New project...

[Eric Lange]

Just was addressing your implied meaning that all he had to do was want to start a lens company and that you seemingly discounted all that starting a company from the ground up means. Was just trying to suggest to you that there are lots of things involved other than the desire to do something. Karim is on the bottom side of the world so is probably sleeping now. I'm sure he'll chime in when he gets back on the boards.




I recently sold some oil royalties to feed my tech-cookie monster. Was going to use the proceeds to shoot a little dialog driven movie I've written. Then an investment opportunity arose that could someday provide the funds to do that epic movie I mentioned in another post.

My motto is "Be prepared to pivot!"




Yeah, wasn't suggesting you were a movie-maker, but as mentioned in first paragraph you give the impression that anyone can do things like start a lens company with sheer willpower. '-)

And as for your continuing to hold out for the Dr. No archival cave as Jim's (et al) project ... '-)

OBTW, please be careful of your tongues around hammers... that could be worse than a paper cut on the tongue.

Yes Tongs... not tongues...

Yup, about the Dr. No caves... They already exist. I don't know if you watched MR ROBOT (amazing amazing amazing production) (OMG...) (so unbelievably good, its scary)... They show some of the infra structure for data that MUST never be lost, but there are special data "warehouses" in locations that can indeed survive nuclear Armageddon... all around the world... There IS data that absolutely cannot be lost. There are different strategies for this in existing server/data warehouse space and with partnership with BANK level of security you can work stuff out. That's what the Getty trust/GCI did eventually... I created the first soft copy digital capture there and then after that a lot of people were using (soft copy) digital documentation systems. I made recommendations before I left for the U.K. (in terms of data management and keeping soft copy archives) that were ignored lol... But when they started loosing serious amounts of data they eventually "Got with it" and bootstrapped their digital archives with the financial/bank/trust archives. I think the main problem with standard bank archiving is that it can be slow or laborious and it's a case of bootstrapping/ buying space in much faster mega servers... (I guess for "something like "new Project") and having structured back ups, and playing "Swapsies" with remote and redundant locations. (Yup, get a glimpse of some of that in the plot/series of Silicon Valley ('TV" show) too (lol)).

So again totally doable and folks need to realize there are long term costs associated with keeping your digital "Footage" or digital whatever... So it may be that Jim (Group) have devised an unbelievably stable version of optical/removable media of some kind... (pure guess there) Something that you COULD throw in a draw for 200 years? And still read... (assuming archived well designed readers .. or not) The Giant network of servers all around the word works too... Almost a sort of "holographic redundancy"...


Yup I'm not a "movie maker" but a not insubstantial fraction of the tech we have developed IS relevant to cinematic applications... But having grown up in the film industry it's not all a bowl of cherries, and we would be wiser to develop complete systems that operate in other sectors before courting the "Film business"... Frankly its more of a life style thing as when you deploy any equipment and systems to rental houses or film productions you need to be available 24/7 and be able to go to any corner of the planet at the drop of a hat... That's exciting if you are a unmarried "Angelino" but if you have a family and other concerns, not many marriages actually survive the film industry for that reason. So only when we have other partners, which we already do, I can deploy tech that's NOT going to derail my life from the demands of a typical film production (basically build a different division or partner with a company that can handle those things/act as a buffer further down the road). Don't want to get sucked down the rabbit hole .

 

[Elsie N]

Yes Tongs... not tongues...

Yup, about the Dr. No caves... They already exist. I don't know if you watched MR ROBOT (amazing amazing amazing production) (OMG...) (so unbelievably good, its scary)... They show some of the infra structure for data that MUST never be lost, but there are special data "warehouses" in locations that can indeed survive nuclear Armageddon... all around the world... There IS data that absolutely cannot be lost. There are different strategies for this in existing server/data warehouse space and with partnership with BANK level of security you can work stuff out. That's what the Getty trust/GCI did eventually... I created the first soft copy digital capture there and then after that a lot of people were using (soft copy) digital documentation systems. I made recommendations before I left for the U.K. (in terms of data management and keeping soft copy archives) that were ignored lol... But when they started loosing serious amounts of data they eventually "Got with it" and bootstrapped their digital archives with the financial/bank/trust archives. I think the main problem with standard bank archiving is that it can be slow or laborious and it's a case of bootstrapping/ buying space in much faster mega servers... (I guess for "something like "new Project") and having structured back ups, and playing "Swapsies" with remote and redundant locations. (Yup, get a glimpse of some of that in the plot/series of Silicon Valley ('TV" show) too (lol)).

So again totally doable and folks need to realize there are long term costs associated with keeping your digital "Footage" or digital whatever... So it may be that Jim (Group) have devised an unbelievably stable version of optical/removable media of some kind... (pure guess there) Something that you COULD throw in a draw for 200 years? And still read... (assuming archived well designed readers .. or not) The Giant network of servers all around the word works too... Almost a sort of "holographic redundancy"...


Yup I'm not a "movie maker" but a not insubstantial fraction of the tech we have developed IS relevant to cinematic applications... But having grown up in the film industry it's not all a bowl of cherries, and we would be wiser to develop complete systems that operate in other sectors before courting the "Film business"... Frankly its more of a life style thing as when you deploy any equipment and systems to rental houses or film productions you need to be available 24/7 and be able to go to any corner of the planet at the drop of a hat... That's exciting if you are a unmarried "Angelino" but if you have a family and other concerns, not many marriages actually survive the film industry for that reason. So only when we have other partners, which we already do, I can deploy tech that's NOT going to derail my life from the demands of a typical film production (basically build a different division or partner with a company that can handle those things/act as a buffer further down the road). Don't want to get sucked down the rabbit hole .

An impressive body of work... thank you for your service. (seriously)

 

[Matt Bai]

Good questions, Eric. For me, light field capture is the next step. I love film, but you can't have light field film cameras. Why do I love this concept so much? Because it makes fast AF redundant. You do need some accuracy with light field cameras, but you don't need too much, and you don't need too much speed either. Sony's A9 is amazing, but less so when you consider the flexibility of light field.

And I have a dream to start a lens manufacturing company. There's an untapped market that nobody has targeted - in fact I told Lomography about it last year, and I got no reply. It would be perfect for them. One idea which I also passed to them, and which I am happy to share here, was to make some good Leica M mount anamorphic primes to go with an M mount 4-perf 35mm camera. Apertures of f/4 or even f/5.6 would be fine if it meant decent quality results.

And speaking of anamorphics, I don't know of any phone with an anamorphic lens, either. There's plenty of room for a new player, if they do it right. Just avoid Android as the OS.

And further, nobody makes a digital compact with an anamorphic lens. I'm thinking of the Sony RX100 but with an anamorphic zoom. Who will make digital cameras exciting again?

Storing data is important but mundane. I don't think that Jim is headed in that direction.

Edit: The Light L16 is also interesting: https://light.co/camera

Tangerine was shot on an iPhone with anamorphic adaptor.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Tangerine was shot on an iPhone with anamorphic adaptor.

Yes, and that's the point: a phone with a built-in anamorphic lens would be worth thinking about.

As for data being lost, isn't it interesting how you have to try really, really hard to get rid of an email, and even then you will fail! Data is very delicate (as in the case of Toy Story 2), but at the same time it's very persistent, as in Hillary Clinton's emails... LOL Maybe all the data on Bittorrent servers will survive longer than any SAN or NAS.

As for the lens company, I suspect that I could do it via crowd funding. The key patents I want have expired long ago, thankfully. All I need are a brand name (done) and an optical engineering shop (several exist in America alone) to make the lenses. Problem with crowd funding: someone else can beat you to the punch once they know what you're doing, and I don't want that. Hint: the lenses are aimed at the press, photojournalists and documentary makers.

Heh, heh...

But I'm happy for anyone to make those M mount anamorphics. I think those will be way more useful and interesting than a lot of lens sets out there, and the market is quite saturated. They can also be sold to photographers, therefore increasing commercial sustainability.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Good questions, Eric. For me, light field capture is the next step. I love film, but you can't have light field film cameras. Why do I love this concept so much? Because it makes fast AF redundant. You do need some accuracy with light field cameras, but you don't need too much, and you don't need too much speed either. Sony's A9 is amazing, but less so when you consider the flexibility of light field.

And I have a dream to start a lens manufacturing company. There's an untapped market that nobody has targeted - in fact I told Lomography about it last year, and I got no reply. It would be perfect for them. One idea which I also passed to them, and which I am happy to share here, was to make some good Leica M mount anamorphic primes to go with an M mount 4-perf 35mm camera. Apertures of f/4 or even f/5.6 would be fine if it meant decent quality results.

And speaking of anamorphics, I don't know of any phone with an anamorphic lens, either. There's plenty of room for a new player, if they do it right. Just avoid Android as the OS.

And further, nobody makes a digital compact with an anamorphic lens. I'm thinking of the Sony RX100 but with an anamorphic zoom. Who will make digital cameras exciting again?

Storing data is important but mundane. I don't think that Jim is headed in that direction.

Edit: The Light L16 is also interesting: https://light.co/camera

Looks like they followed my advice about putting s 4k mode in the light16, but it really needed to be at least on 3 lens.

Don't worry about light field Karim. It is an impractical conceptual distraction for now. It requires tooi much from normal sensor and processing technology (there are stuff coming). It proved a bit of a fanciful dream for now. You only need 5 cameras to capture images you can decently post focus from a 3D map. Two camera systems lack enough information to examine and shape from the vertical axis, to get good results, 9 is more ideal.

As for a lens company, yeah, tall order. You would have to go contract manufacturing on IP you own to do cheaply. However, with a five camera post 3D af system, you only need mobile phone like sensors and lens. Also these can be high grade liquid lens hybrids, or totally. Even using liquid lens technology on larger normal format lens you can reduce the whole lens set to one of more lens in a reasonably compact form. Defintely a crowd sourced funder there.

Hey, @ Karim D G I think that's really interesting... Your "Dream" highlighted in gold (above) .

So what's stopping you... ? (If you don't mind me asking)? What is the main obstacle in your assessment of what you want to do ? I guess what I am (expressing badly) is why do you need anyone's permission (apart from IP issues that must be observed) to start your lens company? Your dream, why is it up to them?


You may be right about "Too mundane for Jim"... but it's only one leg of a three legged stool as practically anything else ultimately fails if that first leg is not taken care of? YKWIM?

Also did you watch "Racing Extinction" (lol)?

Cheers,

Eric


I don't know... One of those giant servers + super computer (as far as the eye can see) in a cave under a mountain somewhere, looking brutal and cool in its power and processing ability, glowing in all the right places yet dark and mysterious ... Would give me a "Boner" every morning that I stepped into it's space and "presence"... )... Just sayin ;-) (I'm not the only geeked up megalomaniac that would have the same feeling... ). [And knowing it was pulling its weight to store and preserve a significant chunk of humanities' cultural heritage including stuff shot on RED, that would be pretty cool; as well as providing access to frankly really amazing things remotely]. At some point we are going to have to "Man up" about the longevity of the media and imagery we create. It's not all disposable... Especially and crucially in the commercial sector. This is a case where the commercial sector related to media industries can do a "Solid" for the planet and cultural heritage/culture of mankind in the non-profit domain for once... Sort of a win-win (with a legacy/perpetuity to it?)... That ultimately everybody on the planet can benefit from/ future generations.

[Obviously I am aware of WHO is saying these types of things has more impact (in a lot of cases) rather than WHAT is being said... ].

Are you joking Eric. Not the same age, very established matured mined market, he's not in your circles, and in a country that slaps down on funding innovation, where even government programs are unsuitable, and there is hardly incentive for businesses to invest in development. I forget the other objections, as I had some guys chatting here. But most of our innovation goes overseas to get exploited for decades, and the manufacturing base has shrunk unsympathetically for decades more than the US. The government is no where near a proactive as the US in supporting industry. Where in the US, if you have a dream the mythological culture goes, people will be like go on become the next Martin Luther King, and help you along the way. Over here it has been sit down amd shut up attitude, trying with all your might to get somewhere, alone, against all sorts of negativity and obstacles, like people on Red user, whete rral people , then if you suceed you ate regarded as too bog fir your boots, a tall poppy that should be cut down. It has chsnged a lot in the last 4 decades, but the duscincentive and government policy attitudes still linger.

@EN... So you decided to wake this morning and stuff a bunch of words into other people's mouths based on some set of assumptions?

You don't speak for Karim and specifically why or what is preventing him from starting a lens company ?

Maybe he does have the money/access and the technical expertise and access to relevant equipment? (cough cough)... Maybe there are folks not too far away that would be interested in helping him with such an endeavor that are already tooled up for such things (cough cough).


[Just as a side note, I'm selling a very nice Ranch in New Mexico so I can make key equipment purchases, mainly extending our machining/automation capabilities... That works for me + decent financing... Everything that is worthwhile requires risk and dedication but at the same time a well thought out exit strategy is required too and various plan B's that enable you to keep going and keep going well no matter what... That's the point always devise better ways to keep playing the game and raise your game and increase your capabilities (in house) or otherwise].


EN writes "I once thought like you that all you need is the desire, the right equipment, some free cast and crew, some time and VOILA!... hit movie. "




"I once thought like you... "... That is not my ambition at all, I have 13 granted "International" (foreign territory and national territory) patents (that I prosecuted myself, including Japan, that I'm particularly proud of as they did not cite any prior art). We are working hammer and tongues to roll out the tech I/we have been developing over the past ten years + (that was a spin out of a Ph.D I did at Cambridge University in the U.K. which was based on years of research and field work before that. I am not a failed/frustrated film maker... I literally grew up in the film business on some of the biggest and most famous productions that have ever been... BUT I am a huge fan of the documentary format... On the craft side we engage in really serious photography... (no doubt about it).

Trust me money is not the obstacle... And Jim, Jarred, Graham and many many others that constitute RED have made a lot of those traditional obstacles disappear....

That is my point, that's not Karim, his age and place, in an extreme hard funding place turning towards down turn, industry falling over, and on the tail end of a very depressed funding market. It's fanciful in that way. He is going to have to find a way to bypass every obstacle, maybe get in bed with a trusty third work manufacturer (India has lens makers, but I don't know if it is a more trustworthy market or not) learn the business culture and culture there to avoid getting done. In a maybe not great margin business doing what he wants competitively, get and defend IP in a market, unlike yours, prime for knockoffs that try to appear genuine down to signatures, which will get returned for warrantee with your staff barely being able to visually tell the difference. That's the reality.

If you want him to do it, I suggest you go in business with him?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yes, and that's the point: a phone with a built-in anamorphic lens would be worth thinking about.

As for data being lost, isn't it interesting how you have to try really, really hard to get rid of an email, and even then you will fail! Data is very delicate (as in the case of Toy Story 2), but at the same time it's very persistent, as in Hillary Clinton's emails... LOL Maybe all the data on Bittorrent servers will survive longer than any SAN or NAS.

As for the lens company, I suspect that I could do it via crowd funding. The key patents I want have expired long ago, thankfully. All I need are a brand name (done) and an optical engineering shop (several exist in America alone) to make the lenses. Problem with crowd funding: someone else can beat you to the punch once they know what you're doing, and I don't want that. Hint: the lenses are aimed at the press, photojournalists and documentary makers.

Heh, heh...

But I'm happy for anyone to make those M mount anamorphics. I think those will be way more useful and interesting than a lot of lens sets out there, and the market is quite saturated. They can also be sold to photographers, therefore increasing commercial sustainability.

Yep you're on it already I agree with your market. And you are right, showing your IP to get crowd funding before you have git tje money to protect it, is nuts.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Now Eric. I have been thinking of using Quantum dot cellular automata to store, particularly magnetic. However, even at atomic level,you still need a lot of spacing for the circuit mechanisms. However, other forms of magnetic circuit may be more compact. Now, core memory used to be very resistant to corruption. If something was available that could also resist corruption over vast periods, and if corruption occurred, could sense and repair it with encoding and other fail safes, using the same energy that caused the corruption, it would be a very good alternative, and also act as an active memory circuit in an VR archival database.

Now, as for data centers, they are big, and need a lot of, time, money and energy to run. Somebody was saying that your google search requires as much energy as boiling a cup of water. Obviously a VR map of history is going be a lot more. However, magnetic Quantum dot Cellular, particularly if I can get it to run 1-2 Thz (this us along my present path), can fill this need, mixed with some simple optical processing circuits. I'm working towards a dream of mine nearly 4 decades ago, but in a different, more realistic path, without the neural training like ability. I'm looking at some interesting things. My processing circuit propossals add more, and my 3D processing ideas, and my 3D rendering proposal nobody has been able to better. Like the Monty Python song, Every little bit (and cycle, a little voice chirps up) is important (for efficiency). :smiley:

 

[Wayne Morellini]

@Michael McL


Ohhhh good pick... There's a great quote in the second clip that hopefully millennials won't take offense to.

"They have no knowledge of the past and no ambition of the future... " (Sounds almost like something Umberto Eco would have said...).

If you are someone that lies in that zone then it is possible that "New project" will or might indeed seem boring?

I have to admit the cynical/disposable nature of the way that folks consume media and (even video games) can seem quite depressing even for those that have to serve up and generate such media for such demand as an industry and business. This is why I (believe) that a lot of people in the media and the film business LOVE the process but in some instances try not to get too invested in the intended final result (just for sanity) other than doing their level best. Never the less there are of course some spellbinding cultural jewels that are made as movies and documentaries (and even music videos etc. ) every year that do INDEED deserve to last (culturally) forever as far as fate and good will and responsible people will allow.

@Michael McLaughlin, ... (as you mention media not going all HAL 9000...)... (I have always (secretly) wondered what would happen if we put only Wayne's posts into IBM's Watson does it plead for mercy or demand special rights for having to endure cruel and unusual punishment... complaining about the entropic and stochastic limits and concepts it is expected to analyze and "Understand" totally fried its circuitry and tied its algorithms into pretzels) ;-) (love you Wayne ;-) ).

Well that would only happen to a dumb machine wouldn't it? (The intelligent people in the thread would get the joke and everybody else doesn't get it, then again the intelligent.....).

Eric, you are using a lot of big fancy words today, but you know I basically, unless I'm joking etc, only use simple straight forwards practical language. However, some people around are so warped, they cant take straight language anymore. So very deflating of positiveness to deal with.

Now, I forgot, there is that software that can post locate and orientate phone footage to give you a 3D chronological series of events. That sort of thing can be used with such a database. See, phone footage can reveal life as it really happens, in the background, not very precise, but something at least historians will otherwise struggle to see, as those that report history color it, and change their opinions in reporting. At least glimpses. And my desire to genetically test every archeological grave in the world, to trace ancestry and population movements with some new technology.

 

[Eric Lange]

Now Eric. I have been thinking of using Quantum dot cellular automata to store, particularly magnetic. However, even at atomic level,you still need a lot of spacing for the circuit mechanisms. However, other forms of magnetic circuit may be more compact. Now, core memory used to be very resistant to corruption. If something was available that could also resist corruption over vast periods, and if corruption occurred, could sense and repair it with encoding and other fail safes, using the same energy that caused the corruption, it would be a very good alternative, and also act as an active memory circuit in an VR archival database.

Now, as for data centers, they are big, and need a lot of, time, money and energy to run. Somebody was saying that your google search requires as much energy as boiling a cup of water. Obviously a VR map of history is going be a lot more. However, magnetic Quantum dot Cellular, particularly if I can get it to run 1-2 Thz (this us along my present path), can fill this need, mixed with some simple optical processing circuits. I'm working towards a dream of mine nearly 4 decades ago, but in a different, more realistic path, without the neural training like ability. I'm looking at some interesting things. My processing circuit propossals add more, and my 3D processing ideas, and my 3D rendering proposal nobody has been able to better. Like the Monty Python song, Every little bit (and cycle, a little voice chirps up) is important (for efficiency). :smiley:

@Wayne... Do you mean "Every sperm is sacred" ? (Python lol) couldn't find "Every little bit" but I guess that's what you meant? [I was on set when that was being shot, f*cking hilarious watching all these extremely ambitious parents plastered around the back wall of the sound stage up to behind the camera, projecting every atom of ambition into their "Little one" singing such a song hoping that THIS... IS... their lucky break.. lol, Who knows probably some of those kids went on to do some really good and famous work?].

Wayne I like your idea of "Self healing" media... The idea that the ambient energy (that caused the corruption) could fix itself... Maybe at a quantum level that "Stuff" naturally nudges itself back into its proper place/discrete state if it is "tempted" to wander or jump somewhere else, as to violate the original "Position" of said "bit" would take a lot more energy. That's kinda the opposite of natural degradation processes as everything tries to return to lower energy state, "As a stone falls to the ground" as we say.

Years ago at the (ultimately) ill fated Museum of Broadcasting (in NY), they had a robot that would move tapes around and the system would perform triple redundancy parity checks. [For those that aren't familiar with that, its a bit like rock paper scissors... Three copies of the data and data stream A reads 1, data copy B reads1 and data copy C reads 1... Then everything is OK... If copy A reads 1 and copy B reads 0 and copy C reads 1, then you correct B back to 1. Or other combinations 1,1,0 (correct 0) or 0,1,1, (fix 0) Or if A=0, B= 0, C=0 (everything is the same, so everything is ok, no need to correct). You get the idea... However it's not impossible to have a double corruption of two incorrect parallel bit streams but not sure what the probability would be? (Depends on the media I guess). Obviously file headers and codexs/codices are far more important than the corruption of 1 bit in an image perhaps... So you have massive redundancy in data that is super critical to functional reading, unless you have a totally iron clad format that is spatially prefigured on the substrate/medium. [Now I'm starting to sound wayner lol]. Ohh dear I'm in trouble...

The other thing about media with a longer shelf life is how do you acceleratedly test the media in a fashion that's actually representative of what's likely to happen? In Conservation (of artifacts and materials used) we do a lot of accelerated aging testing but not always a tight fit to what will actually happen as a more complex degradation process.

I'm starting to wonder if there is some sort of advantage to wavelet type compression schemes and the basic principals of REDCODE that actually lend itself to archival media?

The reason why Photographs and prints and so on do so well over a period of time like a 150 years (in the case of photography) is because its analog... colors change and fade, the spatial integrity of the original image changes due to warping and shrinkage etc, you can have spotting or local degradation artifacts, checking and cracking, but most of the image is immediately readable and recoverable and can be restored (digitally) in part if need be...

With wavelet compression type techniques does it provide a means to extract data / imagery from a partially corrupted file? If it is re-organized as a "Disk image"? In other words that one critical bit or hand full of bits doesn't f*ck everything up?


Honestly anything digitally that could get us to a 50 year mark would be super useful as we hope that re-copying and uploading to new data and storage media would be way more efficient 50 years from now?

 

[Eric Lange]

So picking up on what Wayne's putting down...

So...

Quantum-dot (thingy) + REDCODE (type thingy) + Stable substrate/material = Archival Digital Master... (Read Only "Memory"). Thingy ?





[I'm starting to "Get" maybe what Wayne's going on about here... The point is that Quantum dots (as such) appear in stained glass over hundreds of years... In stable soda based glasses like blue (Chartres cathedral being a famous example... being famous for its blue glass; BUT that's because originally it was multi colored and other more unstable glasses were red and green and yellow... So all the other colors decayed leaving ONLY the beautiful blue glass ... Took the batter part of a thousand years for that to happen.) . HOWEVER by stark contrast some Roman glass that IS stable has quantum dot characteristics that can maintain a RED and a GREEN for thousands of years and have special other effects.]. So magnetically stored signals become blurred and ambiguous over time whereas a data "Bit" of some kind stored as GREEN, or YELLOW, or BLUE, or RED, "Dot.." or Quantum Dot/ Q-dot, or maybe even something not in the visible spectrum, like Ulta-violet...Means you can always distinguish a RED "dot" from a "Yellow" dot, from a "Blue" dot and so on... With stable glasses that are used in the nuclear industry (I guess some kind of Boro-silicate), then if you can "Burn" or write "quantum-dots" (Like the display devices now perhaps?) in a controlled manner at a sufficiently small scale then maybe one does indeed have "MEDIA" that last's thousands of years... ].

That would be quite funny as even if Elsie N wanted to throw his movies and footage out into a rubbish dump somewhere... Archaeologists 600 years from now would be able to read his movies LOL... (after excavating a 21 century rubbish dump).

Almost like NO massive archive required (necessarily) because your data would "live" for a 1000 years or more... LOL..

Want to pass it onto posterity? Want to live forever (Like "FAME...") Just throw it away (lol) Don't recycle it. Let it sit in a landfill for the better part of a 1000 years...


If the footage that is shot is encoded with GPS, and orientation data and time then any archeologist/researcher of the future can "Snap" that into a meaningful framework organized by time and space...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Like the Monty Python song, but not the same, the same sentiment about efficiency.

Yeah, I was thinking of setting a high energy potential for change, unauthorised change instead, allowing low system made changes. But there is a technique to reverse the processing circuit function and recover the energy. Apparently QDCA is good at if. While something like this could be used, simply collecting the energy to initiate a recovery trigger is enough. The circuit then provides the remaining energy, or wakes then does so. But the advantage of this is its simple, and after the trigger energy the wake to complete repair can be delayed even years.

Read and write memory.
However, it all depends on suitable technology for stability. Going back into magnetics, disks loose bits over time. Ferro electric I don't know, but other magnetic are more stable.


Reed-solomon matrix encoding was used in voyager, to recover errors. Where the technology is at now, I don't know. Simple parity systems are prone to corruption, so I conceived something better.

Look up digital paper. With film, you don't have to use analogue. Every grain of silver nitrate can be a bit.

 

[Eric Lange]

Like the Monty Python song, but not the same, the same sentiment about efficiency.

Yeah, I was thinking of setting a high energy potential for change, unauthorised change instead, allowing low system made changes. But there is a technique to reverse the processing circuit function and recover the energy. Apparently QDCA is good at if. While something like this could be used, simply collecting the energy to initiate a recovery trigger is enough. The circuit then provides the remaining energy, or wakes then does so. But the advantage of this is its simple, and after the trigger energy the wake to complete repair can be delayed even years.

Read and write memory.
However, it all depends on suitable technology for stability. Going back into magnetics, disks loose bits over time. Ferro electric I don't know, but other magnetic are more stable.


Reed-solomon matrix encoding was used in voyager, to recover errors. Where the technology is at now, I don't know. Simple parity systems are prone to corruption, so I conceived something better.

Look up digital paper. With film, you don't have to use analogue. Every grain of silver nitrate can be a bit.

LOL...

OK so we have...

1. Reed-Solomon matrix encoding decoding...

2. digital paper...

3. Silver nitrate grains as bits...

4. Magnetic media Hard Drives and SSD (Solid State drives).

5. And our good friends the Quantum dots.

______________________________________________


1. Reed-Solomon matrix encoding decoding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed–Solomon_error_correction

This is super interesting as it's pretty much in everything... Also interesting for me as the "Math" is very similar to what we do on other things (Least squares adjustments/linearization of non linear systems/linear regression techniques + jiggery pokery with various polynomials for lens correction all "Smashed together" into one BIG adjustment). So intuitively (as I don't work on Reed Solomon coding/signal processing, nor actually do that much (directly) with wavelet compression schemes... but they seem like they would be "made for eachother" as well as some of the other "Fourier" techniques presented on the Wikki page.

Also of interest is the discussion/talk where they try to give the author a hard time lol. (But valuable discussion in my vague opinion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reed–Solomon_error_correction


2. Digital Paper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_paper

So I didn't know exactly what they were doing, but its pretty f*cking mind blowing... LOL... So get this (Wayne already knows this I'm sure) ;

Quote from article/wikki:

"The dot pattern is a kind of two dimensional barcode; the most common is the proprietary Anoto dot pattern. In the Anoto dot pattern, the paper is divided into a grid with a spacing of about 0.3*mm, a dot is printed near each intersection offset slightly in one of four directions, a camera in the pen typically records a 6*x*6 group of dots. The full pattern is claimed to consist of 669,845,157,115,773,458,169 dots, and to encompass an area exceeding 4.6 million km² (this corresponds to 73 trillion unique sheets of letter-size paper".


That's a trip... but very cool pattern/procedural pattern.


3. Silver Nitrate film grains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain

Most people know about this, but the "Takeaway" is that film grain distribution can be between 1 micron to 40 micron... (I'm not a "Nano-guy" but that seems pretty "Chunky" to me/ low density... I guess the point or takeaway is that FILM archiving is 100 times less efficient in space versus some sort of digital storage that can store data to 10 to 20 nanometer .

So even if one develops digital optical media that is BIG in size it's still going to be smaller and more efficient than film reels/safety film in a refrigerated vault or BW color separations etc.



4. Magnetic media Hard Drives and SSD (Solid State drives).

This is a good friendly over view of Hard Drive technology


https://www.slideshare.net/ijtra/a-...f-the-magnetic-hard-disk-drive-hdd-technology

The useful thing from that is the recognition of (as of 2014) a storage bit density of 826 Giga bits per square inch (I am assuming that's multi pattered?) I guess roughly 0.8 TB/inch^2 (roughly 1 TB per square inch?).

This is a GREAT youtube video explaining how Solid State Drives / media work and their various incarnations and perils and pit falls especially with regard to data corruption and un-energized shelf life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0XR4HIgBq0

My take-away from that is Magnetic media (especially SSDs) is BAD for Archival storage... Magnetic anything for long term storage, unattended sitting on a shelf = a real no, no...




5. The Quantum dots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dot

They seem pretty awesome, one of the un-intuitive things about them is that they are smaller than the wavelength of light , smaller than 560 nm (green) and are of the order of 20 to 100 nano materes... There's no end of ways to "Monkey" about with the quantum dot things... Colloidal suspensions, viral assembly, and all kinds of wackadoodle things that you can do. Some VERY practical (obviously) and some just really out there (right now)... like next century type technology.

Never the less they are indeed small enough to be used to encode data (I guess) as I'm not sure how they would be read at the sub wavelength of light... So maybe wired offsets etc. or something that has the offset technique like "Digital paper"... But then what???? (No idea)...




Wayne style techno-mash-up...

So using the digital paper idea to define a massive yet subtle pattern on the media that counteracts for any thermal expansion, or warping of shifts... + Pre-encoded "control points" that work for polynomial "recovery"/error correction for Wavelet encoded data + stable optical media + (maybe quantum dot thingy) + Probably has to be implemented in a spatially arranged 3d matrix / volume physically to stuff it all in to a compact space.?????


The only conclusion I can come to (at this moment) is IF by chance or remote possibility that Team Jim is working on this stuff in this area to produce a new format both physical and digital scheme/signal processing, then I'm not surprised that that would fit with the comment Jim made (paraphrase) "This is the most complex thing I have ever worked on..."... and "Go big or go home"...

Ambitious and VERY difficult. [BTW if any Patent examiner is generating 103 style objections on this tech I would respectfully submit that they are probably "Smoking crack" on that one.... The combination of this and that to produce the invention by someone of the "Ordinary skill in the art" is super, super, super, super NON-OBVIOUS... (lol) cough, cough to close the gap to produce something that actually works and is useful!. Seriously... Some "difficult" patent examiners like to confabulate all kinds of nonsense as combinations thereof to produce the "Invention" but if one patent application does not actually teach the combination of the other or the examiner is using the combination 5 separate inventions/applications... Then it's game over (or should be) for the examiner's argument "... as the combination of these inventions would be obvious to anyone of ordinary skill in the art..." ... Not! ].

In my limited mind and experience I'm thinking along the lines that if one wants long term archival storage then it's probably going to be optical (not magnetic) and for a while actually might be physically bigger and more clunky than smaller more dense (and more volatile) magnetic media.


[Does beg the question could you have a glass archival film "stock" that's 100 times smaller than a film reel using quantum dots? Kinda wild, but analogue lol. As the Quantum dot is still Red green or blue etc. but much much smaller than a film grain?
Kind of a very counter intuitive idea for the "Digital Age"... ].


OK morning coffee over with... Back to the Grind stone.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Well Jim, it's been exactly 1 year since you started this thread and my curiosity is just as strong. Any chance will get an update?
Hope all is well. Thanks for making incredible stuff.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Like the Monty Python song, but not the same, the same sentiment about efficiency.

Yeah, I was thinking of setting a high energy potential for change, unauthorised change instead, allowing low system made changes. But there is a technique to reverse the processing circuit function and recover the energy. Apparently QDCA is good at if. While something like this could be used, simply collecting the energy to initiate a recovery trigger is enough. The circuit then provides the remaining energy, or wakes then does so. But the advantage of this is its simple, and after the trigger energy the wake to complete repair can be delayed even years.

Read and write memory.
However, it all depends on suitable technology for stability. Going back into magnetics, disks loose bits over time. Ferro electric I don't know, but other magnetic are more stable.


Reed-solomon matrix encoding was used in voyager, to recover errors. Where the technology is at now, I don't know. Simple parity systems are prone to corruption, so I conceived something better.

Look up digital paper. With film, you don't have to use analogue. Every grain of silver nitrate can be a bit.

Ok. Sorry about that, as I was falling asleep mid sentence a lot and had to quit for the night.

Not Quantum dot glass lol! I meant magnetic quantum dots, or electron well. I'll have to learn to stop putting dot in there, as people associate it with the other dot. You come up with a new avenue from what I said, love it. But, with crystals, or voids is another one, you have to integrate that into a stable matrix.

With magnetics, you can get 1000 year rare earth materials, but why should a field dissipate too quickly at all on the atomic scale. Ferro electric memory ? are very positional, its the constraints put on it will hold the value somewhat, but the mechanism used to write it, opens up an avenue for corruption. The key is atomic level 3D printing, because even if it is too expensive to produce that way, somebody could buy the printer and wait the months to print it. So, I'm looking forwards to developing high speed atomic level printing. You could print all sorts of wonderful circuits that there is no real mass market industrial process to print cheaply, and because there is no middle man, you could print for a lot less than buying ready made.

However, you haven't referred to digital paper which I mentioned. From memory, it was a polymer substance used in a 1980's storage tape proposal. A laser punched holes in it to store data. Even with corruption it can be obvious a hole was there, as long as a compatible chemical/etc process doesn't fill in the holes with original material. So keeping certain things away can stop complete fill in of a hole. Using thus process on an embedded atomic level, you could achieve good results.

I have my own ideas for archive, QCA is not one of them, but if you only want to achieve more than 20 years look at that. You could also look at the new 100-1000 year disk technology?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ok, just reading through the latest post Eric. Funny, you have a very expansive mind, as do I, but I prefer to keep things practically simple, easy to do and cheaper to do that way.

Not that type of digital paper.

The point of the film, is that if you want something that lasts for more than 20 years, there it is. Using lossless compression on a regular matrix of dots, or offsetted like above, you can achieve higher density than film itself. But silver nitrate, was only one example. You can place grains artificially as close as you can, or even use single atoms of something else. The point is, they know how to archive film emulsion.

 

[Eric Lange]

Ok. Sorry about that, as I was falling asleep mid sentence a lot and had to quit for the night.

<snip/snips>

However, you haven't referred to digital paper which I mentioned. From memory, it was a polymer substance used in a 1980's storage tape proposal. A laser punched holes in it to store data. Even with corruption it can be obvious a hole was there, as long as a compatible chemical/etc process doesn't fill in the holes with original material. So keeping certain things away can stop complete fill in of a hole. Using thus process on an embedded atomic level, you could achieve good results.

I have my own ideas for archive, QCA is not one of them, but if you only want to achieve more than 20 years look at that. You could also look at the new 100-1000 year disk technology?

Ok ... Just did , thanks for referencing that.

The problem is with the "1000" year disk that they claim, the stated substrate/medium is POLYCARBONATE...

Although the data layer is "lithic" / stone, / possibly stable, the disk itself is NOT ... (certainly not for a 1000 years or anywhere close... lol) maybe 60 years in a refrigerated vault (max).

I graduated (for my first degree) as a materials scientist and archeological conservator. My first research fellowship was at the Smithsonian, and specifically the National Air and Space Museum. So I did very specific research projects on the degradation of key materials (polymers and synthetic and natural rubbers etc.) concerned with the Nation's collection of space suits; published papers, but also had a hand in doing massive condition reports of large parts of the NASM collections... (Tens of thousands of objects composed of modern/contemporary materials that were 20 to 100 years old or more; whole spectrum of modern materials). [Also helped and advise on various aircraft restoration, including (at that time) we had the Enola Gay in 50 thousand pieces...].

So Although POLYCARBONATE is a lot more stable than a lot of polymers it's not completely stable... It's the stuff your car head lamp housings are made from... So as a polymer it does suffer from thermal degradation (no matter what) [polymers of bisphenol/Polycarbonate do suffer from chain scission at the isopropylidene linkage, suffer from hydrolysis/alcoholysis from free radical formation, that also forms peroxides, and further branching of the polymer (matrix) occurs. Shorter chain length decay products will weep out of the body of the polymer and also degrade and give rise to acids and so on until the degradation process becomes autocatalytic... The disks will suffer eventually from preferential degradation from (locked in) stresses/stress cracking from the manufacturing process and will become relatively opaque, cracked, checked, and distorted especially as the material is relatively thin/high surface area. Various polymer formulations are not guaranteed either... (so sometime they "add" other ingredients that make for better working properties of the material but will also weep out eventually as a separate phase... plasticizers being a more common example used in other polymers).

Long story short/common sense ... If you were to build a Cathedral type building that has to last 1000 years + that had stained glass windows would you use POLYCARBONATE instead, for the leaded "glass" ? And the answer is NO. POLYCARBONATE although a lot more stable than a lot of other polymers is NOT a good choice for a long term archival material or substrate.


I would prefer something that is a very stable metal/ or gold film, or a nuclear grade borosilicate or some kind of glass... (even regular soda based glasses are waaaaaay more stable than POLYCARBONATE).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ok ... Just did , thanks for referencing that.

The problem is with the "1000" year disk that they claim, the stated substrate/medium is POLYCARBONATE...

Although the data layer is "lithic" / stone, / possibly stable, the disk itself is NOT ... (certainly not for a 1000 years or anywhere close... lol) maybe 60 years in a refrigerated vault (max).

I graduated (for my first degree) as a materials scientist and archeological conservator. My first research fellowship was at the Smithsonian, and specifically the National Air and Space Museum. So I did very specific research projects on the degradation of key materials (polymers and synthetic and natural rubbers etc.) concerned with the Nation's collection of space suits; published papers, but also had a hand in doing massive condition reports of large parts of the NASM collections... (Tens of thousands of objects composed of modern/contemporary materials that were 20 to 100 years old or more; whole spectrum of modern materials). [Also helped and advise on various aircraft restoration, including (at that time) we had the Enola Gay in 50 thousand pieces...].

So Although POLYCARBONATE is a lot more stable than a lot of polymers it's not completely stable... It's the stuff your car head lamp housings are made from... So as a polymer it does suffer from thermal degradation (no matter what) [polymers of bisphenol/Polycarbonate do suffer from chain scission at the isopropylidene linkage, suffer from hydrolysis/alcoholysis from free radical formation, that also forms peroxides, and further branching of the polymer (matrix) occurs. Shorter chain length decay products will weep out of the body of the polymer and also degrade and give rise to acids and so on until the degradation process becomes autocatalytic... The disks will suffer eventually from preferential degradation from (locked in) stresses/stress cracking from the manufacturing process and will become relatively opaque, cracked, checked, and distorted especially as the material is relatively thin/high surface area. Various polymer formulations are not guaranteed either... (so sometime they "add" other ingredients that make for better working properties of the material but will also weep out eventually as a separate phase... plasticizers being a more common example used in other polymers).

Long story short/common sense ... If you were to build a Cathedral type building that has to last 1000 years + that had stained glass windows would you use POLYCARBONATE instead, for the leaded "glass" ? And the answer is NO. POLYCARBONATE although a lot more stable than a lot of other polymers is NOT a good choice for a long term archival material or substrate.


I would prefer something that is a very stable metal/ or gold film, or a nuclear grade borosilicate or some kind of glass... (even regular soda based glasses are waaaaaay more stable than POLYCARBONATE).

Interesting, maybe if they freeze it for a thousand years and don't spin it :smiley: Pretty incredible they couldn't find a more stable substrate. What they do need is compounds that incorporate silver, as fungus etc hate that. But maybe just a silver compound top and bottom costs, but you can't make that clear stably can you? But you don't need too, as long as there are gaps for the reading energy to get around off angle.. Actually you can make it transparent to the reading laser. There is a little known quantum trick where you can use specific frequencies matched to a substance to make it transparent.

Hard to believe they didn't address the substrate,not like they ate going be around in 20 years with a patent to resell them more of the same disk.. But still, there you have something that lasts 20+ years.

Have a search for my posts on storage and archiving, I mention some if the things I'm thinking. I've visited the problem space a number if times since the 1980's

A materials engineer, I need one of those. I dread the prospect if studying chemistry etc, to get to grips with some of the things I want to do. My atomic 3D printing ideas would negate a lot of the need for chemical processes, you could basically have software that warns you of potential risks, so only moderate knowledge is needed to do basic things with non new substances.


Where did I read about glass platters? I agree, metal glass etc. But one of you biggest issues is compromise to make discs durable for spinning at high speeds. I looked at non spinning methods in the 90's maybe. Now, you don't need disks, just something that sits there. I've looked at how to solve many storage and archival problems and cone up with a number of things, as my other research also rolled into it. So yeah, 1000, 1 million years I've realistically looked at. I even had a desire for a design that could spread across the earth stone like devices that contained a condensed practical knowledge of the human race, in case of disaster. The thought being, even if a ludite like group took over (which we see these days) it would be virtually impossible for them to find and destroy all of them. All this stuff relies on specific techniques to preserve and read and construct readers. If there was a new universe coming, if you can slow time you can survive the history of the universe into such a universe. I don't believe in it myself, but have figured out what needed to be done. Apart from the storage technique itself, the survival technique comes from my science fiction writing ideas, where I used to extensively design new things for the fun of it. However, like many of my scifi inventions, it maybe practically doable.


An interesting idea for my writing came up. If you were to design something to preserve yourselves past the end of the universe into a future universe, you could potentially loose energy and time repeatedly checking if a new universe has formed, and if that one was suitable for your life, and die in the meantime. So procedures have to be made to minimise this. However, if you reduced the rate of checking eventually you may miss an entire suitable universe. Now, the gap between universes maybe as many times as big as the universe history will be in years or even plank seconds, and the number you have to go through to find a compatible one maybe just as big, so a passive device maybe needed, but thus introduces more risk of failure. Whatever you do induces more avenues for risk. And after all that, which just occurred to me, a universe might not even form in your region for much longer, so you miss it. It's not like exactly the same universe is going to form so many feet over and six feet lower These are the practical things you have to consider writing good scifi.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Don't forget digital paper, the trick is you don't have to use polymer to punch holes in.

I actually had a tape mechanism I wanted to shop to Sony, aimed at 1000 years. I think I was pretty incredulous about Buck Rogers finding a 500 year old VHS tape, putting it in the machine and it works (perfectly) Lol! However, I came up with a very good, very very high density proposal.

 

[Eric Lange]

Interesting, maybe if they freeze it for a thousand years and don't spin it :smiley: Pretty incredible they couldn't find a more stable substrate. What they do need is compounds that incorporate silver, as fungus etc hate that. But maybe just a silver compound top and bottom costs, but you can't make that clear stably can you? But you don't need too, as long as there are gaps for the reading energy to get around off angle.. Actually you can make it transparent to the reading laser. There is a little known quantum trick where you can use specific frequencies matched to a substance to make it transparent.

Hard to believe they didn't address the substrate,not like they ate going be around in 20 years with a patent to resell them more of the same disk.. But still, there you have something that lasts 20+ years.

Have a search for my posts on storage and archiving, I mention some if the things I'm thinking. I've visited the problem space a number if times since the 1980's

A materials engineer, I need one of those. I dread the prospect if studying chemistry etc, to get to grips with some of the things I want to do. My atomic 3D printing ideas would negate a lot of the need for chemical processes, you could basically have software that warns you of potential risks, so only moderate knowledge is needed to do basic things with non new substances.


Where did I read about glass platters? I agree, metal glass etc. But one of you biggest issues is compromise to make discs durable for spinning at high speeds. I looked at non spinning methods in the 90's maybe. Now, you don't need disks, just something that sits there. I've looked at how to solve many storage and archival problems and cone up with a number of things, as my other research also rolled into it. So yeah, 1000, 1 million years I've realistically looked at. I even had a desire for a design that could spread across the earth stone like devices that contained a condensed practical knowledge of the human race, in case of disaster. The thought being, even if a ludite like group took over (which we see these days) it would be virtually impossible for them to find and destroy all of them. All this stuff relies on specific techniques to preserve and read and construct readers. If there was a new universe coming, if you can slow time you can survive the history of the universe into such a universe. I don't believe in it myself, but have figured out what needed to be done. Apart from the storage technique itself, the survival technique comes from my science fiction writing ideas, where I used to extensively design new things for the fun of it. However, like many of my scifi inventions, it maybe practically doable.


An interesting idea for my writing came up. If you were to design something to preserve yourselves past the end of the universe into a future universe, you could potentially loose energy and time repeatedly checking if a new universe has formed, and if that one was suitable for your life, and die in the meantime. So procedures have to be made to minimise this. However, if you reduced the rate of checking eventually you may miss an entire suitable universe. Now, the gap between universes maybe as many times as big as the universe history will be in years or even plank seconds, and the number you have to go through to find a compatible one maybe just as big, so a passive device maybe needed, but thus introduces more risk of failure. Whatever you do induces more avenues for risk. And after all that, which just occurred to me, a universe might not even form in your region for much longer, so you miss it. It's not like exactly the same universe is going to form so many feet over and six feet lower These are the practical things you have to consider writing good scifi.

That's why I say if you fed Wayne's posts into IBM's Watson, it will keel over and go "F*ck you... What the hell did I ever do to you!"... (The digital equivalent of giving you the finger and then Waving the white flag, before keeling over).

 

[Eric Lange]

Archives VS Digital Media

Archives VS Digital Media

Picking up on some really interesting points that Wayne M raises here...

1. What is an Archive?

2. Entropy and Digital charge based storage.

________________________________________________


1. "Archives" ?

OK... An archive is not just a "Repository" for random digital information ... (We have the internet for that lol) . Archives have to be managed, very much in the same way as an entire museum operates, but in in microcosm.

So you need PEOPLE like "Collection's Managers", and Curators to decide what to collect and maintain in perpetuity. But to do that requires active research in fields relevant to the intended scope of the collection... And in some sense (hence curatorship) from time to time "Stuff" has to be presented in a meaningful coherent way (using the collection), such as published papers and exhibitions in real space or virtual space and so on. Further to that there does need to be public outreach into more popular culture and venues to engage the "People" from the general public that a notional archive serves. Another mandated component that delineates a visitors center from Museum is there is active research going on (by researchers/education) and that the collection can be made available to the general public in various ways. The digital archive has much in common with a physical museum... Except for the fact that most artifacts in a collection are thousands of times more stable (won't disappear in a hurry) as compared to a digital archive... (Unless pretty extreme measures are taken). The fundamental idea is an Archive is an active 'Living" entity (that folks of all levels can get involved with, one way or another), rather than a static dead "Monolith". Volunteers are a huge part of any archive and or museum.



2. "Flash memory" VS Entropy (and the current universe WE live in (cough, cough)

The problem with modern flash SSD type memory systems is that when un-energized that the clock starts to run for how that pattern of stored charges will become corrupted. Wayne M puts forward the possibility that when such charges wander into different positions and locations over time... In essence head towards a lower energy state resulting in greater randomness in the pattern of charges, that it would be possible to somehow retroactively energize the system so that the charges could somehow "Find their way back" to their original positions. [ I liken this to "Theseus and the Minotaur"; There's no magic piece of string that will lead your hapless "Bit" or "charge" back to its original location before it got corrupted even if one were to "Energize the labyrinth" . Even in semiconductors the "holes" move about quite a bit... It's not like a charge can tunnel its way back through the maze of "Dislocations" to find its original position? (Unless of course we live in a universe where Time goes backwards and we are heading to a "Big Crunch" rather than an expanding universe that arose from a "Big Bang". I have to admit self healing media is a very intriguing idea. ( I don't know if that is relevant to any court cases going on right now ? (lol-ish) .

Self healing reverse entropy mechanism... I invoke the Scotty clause here... ;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZ12UGiisM

______________________________________________________________________


Random "Tech-salad... ".

@wayne optical tape is not very random access I think that's why we still use the "disk spinny thingy" still... But like you I wonder about 2001 (Space Odyssey) transparent rectangular memory modules as shown and disengaged, one by one in the famous "Take HAL's mind of line" scene.

@Wayne "Dude" can you give me a specific reference to the digital paper you are thinking of here?

At least on magnetic hard drives there is the possibility of recoverability to a certain extent, such as relevant techs skilled in that art of "Picking up the thread" manually using an oscilloscope and a clean room and traversing corrupted data.

I also have this "Vibe" that data stored in the spatial (frequency) domain would theoretically be much less susceptible to corruption as even if you trashed 5% or 10 % of the data clean imagery could be recovered with minimal cosmetic loss and stiil maintain decent/useful accuracy (based on more redundant encoding schemes perhaps?).

Cheers.