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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Newbie Questions About Nikon and Red

Hey Finner,

When I first bought my DVX2000 and PD-150 I did not know how to use DV cameras since my two previous short films were shot on 16mm. It did not stop me from making shorts that have gone to festivals and win awards, some of them cash prizes. Those shorts have led me to investors who are willing to bet money on a feature project written by me. Again, many people have different reasons for getting this camera. You are being very presumptuous of thinking your reasons are the only valid ones.

You seem very knowledgable about cinematography, so do you have any input on my particular questions? If not, please stop with the negativity. Also, your views on the RED seem like the complete opposite of the man who actually built them. Maybe you should take the time to read Jim's post and re-focus your views on who this camera was built for...

"We recognize that delivering the camera is only the beginning. We are anxious to help our customers "learn" how to use it. We can't provide the script or the actors, but we can help newcomers deal with the new problems they face with pro equipment. Pulling focus, manual everything, workflow. We hope to create a series of "boot camps" for RED. We also want to encourage a community that shares knowledge. We'll step in whenever we can to help online.

Pros will have to adapt from existing equipment to RED. That will be pretty easy. Those stepping up from an HVX or DVcam will have their hands full. We want to be there to help the learning experience be a fun one."

- Jim Jannard
 
I agree with what you say Seung. What I am posting in regards to ownership of the camera is just what I have seen to work for most in the industry as I have seen many more fail then make it. The ones that most often seem to make it are those that focus in on the craft they wish to excell at. By that I mean if you are a DP or one with that goal or even a director/DP or one with that goal the purchase of a red is a great choice and probably much better then the purchase of a boom mic and mixer. Just like if your goal is to be a director then be a director and put as much of your budgets into your projects where you have to and save money by renting a camera or better yet getting a great deal on a DP that comes with a RED for a great package price.

If you have a great script (sounds like you have been at this for a while Seung so I would bet your script and ideas get better each time) hence with a great script and good direction finding a promising DP with a RED that may even be willing to shoot your movie for free or close to it would not be hard. I would bet you could post on here a DP with red wanted in korea post and if you paid their flight and gave them a place to stay I think you would be suprised how big a response you would get. So for just a few thousand you could have your movie made including a promising DP grad from one of the great film schools the US has or other strong cinematic countries. Heck if I was not working I would even entertain an offer like that. In the end this would save you a ton of money. Some eager to build a reel DP's may even be willing to pay all their own way just to build a reel. In the end this would just give you a chance to put the money on the screen and make a better film.

I am not saying don't make your film or don't follow your dream so please don't misunderstand that. All I am saying is if a person is a director that does not shoot their own films what reason is there to own a camera. I have worked with many directors over the years and unless they had been DOP's in the past or were director/dp's I never met one that had owned a camera. Just because something is a good price does not make it a good deal if you do not need it and as I see it a director that does not plan to shoot really has no use for a camera.

I wish you the best of luck with your future and your films as I hope you are one of the few that make it Seung. I just feel there may be other options that would help you make your films better (I assume you did not own the 16mm camera when you shot your 16mm film.) By the way I am doing a commercial with a red camera next week and it there was a flood of people with reds interested in renting their red out for the 3 day shoot and currently there are only 50 reds in circulation. I won't even begin to mention how cheap some were offered for but I will say that even with only 50 cameras out some peoples rental prices were shockingly low. Finding a red for cheap or close to free with a DP to shoot your films will not be the hard part in fact it will not be long before you are able to find someone in this industry without a red.

So in the end all I am saying is if a person plans to be a director save your money for the film and hire one of the many great young future DP's that plan to buy a RED just to build a reel. You will find them for cheap as there are many in that boat right here on these boards. Best of luck again Seung. Please send me a PM and I will give you my e-mail address as I would genuinely like to see some of your work and honestly if when you are shooting your film if I would be available at the time I would seriosly consider DPing your film with my camera for just the cost of my flight and a place to sleep. If I could not come I know of 2 others just off the top of my head that are getting cameras and would be willing just for the experience of shooting a film in Korea.

cheer's
Daren
 
But be very careful though, I have tried getting free services as well and ultimately, the person did not turn up in the airport, after everything has worked out perfectly well prior to that.

There is a real danger in getting services from people you do not know especially for free and low cost, as I have experienced them myself. It will ultimately cost you more as all locations, crews, talents schedule has been fixed and so on.

Not to say that it will happen, but just a word of advice from someone who has experienced it. Although it did not really affect our shoot that much as the person we were getting was not as crucial as the scenario like this, when you are dealing with a person who owns the camera.
 
Totally agree Mike but if the person is of what seems like quality they have their reputation which is more important then anything else.

Heck though i have even had people that were paid well not show up for a job before.
 
Sorry rameshjai

Typing too late last night.
 
STILL CAMERA LENSES
​

This is an effort to bring still camera lens info for the non PL crowd into one place.

One rule that I think everyone should follow -- TEST every lens you consider buying (if possible) or after you buy (lenses from eBay) before using. Do not believe online reviews for lenses as that review only applies to THAT specific lens. Every single lens is unique - especially the new zooms. Please test your lenses. *see note below.

Focus breathing can be a problem with many of these lenses -- so test! If you are shooting drama and will be focusing back and forth on talent then you may want to avoid these still lenses and stick with the Red or other Cine lenses. If you have the money you should buy good PL mount Cine lenses.

If you are on a budget like most people.....

Nikon F -- Older manual focus lenses, these will work without the Berger mount. They will stop down and focus but they also have click stops. If that bugs you it can be fixed. Nikon F lenses are a good, affordable choice. Fast Nikon lenses can hard to find for sale and are more expensive compared to Canon FD. Almost any Nikon lens ever made will still fit on the latest Nikon camera therefore most of these lenses are still in use and used prices are high.

Canon FD -- Because these lenses will not fit on the EOS film or digital cameras they were quickly becoming paper weights before the various 35mm adapters and the RED allowed them to have a new life. Contrary to everything you will read online... these very affordable and easy to find lenses can be fixed so that they will stop down. And at the same time you can also have the ball bearings removed that make the click stops. A camera repair tech can do this for you - and although you can... I do not recommend doing this yourself. I had my Canon FD lenses fixed for an average of $30.00 each. They now stop down smoothly and work great with the FF gears I added from RedRock Micro. There are old and really old FD lenses. The oldest versions have a silver ring on the rear of the lens that spins to lock the lens on the camera. Some of these are good but they are old and will not have the better lens coatings of the verison without that ring. Many of the best and the fastest lenses are "L" lenses which at the time were the best quality Canon lenses made.

On the older Nikon and Canon above be careful of the older zooms as most are not as good as the primes, many have slide in & out zooming and often the focus is hard to use since few of these were internal focus.

Newer Nikon DX AND CANON EF-S -- These lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they just barely cover the S35 sensor on the Red at 4K. All are auto focus and the focus rings are very skinny. I would AVOID buying these if you are planning to shoot 4.5K RAW. The Canon EF-S and the Nikon G models do not have aperture rings so you must have the Berger mount to stop down.

Nikon AF-S -- Full frame coverage, manual & auto focus - some of these fine lenses will require the Berger mount to work properly. Proceed with caution and check these before buying as each lens can work differently for focus especially the many zoom's. Again some of the focus rings are very skinny. The G models do not have aperture rings so you must have the Berger to stop down.

Canon EF (EOS) -- Auto focus and a few manual focus zooms and primes. Very good lenses but the Berger mount is needed for most of these lenses for stopping down. You can use these without the Berger and they will focus manually but they will not stop down... so what is the point? If you are going to buy / use these try to get the highest quality "L" lenses. You will have to buy a Berger or stick with the older Nikon F or Canon FD manual lenses... that is if you cannot afford a Red or other PL mount Cine lens.

The new zooms can be very good. I have had several Nikon and my current Canon zooms are very sharp even wide open at F/2.8. The main problem you will find is that most wide zooms go soft & dark in the corners wide open. I think that you will find that is OK with the Red since that part of the lenses should not be a factor on S35mm. On the RED these lenses will have great coverage.

Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, and Vivitar -- Some are good, some are crap. You will find these off-brands in all of the mount versions listed above especially on eBay. All the new super-wide DX & EF-S zooms I tried had really bad fringing problems in the corners since they barely cover S35 they will be very disappointing to most people. Caution with the wide zooms, purchase new and TEST before buying.

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eBay: -- Many people will tell you to avoid eBay when buying cameras & lenses. I have purchased 24 Canon FD lenses from eBay over the last 3 months to use on my RedRock M2 and the RedOne when it comes. Only 2 of these were not sharp enough when tested. I think that is a reasonable risk / reward considering that I now have a full set of primes from 7.5mm to 600mm for about the cost of one PL zoom lens. Be careful however, only buy from people with good feedback (93% or higher), who have several good photos and be sure read the descriptions carefully. I have done eBay since 1999 and have competed over 400 auctions with only a few minor problems. I think that it is still the easiest way to find the older lenses. Good luck.

*NOTE: When I switched to Canon EOS last year I had to buy five yes, five 24-70mm zooms before I found one that was sharp enough. It took three 16-35mm zooms to find a good one. So do not assume that a lens, new or old, is sharp & working properly until you test it.

RedOne
Panasonic HPX500 & HVX200
Panasonic Varicam - for 5 years - just sold it.
Canon FD 7.5mm to 500mm lenses

Canon EOS 1Ds MK II
16-35mm F/2.8 L II
24-70mm F/2.8L
70-200mm F/2.8L
300mm F/2.8L
500mm F/4.5L
 
Thanks Enzo, I find your post very helpful. When your break it down like that, it is much easier to understand other posts discussing individuals lenses. I really appreciate it! :usd:
 
Enzo, thanks for the writeup. One thing, though... The Nikon "G" lenses should work on RED. They don't cover full-frame 35mm STILL photography, but they should cover 35mm and S35mm CINEMA photography. I would say that "G" lenses will be some of the primary lenses us low-budget folks will be using.
 
Enzo--

"Newer Nikon G -- These AF-S DX lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they WILL NOT COVER the S35 sensor on the Red. All are auto focus, I think a few do not even have a focus ring and the focus rings are very skinny. The "G" is usually just after the f/# like f/2.8G I would AVOIC THESE."

The only G lens I own I bought for my Nikon D2X, because the DX format left me uncovered on the wide end of my Nikkor lens system. It's the Nikkor AF 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF AF-S and it DOES have a focus ring and allows for manual focus, although it is, as you say, quite skinny. What it does NOT have is an aperature ring.

But not to worry. Even though one of these G series lenses will be difficult, if not impossible, to use on the RED Nikon mount, I believe that Erik of Birger Engineering has stated that the G series WILL be functional through the entire aperature range with the Birger Nikon Mount.

Also note in the "Relevant Red Formats" section of Brook Willard's sticky "Red One FAQ" that the Nikkor DX format lenses will, indeed, cover the 4k Mysterium format, if not the 4.5k Mysterium format (although it is beginning to look unlikely that all but the extremely hard-core will be using 4.5k framing, which currently appears will only be used for recording the uncompressed RAW format with the $6,500 RAW module) and the lesser 2k format. It IS possible that the corners of the DX format lenses may go a bit soft and dark for 4.5k and 4k framing, since those lenses do not afford the luxury of using only the "sweet spot" of standard 35mm still lenses. But, since we have yet to see any tests with Nikkor DX lenses, let's not jump to conclusions.

EDIT: Oops! Beat me to it, Jaime.
 
You are most welcome. When I shot in Thailand a few years ago I found the crew there to be very good and able to quickly adapt to my Panasonic Varicam even though they had never shot with one before. The AC and everyone on the crew were as good as any I have used anywhere. I'm sure that no matter what lens system you decide on your local crew folks will quickly adapt and do great.

I would be happy to help you in Korea or anywhere in Asia....anytime.
 
I think you are correct that the "G" lenses may just barely cover the RED at 4k but I'm saying that for the same money you can get other options that will cover 4.5K and also be sharp in the corners with room to spare. On the RED the full frame lenses will give some room in the corners. With the "G" and the Canon APS-C lenses you will not have that luxury.

I had a 12-24mm and it was pretty good in the corners on a D2X and I even tried it on a Kodak SLR/n full frame camera to see how much I could cheat (couldn't as it crapped out at around 17.5mm) and the 17-35mm was much better. I would not recommend any "G" or Canon APS-C lenses for the RED because I think in the long run you will be disappointed.

Nikon's decision to not make a full-frame camera is why I switched to Canon last year - this after shooting Nikon for over 30 years! I LOVE my Canon 16-35mm and my 14mm on my 1Ds MK II. That is 4mm wider than the 12-24. And I tried the all off-brand 10 and 11mm zooms and they were crap.

I would stick with the full frame coverage options and if one's budget it that tight I still think that the Nikon, Canon FD's or even the off-brand lenses (as long as they are tested) are the cheapest way to go and end up with sharp images.

After all that is the point in the end and at 4K you will see every problem.

This FAQ post by Brook shows the formats and coverage really well.
It is way down at the bottom:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487


Good shooting.
 
Enzo said:
I think you are correct that the "G" lenses may just barely cover the RED at 4k but I'm saying that for the same money you can get other options that will cover 4.5K and also be sharp in the corners with room to spare. On the RED the full frame lenses will give some room in the corners.
Click to expand...

Are you really considering shooting with 4.5k framing, along with the expense of the $6,500 RAW module and a RAID solution that can handle that firehose-like stream of data, not to mention the storage of that data?

Besides, you won't find any other rectilinear Nikkor optics that are 12mm wide (18mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k), nor will you find any full-frame zooms below 17mm wide (24mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k). The widest you'll find is the 14mm
prime, which is still shy of the 20mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k and relatively expensive @ $1,240 at B&H new vs. the 12-24mm zoom, which is $900 at B&H new), so I don't see any savings in cost and reduced flexibility, to boot.

Enzo said:
I would not recommend any "G" lenses for the RED because I think in the long run you will be disappointed. Same goes for the Canon APS-C lenses although they should have a little more coverage since they are covering a slightly larger sensor than Nikon.
Click to expand...

I believe that the opposite is true. Don't the Canon APS-C lenses have a 1.6x magnification factor over a full-frame 35mm still frame, while the Nikon DX format lenses have a 1.5x magnification factor over a full-frame 35mm still frame, meaning that the Nikkor DX line has slightly MORE coverage than the Canon APS-C line, not less, right?

Enzo said:
Nikon's decision to not make a full-frame camera is why I switched to Canon last year - this after shooting Nikon for over 30 years!
Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative, but I guess your move over to Canon was a little premature, as the full-frame Nikon D3 is expected to be released in November, with a higher MP full-frame flagship model expected next year.

While I DO want coverage at the wide end, I suspect shots that will use this wide end will be fleeting, as they will tend to be shorter duration establishing shots, or they will be moving in a way that will hide critical sharpness issues, such as with aerials and steadicam shots.

Enzo said:
This FAQ post by Brook shows the formats and coverage really well.
It is way down at the bottom...
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the illustration in the FAQ I cited in my previous post.
 
Are you really considering shooting with 4.5k framing, along with the expense of the $6,500 RAW module and a RAID solution that can handle that firehose-like stream of data, not to mention the storage of that data?

Not at the moment but who knows what will I will need to shoot next year? Or the year after? I'm planning and recommending for the long run, not just for the current moment.

Besides, you won't find any other rectilinear Nikkor optics that are 12mm wide (18mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k), nor will you find any full-frame zooms below 17mm wide (24mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k). The widest you'll find is the 14mm prime, which is still shy of the 20mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k and relatively expensive @ $1,240 at B&H new vs. the 12-24mm zoom, which is $900 at B&H new), so I don't see any savings in cost and reduced flexibility, to boot.

I liked my 12-24mm so if the 12mm covers the 4K frame I may just have to get a Nikon mount in addition to the Canon FD as that would be great and give me 2mm more than my 14mm. I also have a Kinoptik 9.8mm PL that I'm hoping will cover 4K but I'm afraid that it will not as it just barely covered the frame on my old Arri 2C. Or maybe I'll try this out: Canon Zoom Super Wide Angle EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Autofocus Lens - slow but cheap at under $700.00.

I believe that the opposite is true.
Yes. I already corrected that dumb mistake.

Not to be argumentative, but I guess your move over to Canon was a little premature, as the full-frame Nikon D3 is expected to be released in November, with a higher MP full-frame flagship model expected next year.

Well.... I have a 1Ds MK III on order which is 21.1 MP vs. the D3 at 12.1. My clients are always demanding more MP - not that you need them and I think 16MP was enough - but they want 30-39 MP because they think that bigger is better and it is available. I have no regrets switching to Canon except there are way too many buttons on the cameras. The D2X was easier to use.

While I DO want coverage at the wide end, I suspect shots that will use this wide end will be fleeting, as they will tend to be shorter duration establishing shots, or they will be moving in a way that will hide critical sharpness issues, such as with aerials and steadicam shots.

Perhaps. Just remember that I'm trying to help those who are not as familiar with all the various lens options and these recommends are a bit on the conservative side because I do not know what they will be shooting and they may want to shoot 4.5K RAW and would be upset that someone told them to get lenses that may not have enough coverage or be limiting in some way that we have not yet discovered.
 
Enzo said:
...
I have no regrets switching to Canon except there are way too many buttons on the cameras. The D2X was easier to use.
...
Click to expand...

That's ironic, I shoot Canon because I find the EOS system more intuitive and easier to use than any Nikon I've ever tried. :)

To each his own, right?
 
Enzo said:
STILL CAMERA LENSES
​

Newer Nikon G -- These AF-S DX lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they WILL NOT COVER the S35 sensor on the Red.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I believe you are incorrect, the Red sensor is almost the same size as a DX sensor so they will cover without problems.

Stephen
 
I corrected that mistake, thanks. I think you will still find that if you shoot wide open with the super-wide zoom lenses you may get some softness in the corners on the RED. And all the off-brand versions I tried had terrible color fringing.

This is really a post for newbies... So I guess my point is that IF you do not already own these lenses and are trying to figure out what to purchase for the RED that most people would be better off with full frame lenses for most uses. If they cannot afford Cine PL lenses.
 
Enzo said:
...I guess my point is that IF you do not already own these lenses and are trying to figure out what to purchase for the RED that most people would be better off with full frame lenses for most uses. If they cannot afford Cine PL lenses.
Click to expand...

That sounds about right to me.

But I still have some lingering doubts about whether my Nikkor 35-70mm and 80-200mm full-frame zooms, with their push-pull focal length adjustment designs, will be a problem once they are geared up with the Birger Nikon Mount and whether a tilt-up or -down of the tripod head will cause the gearing to slip apart, should the lens barrel creep one way or the other.
 
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