliver all that is good about film, without the negatives of film (price of film, bulk of film, processing cost and time of film, negative green effects of film).

We believe in getting our new alternative into the hands of many... not just the elite.

We understand that what we are doing is a bit disruptive... sorry about that.

We acknowledge that we are moving fast... new builds every time you turn around. We are covering a lot of ground quickly. Pay attention (or not).

We understand that we can seem (or be) aggressive and abrasive in our approach. But it just might take those traits to do what we are trying to accomplish. The best artists have the most personality disorders. :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim,

for these nice words that are very easy explanation that has a very clear message

or explanation about what is RED Digital Cinema actually doing.

With a great hope that as many people are getting it even if some of them still have doubts about what is going on here.
 
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