News From RED Day Feb 13

[J Davis]

Sorry J Davis, but I think the way I worded things might have gotten you a bit excited. From what the guy at the booth said, it sounded like it might be nearer to the end of summer...

Aye it did raise the pulse a bit. End of summer is what was expected

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The wheels seem to be an option over handgrips (a compliment to your kit). They looked like a very neat, super low profile, light, tough, and possibly even very comfortable way to go... there could be times when they would be the way to go... I am pretty sure you can even take the legs off and go with nothing but the wheels.

I didn't grab them. I really couldn't get away from the M-X footage on the Panny 11/12 series.

 

[David Rasberry]

Is that a servo zoom motor on the gunner picture with the 17-50?

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks for sharing! I had to cancel trip cause of shoot so I really appreciate this...any update on when they think the RED MB will be available or was it just a crowd pleaser for show?

 

[Michael T O'Connor]

No date unfortunately. From what it sounded like, its still very early on in beta (the guy commented that they were up until the early hours of the morning making sure it worked), so I would assume it's going to be awhile.

The newest public build of REDCine-X is 101, and they were using 135 or 136. They also most likely had a newer firmware. This is purely specification, but I would expect at least a month, looking at build recent REDCine-X build release intervals.

To the others who went to RED Day:

Jim said something about 3D having two parts, an A and a B part. Does anyone remember what A & B were?

 

[David Wilson]

No date unfortunately. From what it sounded like, its still very early on in beta (the guy commented that they were up until the early hours of the morning making sure it worked), so I would assume it's going to be awhile.

The newest public build of REDCine-X is 101, and they were using 135 or 136. They also most likely had a newer firmware. This is purely specification, but I would expect at least a month, looking at build recent REDCine-X build release intervals.

To the others who went to RED Day:

Jim said something about 3D having two parts, an A and a B part. Does anyone remember what A & B were?

I think the A part was providing the industry with (smaller) cameras for existing 3D rigs (ie. ET). Part B was then RED's own plans for 3D which I don't remember Jim elaborating on. This is what I remember (but I have a notoriously bad memory).

 

[Perry Wilson]

http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac227/bwebbcam/IMG_8776.jpg[/IMG]

Is that the 2.8" LCD ??? I am so stoked and I cant figure out what to go for I love having interchangeable lenses( using a 7D now) But I dont think I can pass on that amazing fixed price... It has so many modules for way less than they are worth... the only thing I was worried about was the 2.8" LCD it comes with but if that is it then I believe that'l do... Also have any of you guys seen where the REDVOLT battery will go on the Fixed scarlet without the side handle, and if you do get the side handle and us the battery in the grip do you have to use a chord to sync it?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Thanks Michael for your great feed back.

I would like you to comment on the following statment as I didn't get your math...

The increase of resolution on Mysterium-x is mainly due to debayer magic and pushes the border of resolution obtained with a 4k Bayer sensor (or 4.5). I don't get your increase of resolution by comparison to another wendor...

[*]Sony FF35 is about 1.7K. If 1.7K = 1080p, then 3.5K =4K. (1700/1920 = 88.5%, 3500/4096 is 85.5%)

Thanks

Pat

 

[Chuck Z]

What specifically did Jim say about Monstro and its development. Can we expect to see it by late 2011?

 

[Steve Das]

Part B was then RED's own plans for 3D which I don't remember Jim elaborating on. This is what I remember (but I have a notoriously bad memory).

Later I think someone asked about a scarlet 3-D rig and believe he said
they would have one and it would come out probably in a matter
of months after scarlet was released. Which I took to mean 3-11 months.

 

[jimhare]

What specifically did Jim say about Monstro and its development. Can we expect to see it by late 2011?

No public mention of monstro and didn't come up in the QA. Did anyone have a private conversation and get any info?

 

[jimhare]

Jim basically wanted to point out that you get a loss of resolution in every format, film scans included, and so to single Red out (4k is really 3.2k etc.) was a bit uninteresting.

The increase is a side note, this just addressed the old criticism.

Thanks Michael for your great feed back.

I would like you to comment on the following statment as I didn't get your math...

The increase of resolution on Mysterium-x is mainly due to debayer magic and pushes the border of resolution obtained with a 4k Bayer sensor (or 4.5). I don't get your increase of resolution by comparison to another wendor...



Thanks

Pat

 

[Michael T O'Connor]

Thanks Michael for your great feed back.

I would like you to comment on the following statment as I didn't get your math...

The increase of resolution on Mysterium-x is mainly due to debayer magic and pushes the border of resolution obtained with a 4k Bayer sensor (or 4.5). I don't get your increase of resolution by comparison to another wendor...



Thanks

Pat

Jimhare already said it, but pretty much, Jim was saying that RED One should be counted as 4K, even though its true res after debayer is actually 3.5K since 1080p cameras don't truly deliver 1080p either(since they also have to debayer).

No public mention of monstro and didn't come up in the QA. Did anyone have a private conversation and get any info?

He mentioned Monstro very briefly in the QA session I was in. He didn't really elaborate on it at all. All he said was that it was in development still and that they were also putting down some ideas for the sensor after Monstro.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Jimhare already said it, but pretty much, Jim was saying that RED One should be counted as 4K, even though its true res after debayer is actually 3.5K since 1080p cameras don't truly deliver 1080p either(since they also have to debayer).

Well, to be accurate, only single-sensor cameras using a Bayer CFA need to use debayering algorithms -- some 1080P cameras have three sensors. And some use RGB striping instead of Bayer CFA's.

A lot of this controversy is just over whether a term is being used accurately or whether it is being misused as a marketing device.

"4K" is a loaded term because it traditionally has meant 4K RGB film scans, and more generally, a measure of line resolution, and less often, a measure of the horizontal pixels of a sensor in a digital cinema camera (since there have been only two 4K sensor cameras so far, the Red One and the Dalsa) whereas "1080P" has traditionally referred to an HDTV recording format, plus there are so many 1080P cameras that the term is less associated with actual measurable resolution -- people don't assume a 1080P consumer camera delivers the same resolution as an expensive 1080P pro camera.

Dalsa went through the same ringer over their use of the term "4K".

In the end, all it may take is simply more digital cinema cameras on the market all being referred to by the number of horizontal pixels in the sensor -- if that becomes an industry standard, then no one is going to blink twice at referring to the Red One as a "4K" camera. Of course, then you get into the problem of the F35 / Genesis sensor, which is believe is 6K across, but is not marketed as a 6K camera. Thus the problem of the number referring to pixels in the sensor. Now you could say that it refers to recorded pixels and thus the Red One is a 4.5K camera whereas the F35 is a 1.9K camera, but then you'd want to be more accurate and label the Red One as a "4.5K RAW" camera and the F35 as a "1.9K RGB" camera. But even that becomes problematic because "1.9K RGB" sounds like measured resolution, not a recording format. Plus what happens when an F35 is someday turned into a file-based camera and the entire RGB-striped "6K" sensor image is recorded unconverted to RGB? Thus the problem of making "4K" refer to recorded horizontal pixels.

So what about it referring to measurable resolution? Well, that's problematic too, since testing methodology can lead to different values being achieved. Plus it may not take into account aliasing.

In other words, we are talking about language, which is always evolving. But in the case of manufacturers, all of these numbers, whatever they are referring to, are marketing devices and hence the controversies that arise over usage unless they all agree to common definitions and terms. Maybe someday when the majority of digital cine cameras all have single Bayer sensors, there will be some consensus on how they are described, similar to how DSLR's are marketed.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

Later I think someone asked about a scarlet 3-D rig and believe he said
they would have one and it would come out probably in a matter
of months after scarlet was released. Which I took to mean 3-11 months.

I think (if I remember right because there was a lot of info) was that they were talking about building a 2/3 RIG. This was the second part answer to the question of what the 3D plans were.

Overall, it was emphasized that they see 4K and 3D as two of their major directions.

 

[J Davis]

I like David's post (as usual), and measurable resolution is dependent on what debayering algorithm is used by what company. As RED recently improved theirs, measurable resolution has become a moving target.

I think a lot of mistrust that RED received during their infancy stemmed from the mis-spoken terms of 4K-rgb and 4K-raw. I know in conversation I am careful to specify which I am talking about.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Well, to be accurate, only single-sensor cameras using a Bayer CFA need to use debayering algorithms -- some 1080P cameras have three sensors. And some use RGB striping instead of Bayer CFA's.

A lot of this controversy is just over whether a term is being used accurately or whether it is being misused as a marketing device.

"4K" is a loaded term because it traditionally has meant 4K RGB film scans, and more generally, a measure of line resolution, and less often, a measure of the horizontal pixels of a sensor in a digital cinema camera (since there have been only two 4K sensor cameras so far, the Red One and the Dalsa) whereas "1080P" has traditionally referred to an HDTV recording format, plus there are so many 1080P cameras that the term is less associated with actual measurable resolution -- people don't assume a 1080P consumer camera delivers the same resolution as an expensive 1080P pro camera.

Dalsa went through the same ringer over their use of the term "4K".

In the end, all it may take is simply more digital cinema cameras on the market all being referred to by the number of horizontal pixels in the sensor -- if that becomes an industry standard, then no one is going to blink twice at referring to the Red One as a "4K" camera. Of course, then you get into the problem of the F35 / Genesis sensor, which is believe is 6K across, but is not marketed as a 6K camera. Thus the problem of the number referring to pixels in the sensor. Now you could say that it refers to recorded pixels and thus the Red One is a 4.5K camera whereas the F35 is a 1.9K camera, but then you'd want to be more accurate and label the Red One as a "4.5K RAW" camera and the F35 as a "1.9K RGB" camera. But even that becomes problematic because "1.9K RGB" sounds like measured resolution, not a recording format. Plus what happens when an F35 is someday turned into a file-based camera and the entire RGB-striped "6K" sensor image is recorded unconverted to RGB? Thus the problem of making "4K" refer to recorded horizontal pixels.

So what about it referring to measurable resolution? Well, that's problematic too, since testing methodology can lead to different values being achieved. Plus it may not take into account aliasing.

In other words, we are talking about language, which is always evolving. But in the case of manufacturers, all of these numbers, whatever they are referring to, are marketing devices and hence the controversies that arise over usage unless they all agree to common definitions and terms. Maybe someday when the majority of digital cine cameras all have single Bayer sensors, there will be some consensus on how they are described, similar to how DSLR's are marketed.

It's more about a pure and visible FACTS than it is about a language when we are talking about R1 and F35 resolution here:

Those images were taken, upscaled and cropped in Photoshop from original PSD files provided by Lightiron Digital and Michael Ciouni - MX and F35 tests.

Upper image is a corner crop that was upscaled from F35 with '6K across' sensor 'as a "1.9K RGB" camera' to 4096/4K.

and the image down is a crop from the original 4096/4K size of the Red One 'as a "4.5K RAW" camera' with "3.5K measured resolution".

In this case here is absolutely obvious that RESOLUTION MATTERS.

At the end it could be more about the programming language synchronicity...

 

[Thomas Koch]

After going and listening I'm not sure what the point of RED DAY was. There was an 8 hour presentation (ok, maybe 1) about Red Cine X from Michael of Light Iron Digital. It was a great presentation, and after it, I'm going to dig further into RED CINE X (and buy a rocket Card)

Everyone was crowded around the new cameras and stuff, which won't even be available for Months and Months.
Stage:
Tattoo (starting in a few weeks)
Stage 2 (After Tattoo)
Stage 3 (after Stage 2)
Stage 4
SCARLET 2/3" Fixed (AFter Stage 3 for sure, probably after stage 4!) For RED Owners
SCARLET 2/3" Fixed for everyone else (I'm guessing October)
S35 Scarlet (December?, January?)

Point is, these cameras are not even close to being done. If you want to shoot red, buy a RED ONE. If not, don't hold your breath.

I hate being pessimistic, but that's the what I gathered from the event. That being said, I just bought a RED ONE and will upgrade to epic and get a Scarlet (10 actually) as soon as they allow.

The cameras are just too good and the post tools are getting really incredible!

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks David and Sanjin - the controversy is going on with some clarifications from time to time. But, we are learning ...

 

[Darren Orange]

Jim, said that they believe in 4K and 3D, they are working on support in what seemed like all areas but the details are otherwise no comment.