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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New MacPro predictions? Hopes? Fears?

Jarek Zabczynski said:
There's supposedly one insider that has seen the next MacPro and claims it has one processor, PCI slots for two GPUs but not a traditional tower. We can only hope.
Click to expand...

Unless Apple deviates from their original intentions with the Black Burrito, the next design will be almost entirely like the current one, only the core will be updated to reflect the changes in interfaces - TB3, USB 3.1, HDMI 2.X, ETC - along with newer CPUs and the GPUs will be updated versions of what is used now, but with GDDR5X at the baseline and likely a premium option with HBM2. Given Apple's hand-holding with Intel, Apple will likely put Optane SSDs as an option, which would greatly increase performance in conjunction with the other advances. On the other hand, Apple may yet surprise us all and launch an AMD APU-powered Mac Pro, with the rumored professional-grade 32-core Zen APU with 32GB of HBM2.
 
While I can understand the need for the ultimate, fastest machine with Mac OS, I personally see nothing wrong with maintaining the Trash Can design, as long as the internals follow current technological developments in GPU, RAM, SDD, Processor and of course expandability through Thunderbolt 3. Yes, this design does hinder some expandability vs a conventional PC BOX, but the form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's or on the move productions. Is the performance difference that much of a difference? Won't thunderbolt 3 bridge the gap between the conventional box and the Trashcan design?

I'm more excited for the upcoming Macbook Pro's. Using a Retina from 2012 and bare a burned USB port because of a faulty external drive, it runs like a champ, and has a very good screen. Hopefully the update brings a good performance boost beyond the rumoured led panel on the F keys areas.
 
jake blackstone said:
SuperMicro is a great computer. If only it wasn't so loud:)
I have no choice on the Linux. It's CentOS 6.6, which is the distro, that Resolve runs on. Installed ParagonNTFS/HFS and it's pretty much now a universal computer- it reads and writes anything you throw at it. Have 3 GPUs with room to spare and dual 12 core V3 processors, internal 8 drives Megaraid, a super cheap ATTO quad 8GB Fiber card to go with my old Fiber drives. I can literally install anything I want on this computer. It's nice not to worry about what Apple is going to do next...
Click to expand...

Very nice rig.

Have you done a geekbench on it? - I know that's only cpu, and does not reflect the gpu boost.

What's your turn round like compared to your previous set-up?


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Phew, no more "My theoretical reality is more valid than yours" ;-)
 
Apple should stop making Pro hardware and instead focus on boiling down approved specs for PC users to use OSX on. Open up OSX to work with PCs without becoming Hackintoshes. Innovation is dying within Apple, Steve jobs was the one inventing the future, Apple is now just a tech company like everyone else. Yes, I think they make the best laptops, that hold for years passed most PC laptops, but people have to stop kidding themselves over Apple being part of the professional league of workstations.

What Apple has and have always had is the best operating system. Windows sucks and has always done that in comparison. If I were the CEO of Apple I would recognize that the company doesn't have a revolutionary product like the "next big thing" anymore now that Microsoft and others are the one innovating the future with hololenses and such. I would recognize that the operating system is the most stable and best around and make that the top priority. Have the operating system for free for anyone with apple computers, but charge regular OS prices for anyone wanting to buy it for a PC built. Have a small team of hardware testers who constantly test new PC setups and approve certain hardware and motherboards for the OS.

Imagine what would happen if they did this. Everyone who is working with high end computing today would switch over to OSX, everyone would leave the windows interface if they could just download the OS and install it on their PC.

Apple need to do something because all they are doing now is taking away the headphone jack on the Iphone and calling it innovation.

Sell your Apple stocks people...
 
Sergio Perez said:
While I can understand the need for the ultimate, fastest machine with Mac OS, I personally see nothing wrong with maintaining the Trash Can design, as long as the internals follow current technological developments in GPU, RAM, SDD, Processor and of course expandability through Thunderbolt 3. Yes, this design does hinder some expandability vs a conventional PC BOX, but the form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's or on the move productions. Is the performance difference that much of a difference? Won't thunderbolt 3 bridge the gap between the conventional box and the Trashcan design?

I'm more excited for the upcoming Macbook Pro's. Using a Retina from 2012 and bare a burned USB port because of a faulty external drive, it runs like a champ, and has a very good screen. Hopefully the update brings a good performance boost beyond the rumoured led panel on the F keys areas.
Click to expand...

I am not DIT, so I wonder how the Trashcan "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's"? How is having rats nest of cables and multiple enclosures can be helpful to portability and dependability instead of a computer, like HP Z820/840, that allows everything to be contained inside of that computer?
 
Nicholas Croft said:
Very nice rig.

Have you done a geekbench on it? - I know that's only cpu, and does not reflect the gpu boost.

What's your turn round like compared to your previous set-up?


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Phew, no more "My theoretical reality is more valid than yours" ;-)
Click to expand...

Honestly, I never cared about the fastest gaming system. It's all about flexibility and ability to upgrade, when I need it. I still can drop in another GPU, if I want too. In the long run I can continue to reuse my old hardware, that despite being old in the tooth, still can be quite useful. My monitors are ancient Sony CRT and an old Panasonic plasma. My RAID drives are over 10 years old, my MacPro is over 5 years old. Even my 6 years old Dell is still used for certain work. I love to keep using old hardware and it can be had on Ebay for next to nothing. That's why I am so against the hardware, that can't be upgraded and must be discarded every couple of years...
 
They must come with an update to the graphic. Even my apple macbook pro is about the same speed as my 11k USD trashcan for most of the tasks. That does not make sense. I actually recommend people buying iMacs instead. Better bang for the buck, good screen and no fuss. The trashcan could be a killer but then it needs a huge graphic pipe update and they need to bring on tb3.
 
jake blackstone said:
I love to keep using old hardware and it can be had on Ebay for next to nothing. That's why I am so against the hardware, that can't be upgraded and must be discarded every couple of years...
Click to expand...

Agreed. In raw cpu speed, not a lot has changed since 2011. There are some great bargains, if you don't mind giving up some of the newer chipset goodies. This handy dandy comparison is for that purpose:

http://ark.intel.com/compare/63696,...781,77912,82766,82931,82930,88195,92985,94456

But back to GeekBench. Gaming's not my thing, productivity is.

Would you ming putting up a GB score, there's a free 32bit trial.
 
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jake blackstone said:
I am not DIT, so I wonder how the Trashcan "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's"? How is having rats nest of cables and multiple enclosures can be helpful to portability and dependability instead of a computer, like HP Z820/840, that allows everything to be contained inside of that computer?
Click to expand...

Depends on the locations one is going, the size of the cart, the size of the production and its requirements. With an HP Z820 you would also need to break some components out of the box too depending on the production requirements. While obviously you can keep more boards, graphics cards, internal storage or a pcie card or two inside the conventional PC Box, it can be said with the trash can design you get a compact, performant solution that can grow in size dependant of the required scenario.

An example of why I like the Trash Can design: I've worked in a project that required an UHD finish and edit from footage from Red Epic Dragons/MX's and Canon C series, to be done in a 4 day shooting scenario, with 4 edited videos to be displayed in an international Gala dinner on the final day, which would then be posted for worldwide media online media distribution the next day (day 5) where proper color, audio and image tuning would be done. We had two Maxed out Trash Cans 12 Cores, one maxed out (ram) 8 Core, one iMac (latest 2015 model) with a Rocket X and two card dumping Macbook Pro Retinas, ,The Macpros where crazy fast and worked flawlessly , the 8 core one a bit slower obviously but the editor had no complaints, while obviously the iMac with the Rocket X presenting some hiccups but not enough to annoy the editor enough. It was an all Mac affair, with External Lacie Thunderbolt disks, and it all worked without a hitch. We were crammed in a very, very small temporary room, and I imagine how this would work with Huge conventional PC Boxes. The whole editing workflow was with the universal panned FCPX and final Color on Resolve. All I can say is that it was very successful and our client was delighted with the result- we are probably doing it again this year. (Hopefully with an 8K Helium on the arsenal if it comes in time!)

Yes, this was a very specific scenario. Recently I've had to use the services for some Color Grading for a TVC for International Broadcast. And 2 of the Color Graders I use here have Resolves on Trash Cans. One of them admittedly had an issue with the D700's and Resolve, but seems solved, but both of them are happy with the performance of the Machine. Some of the shops here are also running Smoke on Macpros. I'm no graphic artist, digital compositing individual beyond some basic after effects and I can see were much more power and expandability is needed for certain specific folks, but, I still see virtue in the Trash Can design, and can see a future update to be able to provide a solution for most of my working scenarios- admittedly not of the Highest, Hollywood blockbuster level, I admit, but demanding.
 
Good greif, I designed a micro blade enclosure methodology years ago, and was going to approach Intel or somebody with it. I'll avoid going into details, but its perfectly easy for them to design a machine that you can stack together and swap components in and out in seconds. Mine's a more conventional system, but you can physically plug and then physically strap them together to lock them, pick it up with the strap and carry it around.by the strap.,,if you only had a foldable solar panel and wind turbine module....

There has been lots of desktop bus proposals over the years for enterprise towers. This idea merely extends them using PCIe flexibility.

So, just going on this, a bigger trash for more pci-e cards and CPU's around the outside, recessed access on one end for card panel cable access. On the bottom stackable modules you can put 5 1/4 inch drive bay modules and panels, and small drives. Even a new wide PCI-e card standard. Anyway, also batteries for portability.

A 5 1/4 inch wide pcie module desktop bus, would allow manufacturers to offer modules that just slot in a tower in a second. Thunderbolt and thunderbolt optical main trunk from the desktop bus hub, is probably desirable to be part of this. Apple and Intel would find this a useful promotion of the TB. Now, the issue with PCI-e and TB, is a lack of physical PCI-e lines to support it. However, Intel has been working on chip level optical output for some time. This can allow a lot of bandwidth to be broken out of a chip with out incredible pin density. Then, a hub system cam.break out the lines. With a high end card you would prefer a optical line to it, however, to a simple desktop device, you might want a basic TB port coming out the panel. There are a lot of concerns there, the more basic the device the cheaper you want the solution to be, not a high bandwidth line. In my design work I break down the logical constructs to be comprehensive, efficient but low cost and simple to achieve.

If a new PCI-e wide standard was possible, then you don't need a much bigger MacPro, as long as the 5 1/4 system fits conveniently underneath. Now, you start with a basic can, mix and match what you want, and carry it.
 
Sergio Perez said:
Depends on the locations one is going, the size of the cart, the size of the production and its requirements. With an HP Z820 you would also need to break some components out of the box too depending on the production requirements. While obviously you can keep more boards, graphics cards, internal storage or a pcie card or two inside the conventional PC Box, it can be said with the trash can design you get a compact, performant solution that can grow in size dependant of the required scenario.

An example of why I like the Trash Can design: I've worked in a project that required an UHD finish and edit from footage from Red Epic Dragons/MX's and Canon C series, to be done in a 4 day shooting scenario, with 4 edited videos to be displayed in an international Gala dinner on the final day, which would then be posted for worldwide media online media distribution the next day (day 5) where proper color, audio and image tuning would be done. We had two Maxed out Trash Cans 12 Cores, one maxed out (ram) 8 Core, one iMac (latest 2015 model) with a Rocket X and two card dumping Macbook Pro Retinas, ,The Macpros where crazy fast and worked flawlessly , the 8 core one a bit slower obviously but the editor had no complaints, while obviously the iMac with the Rocket X presenting some hiccups but not enough to annoy the editor enough. It was an all Mac affair, with External Lacie Thunderbolt disks, and it all worked without a hitch. We were crammed in a very, very small temporary room, and I imagine how this would work with Huge conventional PC Boxes. The whole editing workflow was with the universal panned FCPX and final Color on Resolve. All I can say is that it was very successful and our client was delighted with the result- we are probably doing it again this year. (Hopefully with an 8K Helium on the arsenal if it comes in time!)

Yes, this was a very specific scenario. Recently I've had to use the services for some Color Grading for a TVC for International Broadcast. And 2 of the Color Graders I use here have Resolves on Trash Cans. One of them admittedly had an issue with the D700's and Resolve, but seems solved, but both of them are happy with the performance of the Machine. Some of the shops here are also running Smoke on Macpros. I'm no graphic artist, digital compositing individual beyond some basic after effects and I can see were much more power and expandability is needed for certain specific folks, but, I still see virtue in the Trash Can design, and can see a future update to be able to provide a solution for most of my working scenarios- admittedly not of the Highest, Hollywood blockbuster level, I admit, but demanding.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I am really trying to understand the attraction of having multiple enclosures connected by many cables, that can't even be properly secured on location. HP Z820 is not very big and I'm pretty sure with all hardware needed in HP vs Trashcan, HP will be a much tighter package. And what about the rendering issues with Trashcan? People are having to return it numerous times to Apple just to get the working ones. And did I mention the white gloves warranty support? None of that nonsense of shlepping your Mac to the Apple store. With HP you just make a call and the guy shows up next day at your place with spare parts and doesn't leave until it's fixed. With HP for a $1k I can pop in a couple of 1080s and it would smoke D700s, which by now are positively ancient and I can keep doing it for as long as I want. All my money is in AAPL, so I'm VERY pro Apple, but I just don't get the idea of Trashcan design. I think it is perfect for a graphic designer running some Adobe apps in the office, but on location doing some heavy lifting duties? Not sure about it and especially the statement about "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's", sorry...
 
Jake. Thanks for mentioning Super Micro, what a great range. The micro blade reminds me of something I was looking at doing, but smaller using non x86 units. I'm interested in making a system based on blades in future, but am having trouble finding who makes the most affordable systems. Would you know Jake?

Reminiscing:

I think we had a Supermicro around in the early 80's. Brings back memories, so many nice bare board computer manufacturers back then. If only CP/M wasn't so limited in those days, bank switching, long nested filenames and folders, 640*240+ 16 color graphics, upto 320x240 256 color graphics, character mapping and vector graphic support to keep menory under control, multiple i/o bus, api abstraction that would allow eventual windowing, would have made a good serious machine. Then again, I did work ecpereince at a place that sold Peaches, close enough. I did consider doing something to capture program code to enable windowing of cp/m programs and copy paste functionality etc. In hind sight one could have done it 10x better. Basic home machine a few Kilobytes (big memory then) character and vector graphics at least some basic sound, on board ram expansion to 16KB, 64KB, same chipset as bigger unit to save money. Bigger unit, 16k/64k latter, bank switching expandable to 128k/256k, I/O bus, built in terminal driver, HP serial bus (before USB, used on commodore Vic 20/64 etc. Swappable virtual screens and eventually windows, for each program. Such could have started in the 1970's. The only real issue, is a cheap VGA display, but the home machine would rely on a TV. The Commodore 128 did well despite the Amiga, on a similar capacity, without the extra graphics though. Amstrad similarly, but again without the extra graphics and I/O (used to have a PCW, loved that machine). BBC micro was one of the early home computers that explored bank switching and hi res graphics (I keep mentioning purely due to the need to do 80 column text). Those were the days.
 
jake blackstone said:
I'm sorry, I am really trying to understand the attraction of having multiple enclosures connected by many cables, that can't even be properly secured on location. HP Z820 is not very big and I'm pretty sure with all hardware needed in HP vs Trashcan, HP will be a much tighter package. And what about the rendering issues with Trashcan? People are having to return it numerous times to Apple just to get the working ones. And did I mention the white gloves warranty support? None of that nonsense of shlepping your Mac to the Apple store. With HP you just make a call and the guy shows up next day at your place with spare parts and doesn't leave until it's fixed. With HP for a $1k I can pop in a couple of 1080s and it would smoke D700s, which by now are positively ancient and I can keep doing it for as long as I want. All my money is in AAPL, so I'm VERY pro Apple, but I just don't get the idea of Trashcan design. I think it is perfect for a graphic designer running some Adobe apps in the office, but on location doing some heavy lifting duties? Not sure about it and especially the statement about "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's", sorry...
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I think most DITs are using the Mac Pro in this:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html

or this:

https://jmr.com/product/quad-slot-expander-model-ltng-xq-dtmp/

That then begs the question, can you get an equivalent PC based form factor for less money and the answer is yes, but some tools are Mac only and ProRes is just easier on Mac. I think some just prefer the overall experience with Mac. Whether that justifies the $10K+ price tag for the MacPro/TB enclosure combo, that's open to debate.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I think most DITs are using the Mac Pro in this:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html

or this:

https://jmr.com/product/quad-slot-expander-model-ltng-xq-dtmp/

That then begs the question, can you get an equivalent PC based form factor for less money and the answer is yes, but some tools are Mac only and ProRes is just easier on Mac. I think some just prefer the overall experience with Mac. Whether that justifies the $10K+ price tag for the MacPro/TB enclosure combo, that's open to debate.
Click to expand...

That's fine, but that still doesn't answer the question about why Trashcan is the "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's". What am I missing?
And I still don't see the attraction of paying $10k for Mac Pro +$7500 for RRX+ $2,299.00–$3,638.00 for one of the enclosures vs $4K for Z820 + $? for the Linux Resolve dongle. I get it, not everyone uses Resolve for DIT tasks, but still, one is non upgradable, underpowered, unreliable and very expensive vs the other, that will last you for many years while being much more flexible, reliable and upgradable...
 
jake blackstone said:
That's fine, but that still doesn't answer the question about why Trashcan is the "form factor makes this the dream machine for DIT's". What am I missing?
And I still don't see the attraction of paying $10k for Mac Pro +$7500 for RRX+ $2,299.00–$3,638.00 for one of the enclosures vs $4K for Z820 + $? for the Linux Resolve dongle. I get it, not everyone uses Resolve for DIT tasks, but still, one is non upgradable, underpowered, unreliable and very expensive vs the other, that will last you for many years while being much more flexible, reliable and upgradable...
Click to expand...
Apparently I wasn't completely sold either as I never personally bought one. I have used them many times though and they are fine but the rendering issue in Resolve did bite me on one project and i know others have experienced it. I'm open to anything that helps me do things better and more efficiently.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
Apparently I wasn't completely sold either as I never personally bought one. I have used them many times though and they are fine but the rendering issue in Resolve did bite me on one project and i know others have experienced it. I'm open to anything that helps me do things better and more efficiently.
Click to expand...

Hence the Resolve Linux:tongue:
 
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