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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Sony or RED...no brainer. No Brainer.

Michael Jarvis

Michael Jarvis

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Lots of traffic on this topic. Seems pretty clear. A company releases a camera with slightly better paper specs. Took them years. Their next attempt will probably take years after this one. They make 100s of different types of products.

RED has one focus. One driving goal: getting tomorrows technology in my hands today. I am sure RED will tip their hat to Sony when they fly by a few months from now let them know it they did good. Then Sony will go back to following the lead RED sets forth for the entire industry. RED are pioneers in technology.

I will always bet on the visionaries.
 
While I am pretty much in with you on that, not all visionaries succeed.
RED has three very strong things going for it, though.

Team
Liquidity
Market smartness

But I was dreaming with Kinetta and Dalsa before RED...
 
Not to diminish Red's considerable contributions, but to say that Sony is not visionary is to ignore the accomplishments which made them the standard of the industry. Their 3/4" decks put news film in the dust bin of history and BetaCam was the first shot across the bow of film for television production.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Michael Jarvis said:
Lots of traffic on this topic. Seems pretty clear. A company releases a camera with slightly better paper specs. Took them years. Their next attempt will probably take years after this one. They make 100s of different types of products.
Click to expand...

This is the exact opposite of reality. The big thing now is that the giants (Canon, Sony, and presumably Panasonic) have been awakened. They are going to steam roll out products that are 4k, 6k, 8k+ in months, not the years in which it took RED. You know how RED says, 'the other guys make you buy new cameras every year'? That's true, so imagine those incremental increases every quarter in a new camera... that's what's going to happen but with 4k, 6k, 8k, etc. You can't put the Genie back in the bottle.
 
Good thing we know what is next. :-)

Jim
 
Mike I think this ignoring history. Those companies have been known for feature creep. Red pushed them and only now they catch up. But that's all. No innovation, just a combination of ARRI Alexia and EPIC features.. The global shutter is nice, but that's it.

So they have caught up, but I have not yet seen them lead.

Jay
 
If the Dragon sensor can deliver monochrome level images in color with expanded dynamic range and dare I say a global shutter, Epic will remain my go to camera for a very long time.
The workflows around the camera are getting better and better every day, and I for one don't have a huge problem with the fan noise. There is room for improvement in everything but just take a minute and look where RED has taken us. As computer processors get faster, proxy modules will become less relevant in my eye. Working with RAW in real time is the future.
 
I have to question "caught up". 5K is 60+% greater resolution than 4K. Compressed RAW is still a huge advantage. And how many accessories from an F23, F35 or F65 are useful on the newly announced models? Are the sensors in any Sony camera ever made upgradable?

Just asking.

Jim

Jay A. Kelley said:
Mike I think this ignoring history. Those companies have been known for feature creep. Red pushed them and only now they catch up. But that's all. No innovation, just a combination of ARRI Alexia and EPIC features.. The global shutter is nice, but that's it.

So they have caught up, but I have not yet seen them lead.

Jay
Click to expand...
 
Please Jim,
is 17-50mm Zoom still available?

thank You
 
Technology is only half the picture. The other half is purely art. I consider cinematography an art form that takes time to understand and learn. People can pixel peep until the cows come home but I'd much rather watch an amazing film shot on a cell phone that a terrible film shot at 8K. I also consider understanding the limitations of technology as being a job of a cinematographer. Of course you can make footage from a GH2 look as good as Alexa or RED, it it would be because of the combination of understanding lighting, composition, and finally the boundaries of what is capable with the technology available today.

So yes Sony has indeed introduced some new cameras. It definitely has some nice features but to jump ship for me makes no sense. I've had my RED for a year and I have been shooting on a regular bases. With each shoot I learn what it's capable of. I can with confidence go into any shooting situation now and get the shot I know I can get. It's like putting on your trusted soccer cleats versus a new pair. Thats what make your footage sing. It's rare to be opening a box and expect to get the best out of it. Thats why I never trust these online test videos that were conducted 10 minutes after talking it out of the box. I hope to upgrade to Epic then Dragon one day because not only will it be like having a new camera..... it's also going to feel like my old one, and I love that feeling.
 
Michael Jarvis said:
A company releases a camera with slightly better paper specs.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... Looking at the "paper specs", I'm not sure what qualifies as "better", slightly or otherwise. The camera is bigger, requires add-on modules for various interfaces, just as RED's DSMC models do... It does not have the ability to change lens mounts. It does not have the ability to upgrade sensors or internal components the way RED has enabled. It shoots 4K. If you want to shoot higher than 4K, you have to us the bigger, more expensive flagship model that's already been out for a while, the F65. If you want to record RAW you have to use an external recorder.

The only advantage I see the camera having is the ability to record more common compressed codecs onboard.... It's advantageous to some, but that advantage is starting to fade as computers become more powerful and native support for R3D RAW continues to improve. These Sony cameras are going to push that advantage and they already have a huge stake in broadcast TV, ENG and several other markets. These cameras are going to be HUGE. What I find curious is that their UltraHD 2/3" (or similar sized) broadcast camera is still lurking in the shadows. Perhaps they will debut it at NAB... I have yet to see a prototype or anything specific, but I know it exists and is coming soon. A lot of people are talking about how wonderful and simple the "ALEXA style" menu system is. BFD.. So they ripped off ARRI and put the menu screen on the side? So what? EPIC menus are stupid-easy too, but I digress...

Anyway, the one thing I take away from all this is that us end users and consumers are on the winning end of this either way. Competition is good and it was only a matter of time before all the other camera companies jumped in with 4K offerings of their own at various price points. In a few months we'll have CES 2013 and there is going to be a slew of new UltraHD (quad-HD / 4K / 3840X2160) cameras, displays, projectors, players, etc.. We all benefit here. And while these new Sony cameras are definitely not my cup of tea (I already have EPICs, thank you), I know that I will be seeing plenty of them, working with them, using footage from them. Can't wait.

I also consider Sony to be a visionary company. Most of their products are anything but visionary, but every now and then they deliver something special. These cameras are a reaction, as Jim has said, but I would guess that Sony is just getting warmed up... What's going to be their weakness is not their products, but their speed at which they develop and adapt and their sales model.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Hmmm... Looking at the "paper specs", I'm not sure what qualifies as "better", slightly or otherwise. The camera is bigger, requires add-on modules for various interfaces, just as RED's DSMC models do... It does not have the ability to change lens mounts. It does not have the ability to upgrade sensors or internal components the way RED has enabled. It shoots 4K. If you want to shoot higher than 4K, you have to us the bigger, more expensive flagship model that's already been out for a while, the F65. If you want to record RAW you have to use an external recorder.
Click to expand...

Yup, that pretty much sums up the differences. And let's not forget that EPIC shoots 5K at 120fps, and HDRX, and compressed RAW with a wide range of compression options and frame sizes.

M
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It does not have the ability to change lens mounts.
Click to expand...

Both the F5 and F55 have interchangeable lens mounts (just like the F3), the cameras use Sony's positive-locking FZ mount, which has an 18mm flange depth, and already has a dozen different lens mounts that can be used with it.
 
Michael Jarvis said:
Lots of traffic on this topic. Seems pretty clear. A company releases a camera with slightly better paper specs. Took them years. Their next attempt will probably take years after this one. They make 100s of different types of products.
Click to expand...

Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, and Audi all make great cars in the $100,000 price range. I don't see any of them going out of business anytime soon. Each competes with the others, offers differences in features and performances, and no one model can satisfy all markets and all users.

I think cameras are like that, too. There's a market for a $500 GoPro, there's a market for a $2000 JVC pseudo-4K camera, there's a market for an $8000 Sony 4K, there's a market for a $10,000 Scarlet 4K, there's a market for a Canon $20,000 4K, there's a market for a Red $35,000 4K, and a market for people who want to spend $60,000+ for Sony's F65. I don't see any of this as a problem -- more choices are good.

You might as well tell an artist, "you can only use this brand of oil pants or this kind of brushes." Don't forget that a decade ago, DPs also had a dozen different types of film emulsions and at least 7 or 8 different film cameras, all of which had their fans and detractors. Liking one doesn't mean you'll never use the other, or that one can do everything for everybody 100% of the time.
 
I think everyone got nervous cause as professionals we all have a huge investment tied up in our gear. No one want their equipment to be old news, but I knew a guy a couple years ago that was a very successful DP for the medical/pharmaceutical industry that did internal videos for all the big companies, on dvx100. His lighting was great, his composition was great, and the client was very happy with his product. This was 2010. I am not sure what he shoots now, but it didn't matter what camera he had. He was a good shooter. Period.

We shouldn't forget that's what we are selling. Not the camera.


(Says the guy with all his gear in his signature.....)
 
Timur Civan said:
I think everyone got nervous cause as professionals we all have a huge investment tied up in our gear. No one want their equipment to be old news, but I knew a guy a couple years ago that was a very successful DP for the medical/pharmaceutical industry that did internal videos for all the big companies, on dvx100. His lighting was great, his composition was great, and the client was very happy with his product. This was 2010. I am not sure what he shoots now, but it didn't matter what camera he had. He was a good shooter. Period.

We shouldn't forget that's what we are selling. Not the camera.


(Says the guy with all his gear in his signature.....)
Click to expand...


Timur, OMG, change your EVF positioning or rig setup. I have a neck injury that's been killing me for 3 years now, (constant headaches plus neck pain), and every time I see you in your avatar/pic, it makes me squeamish. You WILL get neck issues if you're working in an uncomfortable position. It's your body's way of telling you you're hurting it.

did I say please?

PLEASE!
 
I really don't see what the fuss is all about regarding the new F55 & F5. The Epic is higher resolution than the F55, runs faster, has Hdrx, shoots raw internally, and is cheaper already, and TRULY modular. The F55/F5 cannot run without a battery on the back, cannot shoot raw without an additional module on the back and another $10K or so and adding up to the size and weight. A RED brain, with a side handle, and SSD on the other side, can shoot full res in raw, you can add modules if you need more battery power, more connections etc.. Same thing for F5 vs Scarlet. Scarlet seems to be way cheaper than the F5 already. Lowering the prices is never a bad idea, however I believe that RED should attract customers by making what's good even better, and apart from that no one expects to go and buy a Ferrari with 10 grand in his pocket. Anyway, everyone is well aware that the majority of Red customers are not delivering in 4K. However everyone is bound to shoot and post process in 4K or 5K, because of the form factor issues. Shooting in 2K/HD using the full sensor is faster, easier to handle and perhaps gives benfit of the higher frames available in lower resolutions. Having an Epic pulling 300fps in 2K, downsampled from 4K or 5K instead of the current cropped method, produces a damn sharp 2K image, a great FOV. And if 4 or 5K is too much too handle or not required, its easier to shoot in lower res. Same thing goes for Scarlet of course. Red can at least upgrade the Scarlet's capabilites in par to the old and obsolite Red One (no market to protect there), and perhaps Hdrx in 4K as promised a year ago. Features like these tagged with a nice price is literally like showing the finger to the Sony announcement.
 
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