New Panavision Sensor may have lead to Price Cut???

[Paul E. McCarthy]

http://www.panavision.com/content/panavision-imaging-launches-dynamax-11-cmos-image-sensor

I'm pissed about the price cut too as I was when Scratch was price cut from 70k to 20k. There is always a why and with Scratch it was the monster DaVinci as the cause perhaps with the Epic cut it is Panavision.

I read this announcement and REDs strategy becomes a little more clear to me. I don't think Jim wanted to make a camera for the Hollywood Studios, or for rental houses, He was making a camera for the renegade filmmakers.

I wouldn't want to compete with Panavision if I was Jim either. I'm not saying that he couldn't, but there is a lot said for picking your battles wisely.

Epic will dominate the Owner/Op Market like the Varicam did and the Big Boys shooting the Big shows will shoot Panavision w/ Primos and the universe with stabilize again.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

A 2/3" sensor and 1080p is competition for Epic?

The D11-3.2Mp imager features a 5.0m pixel, 2/3” optical format with regions of interest (ROI) in a 16:9 HDTV format.

Maybe they are developing another higher resolution "D11" sensor, but it's not mentioned there. The articles says they are, "targeting markets such as Machine Vision, Intelligent Traffic Systems, Security, Surveillance, Life Sciences, Scientific Imaging, Biometrics and HDTV camcorders."

It can do 120fps though. Not bad for a traffic cam.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Panavision cameras are not for sale so I don't see why they would affect Red's pricing. And we're talking about a 2/3" sensor, which is also not Red's market.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

And the news are from last year. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

I think RED is going focus on Sony, Canon, Nikon market not the Arri/Panavision one that they have been. Their new price point alludes to competing with the C300 imo.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Panavision cameras are not for sale so I don't see why they would affect Red's pricing. And we're talking about a 2/3" sensor, which is also not Red's market.

I think a Panavision Digital camera being available will effect the number of productions using Epics

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2012/05/panavision-bsi-sensor-qe.html

more sensors

 

[Scott Crawley]

http://www.panavision.com/content/panavision-imaging-launches-dynamax-11-cmos-image-sensor

I'm pissed about the price cut too as I was when Scratch was price cut from 70k to 20k. There is always a why and with Scratch it was the monster DaVinci as the cause perhaps with the Epic cut it is Panavision.

I read this announcement and REDs strategy becomes a little more clear to me. I don't think Jim wanted to make a camera for the Hollywood Studios, or for rental houses, He was making a camera for the renegade filmmakers.

I wouldn't want to compete with Panavision if I was Jim either. I'm not saying that he couldn't, but there is a lot said for picking your battles wisely.

Epic will dominate the Owner/Op Market like the Varicam did and the Big Boys shooting the Big shows will shoot Panavision w/ Primos and the universe with stabilize again.

Some delusions are like a warm blanket, aren't they?

 

[Michael Brennan]

Panavision imaging make lots of sensors, the one mentioned above was made last year and like the majority of sensors is not for professional markets.
More recent news is a 17.4 MP at 90fps with a global shutter 14bit AD 4812 x3624pixel, once again aimed at industrial market.

However Panavision is working on a large format Dcinema camera that has been referred to on the net as digital 70mm.
Panavision aims high, the Genesis camera (development was the camera worlds best kept secret) and their 300x zoom for example, I assume John Galt is still involved at Panavision, John rolled out the F900 when he was head of Sony HD, then the Genesis.

Rob Baker, Randy Reck, and Haluki Sadahiro have joined Panavision, google these guys and you'll see they have potential to deliver.

If history repeats maybe they only need 90 or so D cinema cameras that will stay in house as a rental only?
In this respect one wonders, if R&D money is no object, that such a manufacturing/design model (custom designed, low numbers hand made) has potential to create a higher performance camera than a Sony f55 or Epic?
Panavision announced the Dynamax 35 ultra 37mp sensor in 2009. In 2009 JG's view was that true 4k of max fidelity, needs a larger sensor due to laws of optics, so a 37mp super 35 size sensor would be too small.
Excellent interview by Jeff Foster, covering history and pixel maths with John Galt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbN42e0QsEA

Mike Brennan

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Panavision imaging make lots of sensors, the one mentioned above was made last year and like the majority of sensors is not for professional markets.
More recent news is a 17.4 MP at 90fps with a global shutter 14bit AD 4812 x3624pixel, once again aimed at industrial market.

However Panavision is working on a large format Dcinema camera that has been referred to on the net as digital 70mm.
Panavision aims high, the Genesis camera (development was the camera worlds best kept secret) and their 300x zoom for example, I assume John Galt is still involved at Panavision, John rolled out the F900 when he was head of Sony HD, then the Genesis.

Rob Baker, Randy Reck, and Haluki Sadahiro have joined Panavision, google these guys and you'll see they have potential to deliver.

If history repeats maybe they only need 90 or so D cinema cameras that will stay in house as a rental only?
In this respect one wonders, if R&D money is no object, that such a manufacturing/design model (custom designed, low numbers hand made) has potential to create a higher performance camera than a Sony f55 or Epic?
Panavision announced the Dynamax 35 ultra 37mp sensor in 2009. In 2009 JG's view was that true 4k of max fidelity, needs a larger sensor due to laws of optics, so a 37mp super 35 size sensor would be too small.
Excellent interview by Jeff Foster, covering history and pixel maths with John Galt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbN42e0QsEA

Mike Brennan

Thanks Mike for your research. its nice when people add research and information to the thread instead of just making a snide comment.

And Scott. I'm not delusional but you are jerk.

Have a nice day.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Thanks Mike for your research. its nice when people add research and information to the thread instead of just making a snide comment.

And Scott. I'm not delusional but you are jerk.

Have a nice day.

I may be... And you might be a wee sensitive and lacking humor. Lighten up, you'll live longer.

Long life to you.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Oh that was a joke? hold on a second,... wait....wait....wait...
oh I get it now..., oh my god that was funny, I mean really really so funny. I am rolling on the ground belly laughing like its the puking scene in Team America right now (did you write Team America?). You are like George Carlin's and Eddie Murphy's love child you are so funny. Did you go to Comedy School? You should teach comedy and UCB theater in NY you are so funny, wait never mind that you should start your own Comedy School called The Scott Crawley School of Hilarity and Hijinks because you are so damn funny. I wish I could stop laughing you are too much. Do you know Lorne Michaels? maybe you could go on SNL(the cast is weak this season)? I wish i could stop laughing but I cant because you are too too hilarious old boy. A real ham.

You are like the male version of Phyllis Diller (RIP Phyllis I loved you on hollywood squares growin up)

Have I lighted up enough yet?

Its only humor if its funny bro.

Thanks for the health advice too, a Doctor and a Comedian, your parents must be so proud.

Peace and good luck to you.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Oh that was a joke? hold on a second,... wait....wait....wait...
oh I get it now..., oh my god that was funny, I mean really really so funny. I am rolling on the ground belly laughing like its the puking scene in Team America right now (did you write Team America?). You are like George Carlin's and Eddie Murphy's love child you are so funny. Did you go to Comedy School? You should teach comedy and UCB theater in NY you are so funny, wait never mind that you should start your own Comedy School called The Scott Crawley School of Hilarity and Hijinks because you are so damn funny. I wish I could stop laughing you are too much. Do you know Lorne Michaels? maybe you could go on SNL(the cast is weak this season)? I wish i could stop laughing but I cant because you are too too hilarious old boy. A real ham.


You are like the male version of Phyllis Diller (RIP Phyllis I loved you on hollywood squares growin up)


Have I lighted up enough yet?


Its only humor if its funny bro.


Thanks for the health advice too, a Doctor and a Comedian, your parents must be so proud.


Peace and good luck to you.

I guess I hit a nerve.


I merely pointed out the idea that Red was shying away from competition with Panavision for some reason, or that they would slip out of big feature production in favor of making gear that appeals to low rent customers was delusional. It was a characterization of an idea done in a lighthearted way, not a personal attack. I would call the person who engages in personal attacks over silliness a jerk. Your last two posts are clearly personal attacks. Thank you.

Before you unleashed your charm I thought I would do some research for you to support my theory but my list of quotes quickly became too long. Instead I will leave you with one link and one quote that seems to distill the evidence.


Here is the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?31-Recon


And here is the quote:

Jim on Who is Red

We didn't exactly know for sure. But we are slowly figuring it out.


The concept of RED was to build a camera with as much capability as possible... for the professional market. Then we thought we could extend it down a bit to the prosumer level. Apparently, that was a mistake.


We recently came to the conclusion that, indeed, we cater to the professional market. That's it. A pro camera company. We want to build the best tools possible for those that want to "man up". There are plenty of companies dedicated to selling prosumer (short for "almost right") cameras. We aren't going to be one of them.


If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are.


Jim

Hey man, you have been here since 2009 and you still know nothing about Red or the character of Jim Jannard. I guess that makes you a jerk AND an idiot.

There it is. You are right. I am a jerk.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

I guess I hit a nerve.


I merely pointed out the idea that Red was shying away from competition with Panavision for some reason, or that they would slip out of big feature production in favor of making gear that appeals to low rent customers was delusional. It was a characterization of an idea done in a lighthearted way, not a personal attack. I would call the person who engages in personal attacks over silliness a jerk. Your last two posts are clearly personal attacks. Thank you.

Before you unleashed your charm I thought I would do some research for you to support my theory but my list of quotes quickly became too long. Instead I will leave you with one link and one quote that seems to distill the evidence.


Here is the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?31-Recon


And here is the quote:

Jim on Who is Red

Calling some delusional is personal attack, especially in place like this.

I was just being funny just like you. Don't dish it out if you cant take it.

Actually I've been here since 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OKU5Ni70w&playnext=1&list=PL9D411DE2AAA77959&feature=results_main

Thats me on the crane just after I got off the phone with Jim Jannard as he talked me through setting the backfocus on the camera the day the camera was released. For some reason they thought a Jerk/idiot like me was good enough shoot with their newly released camera.

I never said the Epic wasn't a Pro Camera, but everyone sure thinks the Canon c300/500 is and its 16k and now Epic is priced to compete with it. I'm Just looking out into the world to see what could create this price drop like DaVinci did to Scratch.
Sorry if my curiousity offended.

And imo

You cant compete with Panavision because of there lens system. If you want their lenses you need to use there camera. There is a huge professional group of people that will only shoot Panavision because of the lenses.

There are Panavised Alexa's and Epics at Panavision now. Thats not how that company likes to function they like to own and create everything they rent the Genesis was their 1st deviation digitally and the 353 before that for high speed stuff as I recall during my days working for Panavision in Dallas TX in 1994 , I think its ignorant to think that they dont have something in the works especially when you look into who owns Panavision, that they share a building with Kodak now, and that Kodak has been selling Sensor patents due to their bankruptcy.

Panavison is very Union and so are Major Hollywood Productions so if you are shooting a 200 milllion dollar film chances are you'll be shooting Panavison and Primos in the states. Right now its Panavised Epics and Alexas but I'm sure they don't like that.

I love you Scott.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Play nice, guys. Don't make me put my Moderator Asshole hat on...


anyway...

I think RED is going focus on Sony, Canon, Nikon market not the Arri/Panavision one that they have been. Their new price point alludes to competing with the C300 imo.

I think your analysis is off. Here and in other posts re: Panavision, etc.. RED is not focused on competing, that is not their aim or goal. I think many tend to over-analyze. Jim / RED are focused on building the best camera(s) they can for the lowest price(s) they can. Period. If they could offer 6K with 16 stops DR in a package cheaper than a C300, they would do it. Rest of the industry be damned.

It's not about specific demographics, such as targeting indie or renegade filmmakers. Although, those are the types who stepped up to support RED early on. They feel their products are built for EVERYONE, they're not in business to support only rental houses or only indie owner/operators. The more cameras they sell, the larger share of the production industry they hold. The cheaper they can offer them, the more diverse their user base. The better the specs they can provide, the less likely people will be to consider other "competing" products.

The RED business model is nothing short of a swift kick to the groin to the status quo within the industry. Don't be surprised if by this time next year an EPIC brain with S35-sized Dragon sensor is under $15K. Not only that, they will have other new tech in the works, possibly released by then.

Jim / RED's business model and approach to all this, especially with the upgradeability, is to update and improve their product line faster and more drastically than the other guys can.


Panavision is not really competition in the same sense. Sure, they develop their own products occasionally, but they don't sell them. Panavision has purchased hundreds of RED cameras for their equipment fleet...

 

[Scott Crawley]

Calling some delusional is personal attack, especially in place like this.

I was just being funny just like you. Don't dish it out if you cant take it.

Actually I've been here since 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OKU5Ni70w&playnext=1&list=PL9D411DE2AAA77959&feature=results_main

Thats me on the crane just after I got off the phone with Jim Jannard as he talked me through setting the backfocus on the camera the day the camera was released. For some reason they thought a Jerk/idiot like me was good enough shoot with their newly released camera.

I never said the Epic wasn't a Pro Camera, but everyone sure thinks the Canon c300/500 is and its 16k and now Epic is priced to compete with it. I'm Just looking out into the world to see what could create this price drop like DaVinci did to Scratch.
Sorry if my curiousity offended.

And imo

You cant compete with Panavision because of there lens system. If you want their lenses you need to use there camera. There is a huge professional group of people that will only shoot Panavision because of the lenses.

There are Panavised Alexa's and Epics at Panavision now. Thats not how that company likes to function they like to own and create everything they rent the Genesis was their 1st deviation digitally and the 353 before that for high speed stuff as I recall during my days working for Panavision in Dallas TX in 1994 , I think its ignorant to think that they dont have something in the works especially when you look into who owns Panavision, that they share a building with Kodak now, and that Kodak has been selling Sensor patents due to their bankruptcy.

Panavison is very Union and so are Major Hollywood Productions so if you are shooting a 200 milllion dollar film chances are you'll be shooting Panavison and Primos in the states. Right now its Panavised Epics and Alexas but I'm sure they don't like that.

I love you Scott.

It's cool Paul. I'm not particularly offended. I won't deny that i expected my characterization to reflect on you somewhat, but I didn't state that "You are delusional." If you are happy believing that this disruptive force known as Red will soon be out of your hair and the universe will stabilize then by all means, wrap yourself in that. You are entitled to your delusion. It doesn't make you a bad guy nor did I mean to imply that in the first place. Your behavior since may suggest otherwise however. Coming to the RedUser site and wishing Red away also seemed like a hostile gesture. I could be wrong.

I am not suprised that my initial intent was misconstrued and I don't fault you for that. I really do wish you well.

BTW, my medical advise comes with more professional creds than my cinematography advise, so do have a laugh. ;-)

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Thanks Jeff.

i'm done here.

Close this thread down please.

 

[L. Langer]

Kids these days....

In before lock!

:closed2ur0:

 

[Nick Morrison]

The RED business model is nothing short of a swift kick to the groin to the status quo within the industry.

Love this. I've been struggling to describe their business model accurately, and I think Jeff this pretty much nails it. Haha, spot on.

 

[Matt Ryan]

If you want to use Panavision lenses on your own Epic/Scarlet, get this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panavision-PV-lenses-to-Epic-Scarlett-camera-mount-adapter-/251172823041?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7b112001

Now you too can have a Panavised Epic...