New Mac Pro

[Jonathan Stevenson]

reading posts here on REDUSER it seams to me that we are never satisfied. Manufacturers always seems to come up short. We always want that something else. It is the same with the RED camera and now with EPIC/SCARLET. Great, but what if we had.....

I agree to an extent. I think there are some levels of Pro folks here that have HUGE hardware needs, and yes, their needs will never be satisfied. Apple will never create a computer with eight 16-lane PCI slots, or 8 Firewire ports, things like that. The HIGH high end Professional's percentage of the market just isn't large enough. Apple is trying to create a "Pro" level computer that appeals to the widest market, which is going to be your higher-end Prosumers, such as me. I'm very excited by the new Macs. They'll fulfill my own professional needs just fine. I don't need to run 8 displays or do insane 3D compositing or power a render farm. So I can see why, on this board, the new updates would be considered underwhelming. Apple just isn't interested in creating the BEAST computers that people here need, so yes, they may have to turn elsewhere.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

where are these new macs? nothing on the site.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I have been dealing with this Mac vs. PC thing since my first 128K Mac in 1984.It os soooo tiring to see it go on and on. Very, very few people are swayed by the arguments and it just gets tedious. I have my own opinion of both platforms but I have pretty much opted out of the arguments for the last 10 years. Does anyone here really think they are going to "win" this one? Doesn't anyone here get sick of this? :crazy:

Now, can't we just get back to arguing about Scarlet vs. vDSLR? :banghead:

(God no! Really, I was joking!!)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

where are these new macs? nothing on the site.

Click on the Mac tab and select the Mac Pro - there they are, big as life.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I have been dealing with this Mac vs. PC thing since my first 128K Mac in 1984.It os soooo tiring to see it go on and on. Very, very few people are swayed by the arguments and it just gets tedious. I have my own opinion of both platforms but I have pretty much opted out of the arguments for the last 10 years. Does anyone here really think they are going to "win" this one? Doesn't anyone here get sick of this? :crazy:

Now, can't we just get back to arguing about Scarlet vs. vDSLR? :banghead:

(God no! Really, I was joking!!)

Haha. I agree with you. It's a curious thing, arguing online.

 

[sbroock]

I think some of the disappointment is that from an editing perspective, the benefits of increased cores and slightly better graphics cards is rather minimal. Setting aside 3D programs that are core aware, the majority of the workhorse applications just aren't benefiting more than 14% or so from these new machines.

So it's sort of the cart before the horse.

Final Cut is really starting to feel long in the tooth versus other recent editing platforms and their support of 64 bit, streamlined multi format editing, etc.

I have no doubt that this upgrade is coming, but a Mac Pro refresh only seems marginally more useful until that time (again, unless you are doing 3D modeling).

Lack of USB 3 is disappointing, but agreed with other posters -- this just isn't going to happen with Lightpeak in the pipeline.

 

[Gino Papineau]

When you take so long, usualy there is a reason !
Probably a big surprise in september...
I bet on that.

 

[David Adamic]

where are these new macs? nothing on the site.

Tim, go to the apple store, click on the mac pro. On my screen in about the center is "New Mac Pro is coming in August". On the left is a financing offer, on the right a student offer.

Anyway, click on that and you'll be where you want to be.

 

[Shane Betts]

There's no "i" in Pro.

 

[Dustin Cross]

When the Mac Pro is in competition against a Z800

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/12454-12454-296719-307907-4050865-3718645.html

It comes up dreadfully short in a number of areas.

It looks like the Z800 is more expensive than a similar configured Mac Pro and the only thing I want out of the Z800 is the extra PCIe slots.

$3413 - Z800 w/ single 2.66 and 3GB ram

$2499 - Mac Pro w/ single 2.66 and 3GB ram


This update is not on the front page of Apples site, so I don't think even they think this is a big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a real update still coming.


Dusty

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

ahh, not in the store yet. thanks

 

[C. Jagan Mohan]

many comments looks like MAC bashing.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Can someone point me to a great Hackintosh system that avoids these issues without adding too many more?

Stephen

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well, that sounds like a long time ago. Perhaps you are referring to the very first Mac Pro.

Not entirely. Fact still remains that Apple debuted the 3.2GHz quad-core Xeons for Intel. They had the exclusive for over 30 days. This was in January of 2008. Still a long time ago. And yes, it's been all down hill from there... They were indeed late to the Harpertown party when they released those towers with the 3.2GHz option, but most of us forgave them since they hit it out of the park with the 3.2GHz exclusive. If you were buying a 3.2GHz model, you were happy... If you wanted the 2.8GHz or slower, then Apple had made you wait an extra 10 weeks for no real reason.

Apple has always lagged on GPU offerings. That doesn't bother me so much as the lack of selection. At times I wish the PC world would ditch BIOS for good and make the full transition to EFI. That would help. But Apple still has a death grip on graphics driver development and the related approval process. Although I think nVidia could and would offer a unified driver model for MacOS if there were enough of a market to justify full EFI on all nVidia graphics cards. Full EFI on video cards and most any PC peripherals is still a ways off... The whole backward-compatible mindset in PC land is taken too far to the extreme at times. -- Microsoft Extends XP support through 2012, WTF??? -- We'll still be running PC systems with conventional, legacy BIOS well into 2020 I bet.

Moving on to the 2009 Mac Pro in March/April, we have Bloomfield from Q4 2008

Apple actually didn't do too bad there. Dell and HP didn't start shipping Bloomfield Xeon systems until December '08, Apple shipped in January '09. PC vendors taking pre-orders 2 months in advance doesn't count as available. Bloomfield only entered OEM channels in November '08.

2010 Mac Pro - Gulftown/Bloomfield and HD 5000 from Q3 2009. Now, we are two-three quarters behind on the CPU, nearly four on the GPU.

We're only that far behind on CPUs if you're considering desktop class 6-core chips. Gulftown Xeons didn't start shipping until March of this year (which you already said that a few posts back) and realistically didn't even become available in retail channels until mid-April. I've built a few PCs around them and had trouble getting them before the end of April. So at this point, CPU options are one quarter behind. Technically just shy of 4 months. Yes, Apple is late (again), but the real problem I see is their timing in respect to what Intel is doing. Intel is stepping up their update frequency. Apple is slacking off on theirs.

The pattern is clear. Apple is falling behind. They might have had an advantage in 2006/07, but that is history.

Looks that way.

Edit - I just checked up Wiki, which has a decent history of Mac Pro's revisions. Pretty much supports what I have been saying.

It's fine, but in typical Wikipedia fashion, there's some stuff missing.

This update is not on the front page of Apples site, so I don't think even they think this is a big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a real update still coming.

I'm thinking the same thing. This is just a minor spec-bump. It's just about 4 months later than most of us were hoping for. What I'm really bummed about is the update to the iMac. They screwed the pooch with their GPU choice, but I digress...

We should still see a real Mac Pro update with the upcoming CPUs and chipsets that release in a couple months. What concerns me is that Apple will most likely take longer than necessary to release new systems based on them and could push it off into next year. Their update frequency has been in decline, on all their system offerings, over the past 2 years. But Apple continues to grow larger by the day and I think that plays a role. The larger you are, the slower you are to react.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Fair enough, Jeff. It does seem like the 3.2 GHz Harpertown released in Q4 2007 (http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=33088) but perhaps Apple had an OEM-exclusive. Regardless, it is a minor detail not worth arguing about.

I would personally really not hold out for a new Mac Pro within 3-4 months. Very unlikely. Even mid-2011 will be out of their typical product life cycle, but very much possible for a mid-gneration refresh.

I think the iMac's GPU choice is fine. The HD 5670 / 5750 are good options for casual gaming. They should have given the choice for HD 5800 for the avid gamer. Though, to be fair, the avid gamer is unlikely to be interested in a Mac anyway.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Not entirely. Fact still remains that Apple debuted the 3.2GHz quad-core Xeons for Intel. They had the exclusive for over 30 days. This was in January of 2008. Still a long time ago. And yes, it's been all down hill from there... They were indeed late to the Harpertown party when they released those towers with the 3.2GHz option, but most of us forgave them since they hit it out of the park with the 3.2GHz exclusive. If you were buying a 3.2GHz model, you were happy... If you wanted the 2.8GHz or slower, then Apple had made you wait an extra 10 weeks for no real reason.

Jeff is correct. I ordered the 3.2GHz 8-core the day they were announced. Needed an Intel tower for working with .R3D's.

Apple hasn't come out with a tower ahead of the competition since. Hopefully next time...

 

[Shane Betts]

many comments looks like MAC bashing.

Maybe. But you can bet that, if Apple had given us what we need, USB3, more slots, new nVidea cards - and a decent upgrade to FCS would be nice - we'd all be getting our credit cards ready.

It just feels like it's been way too long since we've had anything in the way of hardware or software that's addressed our needs. So many of us are Mac faithful but we feel forgotten. Well, that's how I feel.

 

[Andrew T Foster]

Hello,

The new Mac Pro's clearly demonstrate that Apple has other priorities right now. Two years later and all we get is a "stock" upgrade that does not answer some of our (at least my) most vexing needs. They don't even list it on the front page or have a "new" graphic above the image similar to the iMac pictures. You have to go to the Mac Pro page to find it and even then we don't have all the specs.

This is not Mac bashing. I'm typing this on my Octo-core, own several machines, worked at NeXT Computer in the 90's, blahblah (usual disclaimer to avoid fanboy nerd rage).

I wrote some of this last week when I was trying to figure out what was coming. Pardon some of the tenses.

Processors:

As far as we can tell from the limited specs, the processors are;

* Intel Xeon 5670 (2933 MHz, 6 core, 6x256 KB L2 cache, 12 MB L3 cache, DDR 3-1333, 95 W, LGA 1366) with a release price for single CPU at $1440.00 ($1459.00 at Newegg).

* Intel Xeon 5680 (3333 MHz, 6 core, 6x256 KB L2 cache, 12 MB L3 cache, DDR 3-1333, 130 W, LGA 1366) with a release price for single CPU at $1663.0 ($1723.15 at Newegg).

It looks like we are getting the 5760 as a stock option with the $4999 (gag) version with an upgrade available to the 5680. Why they
are keeping the previous four and eight cores around is puzzling. I have a feeling it's related to when they can ship the 12-core as that it's also dependent on 10.6.5 which is just being seeded to developers.

The processor selection looks fine. Let's move on to where I get annoyed.

Chipset:

The new Mac Pro is using the Intel 5520 chipset.

http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/321328.pdf

One of my main needs for the new towers is the implementation of four 16x PCIe 2.0 lanes. It would be amazing if Apple actually added some more slots but that possibility borders on insanity. When you are trying to jam two 16x graphics cards, a red rocket (working with RED RAW footage) and a hardware RAID card (such as a CalDigit HDOne or Pro), you need all the speed and lanes you can get.

A lot of server motherboards do not support four 16x PCIe 2.0 lanes for passing data at 16x. However the Tyan S7025AGM2NR uses two of the Intel "Tylersburg" 82X58 chipsets to provide four 16x PCI-e 2.0 and two 4x PCI-e 2.0 lanes.

http://www.tyan.com/manuals/S7025_Manual_v1.3.pdf

After examining the graphic Apple posted in the limited tech section, it seems they opted for the stock configuration of only on I/O Hub.

http://www.apple.com/macpro/features/processor.html

Once again we are stuck with the stock options for PCIe lanes - two 16x and two 4x lanes.


Graphics Cards:

Netkas was able to identify kexts (kernel extension - usually used for device drivers) for the nVidia GTX 480 and ATI 5850 & 5870 in a leaked 10.6.5 seed a few weeks ago. He's also been able to generate some new kexts that add support for the ATI 5970. Note that these new kexts do not work in the current Mac Pro towers with non-EFI video cards.

http://netkas.org/?p=465

It looks like we are getting the ATI 5770 as the stock card (certainly better than the GT120) and a ATI 5870 as an upgrade option. Of course they are only 1 GB versions while many third parties are shipping with 2 GB versions. As this is a workstation, it would be nice to have the best options for this kind of money.

There is no word on the nVidia GTX 480 or new nVidia Quadro options.

Some good news about video card support is that Apple seems to have acknowledged their shortcomings and are working to optimize their drivers after Steam was released for the Mac. This is the impression I'm getting from reading developer comments on the Steampowered.com forums.


USB 3.0

Regardless of Intel or Apple's new love affair with Light Peak (and hey I can't wait for it either), not putting any USB 3.0 ports in the machine is simply irresponsible. The standard is going to be around and in a lot of peripherals. External chassis for hard drives can already be purchased. Cal Digit is releasing a USB 3.0 card _and a custom driver_ with their new AV hard drive solution (www.caldigit.com). More than likely it will use the NEC chipset so we may see some early options to getting USB 3.0 onto our machines by utilizing their driver until other manufacturers (such as SIIG) follow.

Except.. that takes a very scarce PCIe slot.

While Intel doesn't currently support USB 3.0 in any of their chipsets and have publicly stated that they won't integrate it until late 2011, Apple really should have tossed two NEC chips into the motherboard and given us some ports. NEC is the main provider of a USB 3.0 chipset for motherboards and expansion cards but it's limited to only two ports.


Light Peak

Intel is dragging their feet on USB 3.0 in favor of Light Peak. At a Light Peak demo in In May, Intel's CTO stated that they expect hardware manufacturing of Light Peak to begin around the end of 2010. As I noted above, they have stated that there won't be any USB 3.0 silicon in their chipsets until late 2011.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/05/04/light.peak.can.relay.two.video.feeds.at.once/

Here is a summary of Light Peak for those interested;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Peak

This is an early video from September of 2009. In the video, they are demoing Light Peak on a modified Mac Pro motherboard. Clearly Apple has had an early interest in Light Peak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khPx1dEIPnA

In my opinion Light Peak is definitely part of the future but it's not going to replace USB 3.0.


FireWire S1600-S3200

One of the rumors before release was that a faster version of FireWire would be included with the next towers. Either FireWire S1600 and/or S3200 supporting speeds of 1.6Gbits/s and 3.2Gbits/s over the current 9-pin F800 connector.

I simply didn't see this as a possibility. I'm actually relieved they didn't DROP FireWire on a whim.

Two different companies have created development silicon for FireWire S16/S32 - Symwave on S1600 and Dap Technology doing S3200. Dap Technology has promised consumer silicon by late 2010 but the last time they issued a press release about a demo was Monday November 23rd 2009.

http://www.daptechnology.com/index.php?id=640

When you go to the 1394 trade association website, there is little to _nothing_ in their press section on S1600 or S3200 developments, chipsets, etc.

http://www.1394ta.org

This article from the EE times was from December of 2007.

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-...6/FireWire-turns-up-heat-with-3-2-Gbit-s-spec

Future FireWire upgrades are dead. If they abolish the port in the next refresh in 250+ days (or longer - agh) on the Mac Pro, I hope Light Peak has a "target disk mode". This is probably the most useful thing about FireWire in addition to the speed it provides.

..

It's disheartening to see the lack of innovation and implementation of current and cutting edge technology in the new towers. While I understand Apple is making the majority of their bank on phones and pads, it's a bitter pill to swallow. I consider their competitively priced pro software offerings to be the "gateway drug" for bringing more people onto the Macintosh platform - especially in the schools/universities - while the phones and pads provide a halo effect in sales for the traditional Mac.

The world needs content developers to provide all the crap that consumers inhale through their phones/pads/tvs, etc. With the "point release" of the last Final Cut Studio and the "stock" upgrade that these towers provide, they clearly have lost focus. Hopefully this is a short term problem and I'm melodramatic enough to scream doom and gloom and jump platforms. I think they realize that content developers need workstations that offer expandability and performance well beyond the common user. Now they need to step up with the next refresh to prove that they are still interested in serving developers instead of just being a computer and phone company that only serves the consumer.

I have been putting a spec for an excellent Mac Clone (I dislike the Hackintosh phrase - ha!) that will offer the stock options of the Mac Pro but answer a bunch of my gripes.

It won't be anything as nice looking as the inside of a Mac Pro, have a workstation warranty and I wouldn't deploy it in the field, but it will work fine in the studio. More to follow on that one.

Best,

ATF

 

[Tom Lowe]

I have been dealing with this Mac vs. PC thing since my first 128K Mac in 1984.It os soooo tiring to see it go on and on. Very, very few people are swayed by the arguments and it just gets tedious. I have my own opinion of both platforms but I have pretty much opted out of the arguments for the last 10 years. Does anyone here really think they are going to "win" this one?

To me, this is an extremely important and valid issue to discuss. Right now, Red is favoring Mac heavily when it comes to software development, which leaves PC users out in the cold, to a certain extent. If PCs gain momentum (which they very much seem to be at the moment), that could mean increased attention to PC software support from Red, not to mention increased options for post-prodruction of Red footage on all PCs, which outnumber Macs almost ten to one. So, in my mind, this conversation could have real-world ramifications, just like the discussion here some months ago about potential USB 3.0 support in the DSMC program.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Red really need to have a 50/50 PC/Mac balance as we use both systems. As does the rest of the world. But at the moment (Not tomorrow or 10 months away) the vast vast majority of us and our clients/post houses are Mac shops so thats reality that cannot and will not change overnight. Which is why we get so annoyed at "announcements" like this.