New Sony F3 Footage

[Carl Weston]

F**K TH af100 and f3, they are trying to take us backwards.

This is how threads get locked... totally unnecessary :cuss::beatdeadhorse5:

 

[David Rasberry]

I was the DOP with Jason Wingrove and we shot the "Compulsion" short at a sea pool here in Sydney OZ. We only recorded to the internal SxS cards. Lenses were a set of older Arri Superspeeds with a single 40mm ultraprime and a 135mm zeiss standard. Filtration was a mixture of the internal ND and some external ND filters. Lens choice was deliberate as we thought the superspeeds were a more appropriate choice for a camera of this value.It was shot Doco style with no lights with only a couple of flexfills used on the girl talking to camera.

Sony has a set of three f2 primes coming with EX mount at 35,50 and 85mm focal lengths and later on a f2.8 zoom. The camera should be able to control the inbuilt lens motors. If these can be built cheaply and well to take advantage of the electronics to remove colour aberrations then Sony is on a winner.The ability to use lightweight, easy to use, cheap but high performance glass will give the system a real leg up.

I am a RED One owner and I don't believe the F3 will stackup against the Red One and certainly not the Epic but this camera is not designed as a Digital Cinema camera. This camera is a video camera with a 35mm sensor. Anyone who has used an EX1 or EX3 can use this machine. The XDCam codec while thin is better than it should be and most importantly seamlessly fits into a TV/video post path where colour grading is not usually aggressive. This camera is super lightweight, easy to use and to post. This is what it does best. Weddings, corporates, low end TVCs and television programmes will love it.

Would I shoot a well budgeted TVC or a feature film probably not but the camera creates a new niche in videography for large sensor photography.

Best description of F3' s market niche yet. A practical low end alternative to smaller chip video cameras.

 

[Michael Hastings]

The funny thing about all these Cameras coming two big big humongous limitations, ability to POINT AND SHOOT, and RESOLUTION. We can argue on here for hours about all these new cameras, formats, form factors etc. But every cinematographer I have worked with that uses the Red loves it for its ability to work like a film camera, ie. measure the light, compose and shoot. You don't have to worry about a host of image issues plaguing all those other psuedo-video cameras or second guess yourself if you captured enough resolution.

F3 and others aren't "pseudo-video" cameras, they are video cameras (see excellent explanation below), designed to bring s35 DOF/sensitivity to that market, with a little overlap with cine. The market for true film camera style shooting is small and those projects where producers, crew and investors are making any real money is even smaller - and can rent whatever camera they want at little cost difference.

RED1 and to an extent even Epic Scarlet are ALL about resolution/compressed raw (not inconsequential) but most video people see them as a step backward in features, usabiity, ergonomics. Resolution/raw is more important to many (including myself) and there's nothing wrong with that, but I deal with these other kinds of customers every day and to ignore their reality is kind of silly.

snip

I am a RED One owner and I don't believe the F3 will stackup against the Red One and certainly not the Epic but this camera is not designed as a Digital Cinema camera. This camera is a video camera with a 35mm sensor. Anyone who has used an EX1 or EX3 can use this machine. The XDCam codec while thin is better than it should be and most importantly seamlessly fits into a TV/video post path where colour grading is not usually aggressive. This camera is super lightweight, easy to use and to post. This is what it does best. Weddings, corporates, low end TVCs and television programmes will love it.

Would I shoot a well budgeted TVC or a feature film probably not but the camera creates a new niche in videography for large sensor photography.

 

[Carl Weston]

@Tom.

That sounds very rightish.

@ Carl
Hm. I can interpret your point, and I think it would be a good idea with a unfiddleable prores module on the Epic to rise the baseline of RED post.

Apple's Prores should be first module for the red1/epic/scarlet because the license is free to camera manufacturers...not h.264.

 

[shashbugu]

F3 and others aren't "pseudo-video" cameras, they are video cameras (see excellent explanation below), designed to bring s35 DOF/sensitivity to that market, with a little overlap with cine. The market for true film camera style shooting is small and those projects where producers, crew and investors are making any real money is even smaller - and can rent whatever camera they want at little cost difference.

RED1 and to an extent even Epic Scarlet are ALL about resolution/compressed raw (not inconsequential) but most video people see them as a step backward in features, usabiity, ergonomics. Resolution/raw is more important to many (including myself) and there's nothing wrong with that, but I deal with these other kinds of customers every day and to ignore their reality is kind of silly.

I deal with the same exact customers who just want me to shoot on a DSLR or EX3 and be done with because thats whats popular. But for my own personal reasons (lack of DSLR usage knowledge and comparable rental package prices) I just promise the results.

Michael, you and I know the Red1 was built for filmmakers. Its open ended, very forward thinking. It does what it was built to do very well that is making exceptional picture quality films. The New RED1-mx is phenomenal at this, the Epic-X will Really Revolutionize the industry. These are all cameras for under $60,000. The Epic-x design and form factor is the future of filmmaking. I cant imagine how any serious minded independent film investor, producer or camera-man will opt out for anything less ( i meet many people on daily basis that own DSLR's and argue against my POV) but the truth is in the pudding, at this past AFM, the acquisition ratio of RED originated films against others was like 10:1. Distributers know the difference and its opened does for more markets internationally.

I mean obviously one can shoot on what works for them, but from a serious investment standpoint the Epic-x is the way to go even if it cost twice the price of an F3.

Video people are video people they need video cameras that out put an immediate image. Filmmakers need cameras that give them the creative freedom to design their own images.

I have always been a strong proponent of Prores proxies on the Red1, this will I assume be implemented as a module on the Epic-X. Not that I care if its there or not it will just reduce the workflow worries of the video guys.

 

[shashbugu]

This is how threads get locked... totally unnecessary :cuss::beatdeadhorse5:

Again I apologize. I meant to say the picture quality on the f3 is not worth the admission price.

 

[Jim Retar]

Again I apologize. I meant to say the picture quality on the f3 is not worth the admission price.

Well, considering it will probably hit the streets at around $13k, I think the picture quality is looking damn good for the money. It is a bit unfair comparing it to a RED as you cannot shoot RED for anything less than $30k (which would be a very, very basic setup).

RED is better than the F3, just like the F3 is better than the 7D etc etc.

A thing to note about the pricing... it does come with the high end "Prime Support" service. For some of us, that shoot outside the USA, this is a big plus point.

I do not even know what kind of support RED offer. The info is not readily available on their site.... I have heard their trouble shooting and general support is great... but what happens if my EVF malfunctions while I am shooting in, say, India?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The Epic-x design and form factor is the future of filmmaking.

With a few tweeks and mods. Starting from the handle.

Video people are video people they need video cameras that out put an immediate image. Filmmakers need cameras that give them the creative freedom to design their own images.

Mostly agree with a few exceptions:

- Filmmakers aren't the only ones wanting to design images after shooting
- A lot of DP's do the most of the visual design on set and for what their work needs or they allow afterwards - Prores from external recorders in sufficient.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Red Alert

Red Alert

Is it just me, or has the published F3 footage got some real colorimetry issues with the colour red?

Graeme

Graeme,

Yes we noticed these colour issues when we were doing our tests. This was pointed out to the Sony Rep. and he said this was a preproduction model and the production camera will address this. There were a couple other "issues" with the camera but we all know how the bugs like to pop up. These tests were partly to see if anymore bugs needed squashing.

 

[Joe G.]

Since this thread talks about "Sony colors" which I thought looked pretty good... let's talk about "Red colors" and specifically the two images below. These are both from the latest Red video of Ted S. in Vietnam, and I believe they exhibit the typical red look. They were done in a controlled studio environment, although one of the lights died in the middle, and so both lighting conditions are represented. I think he looks better in the darker lighting, personally.

What bugs me is that the colors seem to have too much green, and/or are too variable as conditions change slightly (from just head turns).

I would like a detailed response from someone at Red (Graeme?) about what exactly makes the Red color space look this way.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

What bugs me is that the colors seem to have too much green, and/or are too variable as conditions change slightly (from just head turns).

Tonaci was shooting using the LED Cool Lights which are known to give off a slight green tint.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

http://www.nattress.com/A010_C004_0429H9_001.jpg

I find LED lights work fine for me. As with all light sources, for colorimetric accuracy a good white balance is necessary. You'll notice that my youngest has more my skin type, whereas the eldest has a little more olive complexion. If the camera were not sensitive enough to light and colour, that differentiation would be lost.

Graeme

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Yeah, I know Tonaci was editing this on the run on his Macbook Pro and the tint could probably have been removed if he had more time.

Here is a post someone made showing the un CCd image using LEDs and the CCd version: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=566652#post566652

 

[Carl Weston]

I think 1080 uncompressed RGB looks as good on the big screen as anything shot with the red..the F3 with a rented cinedeck extreme 2.0 with the new uncompressed option makes the F3 a red competitor.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Whenever we've compared 1080p to 4k (or more) on the big screen, the detail and improved MTF of the RED cameras has always been immediately obvious and superior. Even downsampled RED sees the benefit.

The F3 will be a great camera for sure, but the strong aliasing on Bloom's jacket on his test movie will no doubt be an issue. Moire is a known F35 issue, so I'm not surprised. What did flummox me is the very blue reds in the UK demo footage. We all know what the red of a London Bus looks like, and it's not magenta.... I'm guessing that's a teething issue though as the producers noted that white balance was flaky on their demo camera.

Graeme

 

[Carl Weston]

Whenever we've compared 1080p to 4k (or more) on the big screen, the detail and improved MTF of the RED cameras has always been immediately obvious and superior. Even downsampled RED sees the benefit.

The F3 will be a great camera for sure, but the strong aliasing on Bloom's jacket on his test movie will no doubt be an issue. Moire is a known F35 issue, so I'm not surprised. What did flummox me is the very blue reds in the UK demo footage. We all know what the red of a London Bus looks like, and it's not magenta.... I'm guessing that's a teething issue though as the producers noted that white balance was flaky on their demo camera.

Graeme

yeah it's there ...but its only obvious to pixel peepers and chart testers...I didn't seen any aliasing watching predators shot with the Genesis.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Very cute kids by the way Graeme! I don't think there's anybody in the business who really feels that, right now, there's anything out there that surpasses the RED in terms of sheer muscle, meaning, resolution, DR, and flexibility of its RAW, 12 bit codec. That said, a great many users want exactly the opposite of big, bulky muscle, they want a thinner, slimmer, finished product, even if its deficiencies are obvious at times. Ironically, while the RED is a digital cinema camera, it is cameras like the Sony that offer the predictability of a known stock, their colorimetry, exposure and DR values behave in such predictable ways that many experienced users know what their images will look like before they even check them. And while you can make RED look like any number of pre-formulated looks or stocks, it takes work to get there, and manipulating RAW is something that a great many try to stay away from. Also, you do get auto exposure and auto focus with those "pseudo cameras" which is something invaluable for many, and if you've shot with those cameras, you'd have to agree that their auto exposure and auto focus systems are very, very sophisticated and very, very accurate, and in fact, are a great help and not a hindrance to the creative process. Which is why I'm assuming Epic will have auto focus, and why it will be used as much for motion as it will for stills.

 

[Joe G.]

Well Graham, blaming the lights can account for the first part of my observation, but it does not address the second.

Watch the full Vietnam footage of Ted S., and see how the color in his face seems to shift from reddish to greenish whenever he turns his head. This is the issue that worries me.

I also see something odd about the motion characteristics, but this could be the way it was shot. It just looks sort of odd all around and not cinematic.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

yeah it's there ...but its only obvious to pixel peepers and chart testers...I didn't seen any aliasing watching predators shot with the Genesis.

I don't know what Panavision have changed on the Genesis over the F35, but there was some pretty visible moire in the BBC Series Doctor Who shot on F35 (on 1080 broadcast).

Graeme

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Well Graham, blaming the lights can account for the first part of my observation, but it does not address the second.

Watch the full Vietnam footage of Ted S., and see how the color in his face seems to shift from reddish to greenish whenever he turns his head. This is the issue that worries me.

I also see something odd about the motion characteristics, but this could be the way it was shot. It just looks sort of odd all around and not cinematic.

Hard for me to know, not being there, but I've tested LED lights extensively with my children, and I've not seen that kind of issue. All I can show is that under my tests with such lighting, skin tone is spot on and accurate.

Graeme