New Mac Pro

[M Most]

Their desktop sales have been in the toilet for years, this model will change things around out of fashion, and fanboyism, at least temporarily. But in the end they must pay the Piper, and offer better designed value or lower prices. However they decide to setup things, if it is not effective enough it is their responsibility.

Everybody's desktop sales are "in the toilet" because for most users, there is no reason to use anything beyond a laptop today. It's really only power users that need what desktops bring to the table, and even many of those users can do what they need with smaller form factors now. But none of that has anything to do with the conversation, because what I was talking about is the rather fanciful notion that people outside of Apple somehow know more about their costs, needs, and marketing than they do.

You might be a loyalist, that is defending the fan owned status, but in a market driven economy rather than a Royalty driven economy, your arguments are extra devalued, ineffective and illogical, Your arguments are not sophisticated enough, throwing up red herrings, there is more to it. So after I had already considered the sophistication of their position......

I am hardly a "loyalist" or a "fan," and if you knew me at all, or took the time to actually consider that there might be some intelligent people who can actually disagree with you, you wouldn't make such accusations. If you ever create anything that approaches the level of Apple's success, I might pay attention. But for now, I'm done. :angry:

 

[paul schefz]

Why shouldn't they because you don't want them too,? Their desktop sales have been in the toilet for years, this model will change things around out of fashion, and fanboyism, at least temporarily. But in the end they must pay the Piper, and offer better designed value or lower prices. However they decide to setup things, if it is not effective enough it is their responsibility.

So before you say "YOU" in capitals like it is a drawn out wavery accusation, that has been devalued by logic after the last time you used it, you got to think why you are saying it. You might be a loyalist, that is defending the fan owned status, but in a market driven economy rather than a Royalty driven economy, your arguments are extra devalued, ineffective and illogical, Your arguments are not sophisticated enough, throwing up red herrings, there is more to it. So after I had already considered the sophistication of their position, they needed to do more, at least what I said to rebuild desktop sales, but need to do even more as a loss leader to rebuild desktop sales. The days of earning easy foolishly spent money is drawing to the close for them, they are loosing ground in most markets. The big picture is the forest. and the most important parts of the ecosystem.

By the way, my 10% is net, after tax, not gross, which I would have stated, not the insane gross as you accuse. That is the sort of margin basis (10% maybe high, even 3% or lower) that real competitive volume companies, not Apple, try to follow on low priced But you don't seem to know that? Companies that want high margins try to set margins on how much they can get people to pay instead, divorced from costs.

Depending on how well things care done, they are likely doing 10% already, if they are including full version of a list of pro programs as suggested before (not me) then that would be nice (however how many they would do is debatable, as most people won't need every program and that is a lot of lost profits).

i am not sure what you are talking about...imacs, MacBooks, Airs, even ipads and iphones pretty much get great reviews from all sides incl best bang for the buck ratings....not just fanboys....and because of the iphone people are finding out more and more that apple products are made better then most other products, look nicer, work better (less headache and tinkering) and (and this is a big, big issue) have re-sale value unheard-of in computing....so yes...you have to spend a little more but you get a lot more....
nothing is perfect and that is not the point, but every time i really compare features and price apple/pc, the apple product usually comes out about equal....then add in osX, less headache and much better resale....i always get the apple product....was't always the case, 10 years ago that comparison looked very different....

 

[PatrickFaith]

On the 10 vs 8 bit on the screens, I know of a few major films that the rough grade was done on the apple cinema screens. Is also a great screen to do a "check" to see if your grade is going to work in the consumer market.

I personally can't wait to get a new mac pro, I will thunderbolt connect it to my mac book retina, and having a screaming 20 gigabit network cluster for practically nuthing (ie. the cost of a normal 10gig ethernet switch is more then the mac pro, plus i don't have to add 10 gig cards to my workstations & servers). I will use the mac pro as my stationary server that will hook to my linux farm, while the macbook pro's of the staff will dock into the mac pro via thunderbolt creating a subnet. I will use this 20 gigabit subnet for music and editing, and the linux farm for rendering & compositing (I also have a small microsoft farm for creating my DI, previs, and camera solutions). I don't think many people have worked with 10-40 gigabit networks, but once you move to the higher speed networks it is a game changer. I think people need to hold off their negative opinions of the mac pro if they have not used high speed subnets, at least the use of high speed subnets has certainly changed my mind on the subject.

 

[Jimmy Grewal]

Looks like Thunderbolt networking is promising, but the implementation in Mavericks is not trouble-free:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/10/os-x-10-9-brings-fast-but-choppy-thunderbolt-networking/

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Everybody's desktop sales are "in the toilet" because for most users, there is no reason to use anything beyond a laptop today. It's really only power users that need what desktops bring to the table, and even many of those users can do what they need with smaller form factors now. But none of that has anything to do with the conversation, because what I was talking about is the rather fanciful notion that people outside of Apple somehow know more about their costs, needs, and marketing than they do.



I am hardly a "loyalist" or a "fan," and if you knew me at all, or took the time to actually consider that there might be some intelligent people who can actually disagree with you, you wouldn't make such accusations. If you ever create anything that approaches the level of Apple's success, I might pay attention. But for now, I'm done. :angry:

I meant compared to others of course, the decline has been going on for many years and laptops are rising.

You basically disagree for the sake of disagreeing, and your arguments often are Swiss Cheese like. I don't like Swiss cheese.

The fanciful notion is that Apple both knows what they are doing and are getting it right always. I could argue that somebody just argued against the value of the Mac pro compared to a laptop, and therefore it should be less, but am not interested. Of course the argument for a convenient laptop replacing a Macpro is limited like sc.

M you are making sc arguments again, I should be the angry one. So try nit acting like you are justifying them. The important thing is if you ever could make a success like Apple, or do and come through what I've had to? I often only find people that challenge the truth rather than be a challenge. Few "intelligent" people around that can see past their own arguments.

 

[N_Villers]

Thanks Jimmy for the link. I wonder how long it will take to get TB switches on the market? That would really open a lot of new ways for shared computing that has always been for me the most exciting potential aspect of TB.

P.S. Wayne - please give it a rest. This endless back n' forth serves no purpose. If you don't want a new MAC then DON'T GET ONE. Going around and around saying the same thing 10 different ways is just annoying.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

i am not sure what you are talking about...imacs, MacBooks, Airs, even ipads and iphones pretty much get great reviews from all sides incl best bang for the buck ratings....not just fanboys....and because of the iphone people are finding out more and more that apple products are made better then most other products, look nicer, work better (less headache and tinkering) and (and this is a big, big issue) have re-sale value unheard-of in computing....so yes...you have to spend a little more but you get a lot more....
nothing is perfect and that is not the point, but every time i really compare features and price apple/pc, the apple product usually comes out about equal....then add in osX, less headache and much better resale....i always get the apple product....was't always the case, 10 years ago that comparison looked very different....

Thanks Paul. a more effective argument. But I am looking at Mac pro in particular, the IMac is a more down to earth competitor, though it to is lacking features I'm talking about, the double mint choc top deluxe ice cream of computers rather than plain vanilla with pink cone, that is what you pay money for. Time for Apple to pull stops out and justify their price. Except in software, any serious manufacturer can do what Apple is doing.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Look M, not much is a surprise to me, which is very bad, Apple on some products, just looks like a series of my old outdated design ideas and even other manufacturers seem to be going past. Apple barely achieves what I set out.

I still wonder if my work tablet GUI I doodled up in class nearly decades ago still outstrips what they do today, it requires a lot of balance to see the big picture right.

 

[M Most]

Look M, not much is a surprise to me, which is very bad, Apple on some products, just looks like a series of my old outdated design ideas and even other manufacturers seem to be going past. Apple barely achieves what I set out.

I still wonder if my work tablet GUI I doodled up in class nearly decades ago still outstrips what they do today, it requires a lot of balance to see the big picture right.

Geez, Wayne, it must be awfully hard to be such a genius and still have to deal with all of the rest of the intellectually inferior peons. Which, in your case, is apparently everybody. I really try to maintain my composure here, and I really try to be respectful of others views, but I must confess I'm really, really tired of hearing you talk about how you invented everything, know everything, and have some sort of a monopoly on intelligence. Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I really don't know of one thing that you've actually accomplished and/or done other than come in here and try to insult and belittle me and a lot of other people. So going forward, I'm putting you on my "ignore" list because, in all honesty and with all due respect, I don't really have any desire to deal with pompous asses here or elsewhere.

 

[Antony Newman]

I wonder what a Mac Pro will be in 5 years? A moonshot derivative ... or a US-surfer-town-named operating system with CCN516 fabric and an highly scaled open CL implementation in FGPA?

... This New Mac Pro may very well be my last x86 machine.

And when 32 core A57 CPUs cost OEMs circa $250... what will a Intel branch into?

AJ

 

[L. Langer]

I wonder what a Mac Pro will be in 5 years? A moonshot derivative ... or a US-surfer-town-named operating system with CCN516 fabric and an highly scaled open CL implementation in FGPA?

... This New Mac Pro may very well be my last x86 machine.

And when 32 core A57 CPUs cost OEMs circa $250... what will a Intel branch into?

AJ

It's probable that Apple will make an ARM-based desktop at some point - likely around the same time or after they launch a new Apple iPad with their own GPU - simply because there is a market for it in the "just good enough" segment. An iMac equivalent of the "smart tablet" desktops that are hitting the market would be a killer product for them to sell below the iMac, which is overkill for a lot of users who just like the OS and have minimal needs. It would probably be 18-21 inches with a Retina display, sport an octa-core ARM CPU along with Apple's own GPU, use flash memory for storage, have three USB 3.x ports and an SD card slot, wireless keyboard and mouse, and built-in WiFi with no Ethernet port. That would be the perfect low-end Apple desktop for a lot of Apple fanatics. Given Apple's turn to OpenCL for all of their media software, I would say that things will be optimized for such a product in 2-3 years, certainly 4.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

ARM-based desktops are coming and not just from Apple. Intel is getting into the ARM game too and there's a real chance that Apple and others may start using Intel for manufacturing their ARM chips.

Difficult to see where everything is headed and even the most seasoned industry watchdogs and analysts are wrong 90% of the time when predicting out more than 5 years. So on that note, here's my most-likely to be wrong prediction. I think the many integrated core (MIC) tech as well as GPGPU and stream processing will ultimately fold into common CPU designs. At least that is the path everyone is on right now. "simple" CPUs like the ARM design are proving to be plenty good enough for a great many users' needs and we could eventually see hybrid x86/ARM designs where "big CPUs" integrate powerful x86 cores atop smaller ARM arm cores and then tie to a GPU or MIC architecture with a few thousand 'stream processors' all on one chip. When fabrication processes start crossing into the 15nm and smaller realm, this shit is going to get real.

Apple is giving us quad-core 64bit ARM with dual GPUs on a single chip in a phone. No reason they can't give us 8 cores and dual GPU in a Macbook Air and 12 to 16 cores with quad-GPU in a Macbook Pro sized system or an iMac. These would be a compelling option for many. And that's only thinking ahead a year or two.

 

[Antony Newman]

Because ARM is core & core-interface focused - they've got Lego that is ~6% 'better' than x86, with a fabric that scales cores with greater ease than Xeon.

After a SoC with 32 x A57s @ 1.5 Ghz (ie 28nm process) with a coherent cache proves itself in the network space, I speculate they'll find their way into chrome books in 2015.

When Samsungs 14nm fab comes online .. I think Intel will cut a deal directly with a Apple ... by which time Apple on SoC GPUs will compete with bandwidth constricted GPU cards ... and that in 2018 Apple will move alway from x86 ... probably the same year that Microsoft release Excel on the iPad ;-)

Unlike your analysts that are only 90% 'consistent' .. my predictions are closer to 100%

AJ

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unlike your analysts that are only 90% 'consistent' .. my predictions are closer to 100%

Hehe… I sometimes say the same thing about myself. But I think we're on the same page with this one. 2018 may be a little ambitious for a move away from x86, at least on the top end of their product line.

 

[Eric Bowen]

The Hardware evolution from this point is tied to the move to Cloud based application and processing distribution. Since Nvidia has finally released a Virtualization based solution for Cuda acceleration to clients the technology is in place for the Media Content Creation market. This really is going to come down to the consumer and what they are willing to part with in regards to technological independence as well as what monthly subscription bills are acceptable ( thanks cell phones). What this means is the Mass Processing farms are on the way back. This will change the requirements even for niche markets allowing much lower powered client devices to be used for essentially the final evolution of thin clients. That is why Cell phones along with the processing chips are really the likely evolution path at this point. However like always there will be regions with limited network infrastructure along with customers who wont sign on to the cloud for everything concept. This means there will be a market for the current development of CPU's like the X86 to continue. Keep in mind those ARM chips wont handle Mass server processing farms. That line of development will continue. The Question there is will GPU acceleration change the CPU into a Co-Processor and the mass processing turn into endless expansion of video cards with 6 to 12GB cache ie ram. Intel from what I understand shelved parallel processing back in the 70's as not ready for prime time so that may come back to their R&D to compete.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Geez, Wayne, it must be awfully hard to be such a genius and still have to deal with all of the rest of the intellectually inferior peons. Which, in your case, is apparently everybody. I really try to maintain my composure here, and I really try to be respectful of others views, but I must confess I'm really, really tired of hearing you talk about how you invented everything, know everything, and have some sort of a monopoly on intelligence. Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I really don't know of one thing that you've actually accomplished and/or done other than come in here and try to insult and belittle me and a lot of other people. So going forward, I'm putting you on my "ignore" list because, in all honesty and with all due respect, I don't really have any desire to deal with pompous asses here or elsewhere.

Don't be too jealous M, I seriously did, and am tired of people that try to belittle and insult me then pretend that it was myself in all their pompousness, and their are about three or four of them, and they know who they are, with little reason, and very very and very light credentials I did start out redesigning all virtual hardware and os techniques with a purpose to new mass market products, not a couple hundred or thousands, but hundreds of millions, and deal with people working on billions, not a few hundred or thousands. I am very reasonable against a lack of sincere intellectual reason. I still get real engineers contact me and say what a fan they are. My engineer stepped out because a distinct opportunity to head up a billion dollar company in 6 months time came up, left field. But don't matter how much we prove to these people, they will always be course enough just to agree with themselves. They could try loving people, not making ridiculous arguments, and try to throw intellectual gold, it sticks better.


Thanks, lots of love and tried to get you to see reason.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

ARM-based desktops are coming and not just from Apple. Intel is getting into the ARM game too and there's a real chance that Apple and others may start using Intel for manufacturing their ARM chips.

Difficult to see where everything is headed and even the most seasoned industry watchdogs and analysts are wrong 90% of the time when predicting out more than 5 years. So on that note, here's my most-likely to be wrong prediction. I think the many integrated core (MIC) tech as well as GPGPU and stream processing will ultimately fold into common CPU designs. At least that is the path everyone is on right now. "simple" CPUs like the ARM design are proving to be plenty good enough for a great many users' needs and we could eventually see hybrid x86/ARM designs where "big CPUs" integrate powerful x86 cores atop smaller ARM arm cores and then tie to a GPU or MIC architecture with a few thousand 'stream processors' all on one chip. When fabrication processes start crossing into the 15nm and smaller realm, this shit is going to get real.

Apple is giving us quad-core 64bit ARM with dual GPUs on a single chip in a phone. No reason they can't give us 8 cores and dual GPU in a Macbook Air and 12 to 16 cores with quad-GPU in a Macbook Pro sized system or an iMac. These would be a compelling option for many. And that's only thinking ahead a year or two.

It's hard to forecast, not only the unknown comes up, but things don't go reasonably. I've had to learn a lot an awful lot over the years.

I deal with some cutting edge people and something I've identified is that when you run up against speed problems related to present process issues, the more compact the design the faster the signal can get around (in lay terms). So arm is smaller than an Icore, you get an advantage, particularly in low power (related to something else too) but it is how you use that power efficiently is the issue that can limit any advantage. However, there was s a much more compact processor than an Arm and the industry leading low power consumption processor I'm hoping to get a customisation on to great increase its efficient through put. But he reality is Arm has the head space and the other processor has not, doesn't make good sense, like debates, but that's life.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I wonder what a Mac Pro will be in 5 years?

Probably something like this :biggrin:

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The real competition:

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1180-the-hp-z1-all-in-one-workstation-review

They are so close to getting me to buy, all they need is a 4k version in a proper 32 inch display. I would even consider a 8k larger version if they had it.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/22/5133178/jony-ive-red-auction-sothebys-photos

Say no more.