Newbie Questions About Nikon and Red

[Joel Kaye]

Many people do not know how to run a business yet they invest their life savings or borrow and beg to try. Many businesses fail. Yet many succeed as well. Buying a Red should not be any different.

That's it in a nutshell.

I really think the big opportunity is for high level creative people who want to do their own independent pet projects on a shoestring. They ARE the industry. The only thing that keeps them shackled is cost of production. And distribution.

Morgan Freeman tried it... not sure how it's really flying yet. But that's the idea.

 

[number6]

Number6 With all due respect you took my quote out of context. I'm in no way fearful that my skill and talents will land me work for the rest of my career. My original comment was with regard to how easy it will be for the inexperienced people to tarnish reds name. It happened 5 years ago with FCP and the editing industry has only now started to convince producers it's a viable option.

_mike

See your point, but I think the camera will stand on its oun. A good measuring stick is the old Canon Series of XL cameras. People put out good and bad product from that camera, but those who mattered could distinguish between the camera and the user. I think RED will be more user friendly in many respects (not from the automatic shooter's perspective, but from the new-to-the-profession professionals) that will make it harder to exhibit bad footage from the camera than it was from the XL cameras. That is, the Redccode RAW means the user has to at least have some post-type connections or experience, or the footage will never see the light of day. I think the pricepoint, as well as the moderate complexity will be just enough to insure that only the better captures will be seen and rein in the release of embarrassingly bad visuals.

 

[Mike Prevette]

You guys are correct theoretically, but this industry is run by producers. Producers are essentially insurance to a production, they make sure qualified people are in every position, and the right tools for the job have been gathered up. unfortunately they are also in the position to save money. These are two opposing ideals. So they rarely take chances, and need a LOT of hand holding to embrace new technologies. So is some newbie right out of the gate the right person to do that? Will the temptation of their low price overwhelm a usually conservative producer? We shall see this is all theoretical now.

What I do know, is that when a producer gets burned by a person place or thing they tell other producers about it. What you don't get many of in this business is a second chance! So don't ruin your name, or Red's name by going out there and promising the world without being able to back it up.

_mike

 

[number6]

You guys are correct theoretically, but this industry is run by producers. Producers are essentially insurance to a production, they make sure qualified people are in every position, and the right tools for the job have been gathered up. unfortunately they are also in the position to save money. These are two opposing ideals. So they rarely take chances, and need a LOT of hand holding to embrace new technologies. So is some newbie right out of the gate the right person to do that? Will the temptation of their low price overwhelm a usually conservative producer? We shall see this is all theoretical now.

What I do know, is that when a producer gets burned by a person place or thing they tell other producers about it. What you don't get many of in this business is a second chance! So don't ruin your name, or Red's name by going out there and promising the world without being able to back it up.

_mike

We are actually talking apples and oranges here since I am thinking along "self-contained" operations lines, and not the pre-RED model of movie making. Thus, I will bow out of this discussion since I, like Michael Vick, have no dog in this fight.

edit: besides, it is about time for NASCAR racing on abc.

 

[Mike Prevette]

See your point, but I think the camera will stand on its oun. A good measuring stick is the old Canon Series of XL cameras. People put out good and bad product from that camera, but those who mattered could distinguish between the camera and the user. I think RED will be more user friendly in many respects (not from the automatic shooter's perspective, but from the new-to-the-profession professionals) that will make it harder to exhibit bad footage from the camera than it was from the XL cameras. That is, the Redccode RAW means the user has to at least have some post-type connections or experience, or the footage will never see the light of day. I think the pricepoint, as well as the moderate complexity will be just enough to insure that only the better captures will be seen and rein in the release of embarrassingly bad visuals.

Thats true, however not many producers 'click' with the ideas behind a RAW based workflow. Many times in the US after a shoot, a DP never sees the footage again. So now having the producer have to pay the DP to oversee the coloring/transfer. Then you have the producers from the video side that don't even think footage should go through a colorist! Those folks are in for a nasty supprise.

 

[Joel Kaye]

So now having the producer have to pay the DP to oversee the coloring/transfer. Then you have the producers from the video side that don't even think footage should go through a colorist! Those folks are in for a nasty supprise.

For the film guys it's the same as ever. They don't have to pay the DP to be a colorist. Grab the raw footage and give it to The Orphanage.

For video guys - pick a LUT in advance or on the set and OneLight it through RedCine.

Yeah - REDusers are going to have to be well versed pros just like always and find out what the producer wants delivered and give it to them. But right now that's not going really well for a lot of people. Look at Mike Curtis' blog and he outlines how bad post has been going for a lot of people.

I just don't think your "waiter with a red" would ever get the job in the first place... so he's not a threat.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

An integral part of any process to get a crew together lies in the countless number of interviews etc held to establish the fundamental base core of people on any given production. For someone to be offered an interview based solely on the fact that they have a RED One is potentially a hazard that may occur as inexperienced reservation holders take charge of their units. Surely they will get 'rumbled' as being complete dreamers during the whole interview process? No show-reel in large formats, unfamiliarity with the equipment, techniques, work flow, chain of command etc. If they don't get caught out though whose fault is that?

I make no bones about the fact that I have very little knowledge of the required skills as a camera operator at the level required to tame RED. You won't see me touting my availability, services etc with the camera until I feel I can stand my own professionally and deliver the goods. That time taken to master this puppy will allow me to learn what is required of me. I am also looking to specialize in one main area of filming (underwater macro and 'super macro') so my understanding and knowledge will be far removed from that required by others with dreams of producing full blown blockbusters.

Each to their own. However I do find it a tad unsavory though that there should exist any feelings of resentment aimed at those with a desire to learn. Many may fail but some will prevail. Surely that in itself is cause for a toast, with RED wine of course.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Finner]

Seung... No need to defend yourself to Finner. He tries to undermine because he fears for his (soon-to-be) antiquated way of earning money. He fears you.

Oh yes I have such a big fear of your award winning cinematography and directing skills #6. You are comming hard and fast so look out Speilberg!

It is a shame so few have seen your true genius #6. So please everyone treat yourself to a cine experience that is unrivalled world wide and view some of #6's finest work like the renound fan favorite "Raegan's Naughty Goat" or the current Oscar front runner "No Place Like Betty Lou's dance". All work that anyone with experience should fear because in just a few months he will be taking your job from you. Seung Han you really need to see these beauties because I am sure after viewing them you will be rushing to team up with #6 on your next project. Really who needs experience or cinematography knowledge when you have the raw skill and talent #6 always talks about and truely comes through and displays with the clips below. So everyone please enjoy and try and learn a few things from the genius.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

 

[Andrew Benz]

 

[Finner]

Nice pic Andrew

By the way you did not give your review on #6's fine work and how it will de-throne DP's and directors accross America. Please share your thoughts.

Please others also join in and give your 5-stars or thumbs up or ripe tomatoes or which ever scale you can come up with to review #6's masterpieces. I will give you all the links again below.


http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Tend to share same kind of thoughts as Paul and Number6. Film industry is one of the last fields which has not yet been completely changed by modern technology, and thanks to RED, this wave has now started.

In early 80's computers had to be maintained by operators. When a disk was broken, a rep of the manufacturer put a new one in his briefcase and reserved a seat to the first flight and took off to the customer to change the HDD. Nice service, but a rather expensive system. When PC's became popular the argumentation of the professional operators was pretty much the same as what we read now on these pages.

We've all seen this same phenomenon in different contexts. Once text editing systems came in, a huge number of people learned to type quickly with ten fingers. Ordinary people are nowadays able to maintain their computers. Large masses of peoples are able to use digital cameras, and the profession of running a small photostore is more or less gone.

So, my guess is that in couple years operating a digital film camera is not found to be a big deal at all. We will find huge numbers of people taking decent shots with tools like RED. After all, from the technical point of view, operating a camera like RED is not that difficult, especially as there are (will be) the histograms, focus assistants etc. which will help beginners to get started. And when people own the camera themselves, they will have a proper chance to learn with time.

In the end of the day, still, some people will take better shots than others. The wonderful thing is that RED will imply the technical quality is no longer a blocking factor for most people. Instead, what will matter is the eye of taking good shots and the talent to tell a story by pictures.

RED has already started the revolution, and there is no way to go backwards or to build a shelter not giving the latest technology to everybody who wants to buy it. I'm pretty sure the big factories are also already preparing their answers to the challenge set by RED. Of course, they are fat organizations compared to RED, but eventually the price of tools will go down. Thanks to Jim, technology is no longer overpriced!

 

[Jason Francois]

Wow, what a thread. I've seen this type of "don't buy it if you're not brilliant" thread a lot lately and I honestly think it's ridiculous and is also giving way too much credit to RED.

RED is amazing in my opinion and revolutionary, but I've also been around long enough to know that there have been many revolutions in the film and video industry over the decades. While looking back and comparing them to RED today may make them seem evolutionary.... at the time they were revolutionary and the same types of things happened. People bought into it when others thought they shouldn't and you know what happend? Sometimes those that jumped in and learned and embraced became visionaries and even moreover the industry didn't collapse, it became stronger.

People like me, writer/producer/wanna-be-shooters will buy cameras and play and people that think they are great will buy and play and some that are truly great will join the fray as well. All in all it wont matter for much when the next revolution comes and we are long forgotten.

Don't get me wrong. I think that RED is something like we haven't seen in a LONG time or maybe even at the top of the list of great things that we've seen in the industry throughout film history, but it's still just another vehicle and still available to public.

I don't know much about the technical side of being a DP, but I would love to learn... and if I can turn my finances around and make #366 reality, I won't make any apologies and nor should anybody else. And if I can get it and don't have time to use it I will set it up on a very firmly built shelf and walk by and touch it everyday and I still wont apologize. Same for the Ferrari that I can't drive parked in my garage.

Furthermore, this argument about tainting the rental pool, etc. seems to come from the same person that sits at the blackjack table in Vegas and gets mad because you hit on an 18 and took their KING. It was my fucking KING. It would have been your KING if I hadn't taken it, so get over it.

J.

 

[Chris Parker]

So, my guess is that in couple years operating a digital film camera is not found to be a big deal at all. We will find huge numbers of people taking decent shots with tools like RED. After all, from the technical point of view, operating a camera like RED is not that difficult, especially as there are (will be) the histograms, focus assistants etc. which will help beginners to get started. And when people own the camera themselves, they will have a proper chance to learn with time.

That is ridiculous. Who the hell actually thinks that the only thing to shooting great images is having a histogram and damn focus assist to look at?!?

Lighting is an art form. It's about shaping light. Matching light angles from one shot to the next. Good commercial DOPs don't make $4K/day (in my market anyways) for nothing.

Sure, there will be some new guys come up after playing with their REDs for a few years. The ones with real talent. They would have risen to the top anyways. Well, maybe having a RED to experiment with WILL actually help a few people make it as a DOP.

But Finner is bang on that buying a RED won't make you better at lighting. Now, his attitude is a little strange. I don't quite understand why he cares about this so much. If some schlep wants to drop $30K on a camera and call himself a DOP, why should he care? This guy poses no (I mean...zero) threat to any established DOP out there, so why would he sweat it even for a second. I guess he would say that he is just trying to be nice by giving advice to these newbies in the film biz. But his harshness tells me that is really not the case.

Don't get me wrong Finner, I have liked your posts since way back in the old video assist on set with the RED thread that I started about 6 months ago. In there, I quickly realized that you were one of few people on this forum at that time that have actually spent time on bigger budget film sets, and you know how it works.

That's why you don't have a thing to worry about. You think a producer is going to rent the craft guy's RED? Ha! He'll take yours, or the rental houses. That's right. It's the rental houses that you have to worry more about than the 'dime-a-dozen' REDs that producers won't give the time of day to.

Look at the HVX200. There must be tens of thousands of those in the market, but whenever one gets used on a commercial set, do they get it from joe blow? Or from a rental house at full price? Same will be the case with the RED, even moreso.

 

[Seung Han]

You guys all seemed more experienced and informed than me on cinematography so is there anything else you can add to Paul's answers on demystifying the options for mounts, adaptors and lenses for the Red.

And also, I hereby solemnly swear to hire a great DP for my films as well as rent out my Reds on downtimes at a fair market value in Seoul, Korea minus me as the DP...:wink:

 

[number6]

Oh yes I have such a big fear of your award winning cinematography and directing skills #6. You are comming hard and fast so look out Speilberg!

It is a shame so few have seen your true genius #6. So please everyone treat yourself to a cine experience that is unrivalled world wide and view some of #6's finest work like the renound fan favorite "Raegan's Naughty Goat" or the current Oscar front runner "No Place Like Betty Lou's dance". All work that anyone with experience should fear because in just a few months he will be taking your job from you. Seung Han you really need to see these beauties because I am sure after viewing them you will be rushing to team up with #6 on your next project. Really who needs experience or cinematography knowledge when you have the raw skill and talent #6 always talks about and truely comes through and displays with the clips below. So everyone please enjoy and try and learn a few things from the genius.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

Finner, I gather by your post that you are giving my videos 2 (middle) fingers up? Is that a positive "Nuts" or a negative "Nuts", general? But let's just say the review is accurate, which of course proves my point. These videos were not shot on a RED! End of discussion. Game, set, match to Number 6!

 

[Seung Han]

Also, to give this debate a little perspective on why a filmmaker would want to buy this camera...

Here's my perspective on tools for creating art, I am only interested in the technology in so far as it can be used in the process to realize my inspiration. When I worked professionaly in post about a decade ago, I never really got that familiar with the software or hardware I was using, and I went through a lot of different things. The companies that hired me as an editor/compositor hired me for my creative sensibilities. If they had a new software or hardware, they got someone to train me for a week and then let me loose. I went through PSD, Illustrator, AFX, Avid, FCP, Media Composer, the Sphere, Avid Illusion, Director... The clients which included Proctor & Gamble, Swatch, MSN, IFM, PBS, Tiger Toys, etc...always seemed happy and paid me good money (actually I don't know how the market is today in post but back then it was pretty ridiculous), enough for me to start my own businesses.

On the film side, I've made two shorts on 16mm and three on mini-DV. They've done fairly well, festivals and awards leading to some grants and interest in my feature scripts. I own two DV cameras, DVX2000 and PD150. I am prepping to shoot a feature script this winter and started doing research since I haven't really looked at the tech advances in the last 3-4 years busy writing. So, when I decided to shoot on HD, I looked at rental prices. $17,000 for F 23 for 31 Days. Then I discovered the Red about a month ago, and I thought it was fantastic. It seemed to unify a lot of my background except 35mm photography, thus the reason for posting this thread. So I decided to buy two which will probably be too late for this winter production, but it was perfect to shoot another script next summer which I have already started raising money for. I will just rent the camera out to my production company...

On the downtime, I intend to help out other Indie filmmakers out here in Seoul who have great scripts but have a hard time raising funds. I figure I can do a co-production with them with my equipment and services...

I don't think this sounds like such a bad idea does it? I mean I can afford the two cameras and already I have raised half the budget for my next shoot which should pay for one of the cameras. Wouldn't you buy them?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Lighting is an art form. It's about shaping light.

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal. If one has the passion, one will definitely learn. This is why I quite don't get Finner's concern. Perhaps should add, telling the story -or a good story- is a completely different issue and would not like to claim being there.

 

[Evan Owen]

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal.
...

Except that what he's referring to has little to do with the camera one uses. DPing encompasses much, much more than simply knowing how to operate something technically. It's something that can really only be learned from experience–alot of it.

Having a RED will not improve anything you shoot, if you can't light or frame properly in the first place. If anything, it'll just make your lighting and composition errors more obvious. Not to mention choice of subject matter... sorry #6.

 

[Finner]

I don't quite understand why he cares about this so much. If some schlep wants to drop $30K on a camera and call himself a DOP, why should he care? This guy poses no (I mean...zero) threat to any established DOP out there, so why would he sweat it even for a second. I guess he would say that he is just trying to be nice by giving advice to these newbies in the film biz. But his harshness tells me that is really not the case.

Honestly I did not mean to be that harsh or mean at first. I was only trying to let people see that the camera will not make that big a difference if the other skills are not their to go with it. You are correct in saying that I am only trying to give advice. But HOLY SHIT people are actually planning to take big loans because they feel simply owning a red will make a bussiness for them. Now regista and some others I am not trying to crush peoples dreams and I am not trying to hold others back all I am saying is it takes more then a good idea and a good camera to create something good. I can understand how people get these ideas though because inexperienced people in any work field or sport often do not know how little they know until they get a little experience. I know everyday I realize how much more I need to learn. Also if you are planning not to be a DOP hire one with a red rather then buying one. DOP's with cameras will bring them in tow for very cheap and the directors or producers can spend all the extra cash they are shelling out on the actual project. Seriously on a lower budget independant I would be suprised if the DP would charge from free to $5,000 max for rental for the whole film with a full camera system worth over $50,000. DOP's make their money off mainstream work and commercials not independents. So if you are a talented producer or director with a fantastic idea and script and have some raw talent finding a fairly skilled DOP with a camera will be one of your easiest tasks in the process of creating your film. I have shot shorts and even 1 indie feature for craft service and a weekly gas fill up and know of 2 mentors of mine that DP huge 50-150million feature block busters that do at least 1 short and one indie feature for free every year. They both have taught me that you have to give back to the community and by doing free projects you get to try and do things that your hands are tied down on when doing full pay gig's. With that knowledge what kind of sense does it make for a producer or director that does not plan to be a DOP to buy a camera?

Now as far as being harsh or mean I just get a little upset when people state that experienced people are living in fear of inexperienced people that have nothing under their belt but will be getting a red soon. A lot of members on here can answer a lot of questions someone would have about filmaking or tech info and openly give it and do what they can to help but I do not think some members realize what an insult it is to state that they are all fearful of a rookie with a red one.

 

[Seung Han]

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal. If one has the passion, one will definitely learn. This is why I quite don't get Finner's concern. Perhaps should add, telling the story -or a good story- is a completely different issue and would not like to claim being there.

In the end, I think that is what most of us are saying, some are just being more pessimistic about this learning curve.

I have worked with people at all levels and sometimes somebody who doesn't even know the nomenclature of a specific field will surprise me bacuse they will have innate talent or sensitivity towards a certain area of perception.

When I was head of a graphics deptartment I had very little tech knowledge but the company was confident in putting me in that position. Once in a while I had to hire new staff and initially I sought out people with software background and I was never happy with their work. Then I started taking risks and went with people who had different art backgrounds and a natural instinct in general composition, lighting and colors. Those hires worked out great. They would sit down with photoshop and AFX and just understood naturally about tweaking color balance, tonal mapping, contrast, hues, saturation, etc... Because they instinctively had a great eye for those things. And, trust me, you learn the software fairly quick in a fast professional environment. Why? Because in the end it is just a tool. Again this was when Post was moving away from tapes to digital so there weren't that many young artists with software background. I'm sure it is very different now.

I think many people who are entrenched in old modes are going to have to continue adapting to new models of produciton and distribution. Change is not a bad thing, unless you are lazy and untalented. If that is the case, you will always resent change and those who have talent because in revolutions the strong will survive...