New FCP in Early 2011?

[Oliver Peters]

I guess one of the things I would say is to be careful what you wish for. Right now FCS/FCP works very well. Granted, this is REDuser and folks here want more RED-centric features. However, in its current form - if you follow the recommended workflows - RED media and FCP are a pretty good match.

Whenever you look at wholesale NLE upgrades, there's a real danger of breaking what works along with alienating the user base. Avid MC5 is a prime example. This is a huge step forward for Avid, but it also has a number of bugs. There's also been a lot of whining by longtime Avid editors who just flat hate the changes.

The folks I know inside Apple Pro Apps are very aware that a lot of people make a professional living off of the FCS apps and they do realize there's a certain responsibility to these users to not go too far. That's one of the reasons DVD-SP was generally unchanged in the 2009 refresh. The question remains whether this view will prevail within Apple at large.

All in all, I think we'd be better off with a less revolutionary change that stays solid as opposed to a completely new approach, which requires umpteen patches to get right.

- Oliver

 

[Ben Brainerd]

I guess one of the things I would say is to be careful what you wish for. Right now FCS/FCP works very well. Granted, this is REDuser and folks here want more RED-centric features. However, in its current form - if you follow the recommended workflows - RED media and FCP are a pretty good match.

Whenever you look at wholesale NLE upgrades, there's a real danger of breaking what works along with alienating the user base. Avid MC5 is a prime example. This is a huge step forward for Avid, but it also has a number of bugs. There's also been a lot of whining by longtime Avid editors who just flat hate the changes.

The folks I know inside Apple Pro Apps are very aware that a lot of people make a professional living off of the FCS apps and they do realize there's a certain responsibility to these users to not go too far. That's one of the reasons DVD-SP was generally unchanged in the 2009 refresh. The question remains whether this view will prevail within Apple at large.

All in all, I think we'd be better off with a less revolutionary change that stays solid as opposed to a completely new approach, which requires umpteen patches to get right.

- Oliver

If this is what actually happens I will be ecstatic. A general-purpose upgrade, including 64-Bit and multi-core awareness would be awesome.

However, I keep hearing all the rumors about a 'unified interface' and such which kinda scare me. That and Apple corporate's (Seeming) shift away from Pro software and hardware make me less than willing to hold out any hope.

 

[David Battistella]

Is that why Pixar cuts their films on Avid Media Composer? ;-)

- Oliver

Oh Wait. PIXAR use AVID media Composer and that means it;s the best and there should be no other NLE because PIXAR is the best and they would never choose an NLE that doesn't work... BLAH blah blah.

Bad form Oliver.

The rest of your posts are much smarter and so are you.

Comments like this are useless and really drop the quality of a thread.

David

 

[Oliver Peters]

PIXAR use AVID media Composer and that means....

David,

Sorry if this was a flip remark, but I guess the point was missed. This was in response to Terry drawing the correlation between Apple owning two REDs and ProApps improving FCP as a result. I was drawing the correlation between Pixar (under Jobs' ownership) and their use of a competing product. Granted, that may have been a bit obscure, but the point was that there was no correlation between ownership by Apple (or related entities) and internal development. Not a matter of better or worse NLE features. Sorry if that got lost.

- Oliver

 

[Terry VerHaar]

David,

Sorry if this was a flip remark, but I guess the point was missed. This was in response to Terry drawing the correlation between Apple owning two REDs and ProApps improving FCP as a result. I was drawing the correlation between Pixar (under Jobs' ownership) and their use of a competing product. Granted, that may have been a bit obscure, but the point was that there was no correlation between ownership by Apple (or related entities) and internal development. Not a matter of better or worse NLE features. Sorry if that got lost.

- Oliver

You're still stretching, Oliver. I have periodic conversations about RED with a producer at Apple and my point was that they own RED, they shoot RED and the love RED. Oh, and they edit with FCP; imagine that! My point (a little closer to home, I think) was that they know how FCP works with RED - and if it doesn't keep working well, they care. At that point, I'd guess someone else within Apple might hear a few suggestions.

 

[Oliver Peters]

My point (a little closer to home, I think) was that they know how FCP works with RED - and if it doesn't keep working well, they care.

Sure, I can agree with that. I do believe they care and also care about pros in general. What none of us know is how much weight that carries within the organization at large. We'll see in the next 1-2 years.

- Oliver

 

[Ben Holmes]

Avid MC5 is a prime example. This is a huge step forward for Avid, but it also has a number of bugs. There's also been a lot of whining by longtime Avid editors who just flat hate the changes.

- Oliver

The changes in MC5 are not for the benefit of AVID users - they're already locked in. New features in the toolbar, and the drag and drop features are there to woo FCP operators, pure and simple. With the prices of AVID systems as low as they are now (next to overpriced Mac Pros) it will work too. Also - you can turn most of the new stuff off too, so there's no need for anyone to be upset.

I must admit, what worries me the most is that the next version of FCP will be prosumer in focus - like Aperture (which I like - but then I'm a 'stills' prosumer). Why? Because Mac Pros don't sell well, and iMacs and Macbooks do.

Apple has ALWAYS released software to sell hardware. They are not - in total contrast to Adobe - a software company at all. If the big systems don't sell (and why would they with the widening gap in prices between MacPros and HP workstations et al) then you will target your software at locking in those iMac owners, and racking up sales.

My point? I don't expect FCP to dumb down, but I don't expect it to add more features either for hardcore pros. How does 'scene recognition' or the 'trailers' feature in iMovie grab you? Randy Ubilos thinks it's awesome, and he's in charge of FCP now. I bet you see some more 'eye candy' marketing features in there people who've outgrown iMovie - same as the migration path from iPhoto to Aperture. Apple loves an upsell roadmap, and this one works. Another point - make sure the software flies on ALL your hardware to sell more of all of them.

I think it's far more likely we'll see a $300 FCS before we see a raft of high-end finishing tools added to the suite. Is it really that far fetched to say we might see the end of the Mac Pro in a few years? I don't think anyone would have believed the same of the XServe twelve months ago - but as Steve said "it didn't sell enough" (or words to that effect). And you don't need a Mac Pro to run FCS. Hmmmmm.

 

[Ben Holmes]

Just wanted to add how much I enjoy these sorts of threads. Informed speculation from interested and interesting pros. It makes a change from certain other forums I could mention....

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

but apple will sell hardware without providing the software.

a macpro/avidmc/davinciresolve/smoke system is cheaper than something similar on PC.....though you'll need 2 macpro's to run this software due to few pci slots.

if there will be something lime scratch/speedgrade/resolve for 1000usd for PC,
guess then a lot of people will switch due to cheaper and better hardware configurations.

right now, software on mac is more attractive, this can change fast.

 

[Albert Astorga Zepeda]

What????

What????

I guess one of the things I would say is to be careful what you wish for. Right now FCS/FCP works very well. Granted, this is REDuser and folks here want more RED-centric features. However, in its current form - if you follow the recommended workflows - RED media and FCP are a pretty good match.

Whenever you look at wholesale NLE upgrades, there's a real danger of breaking what works along with alienating the user base. Avid MC5 is a prime example. This is a huge step forward for Avid, but it also has a number of bugs. There's also been a lot of whining by longtime Avid editors who just flat hate the changes.

The folks I know inside Apple Pro Apps are very aware that a lot of people make a professional living off of the FCS apps and they do realize there's a certain responsibility to these users to not go too far. That's one of the reasons DVD-SP was generally unchanged in the 2009 refresh. The question remains whether this view will prevail within Apple at large.

All in all, I think we'd be better off with a less revolutionary change that stays solid as opposed to a completely new approach, which requires umpteen patches to get right.

- Oliver

DVD-SPRO has not seen any real or worth mentioning updates since 2005-6. YES 5 Years ago. when they implemented and later discarded HD-DVD Authoring.
Since when a Company does not release updates requested by many because they care about us?. Really?... do we need protection from our selfs? you make it sound like we do.! !

 

[Ben Holmes]

With the greatest respect Kaya, only a handful of the total userbase for FCS use Resolve or Smoke. The real choice for many is FCS on a Mac, or Avid on a PC. On that basis, the Mac Pro is an expensive dongle without a killer app. CS5 is the same on either system.

More important here is the Apple business model. It's proved with the XServe it's willing to drop poorly selling lines. I'm not saying the Mac Pro is the same product or as 'niche-y' as the XServe - but it's just possible for Apple it could be in a few years. Right now, I choose to believe not on balance. A 'prosumer' orientated FCS would change my mind - video is one of the few compelling reasons for a powerful workstation, outside of mathematical and 3d modelling - hardly a big market.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

With the greatest respect Kaya, only a handful of the total userbase for FCS use Resolve or Smoke. The real choice for many is FCS on a Mac, or Avid on a PC. On that basis, the Mac Pro is an expensive dongle without a killer app. CS5 is the same on either system.

More important here is the Apple business model. It's proved with the XServe it's willing to drop poorly selling lines. I'm not saying the Mac Pro is the same product or as 'niche-y' as the XServe - but it's just possible for Apple it could be in a few years. Right now, I choose to believe not on balance. A 'prosumer' orientated FCS would change my mind - video is one of the few compelling reasons for a powerful workstation, outside of mathematical and 3d modelling - hardly a big market.

what do i know?
probably you are right too

 

[Albert Astorga Zepeda]

you are missing the point. Totally.

you are missing the point. Totally.

Oh Wait. PIXAR use AVID media Composer and that means it;s the best and there should be no other NLE because PIXAR is the best and they would never choose an NLE that doesn't work... BLAH blah blah.

Bad form Oliver.

The rest of your posts are much smarter and so are you.

Comments like this are useless and really drop the quality of a thread.

David

The Point was... There has to be a Good reason giving Apple's Ego for them (Pixar) no to be using Apple's Software and probably Hardware neither... and a simple educated assumption would be Because it does not meet the requirements or does not deliver.
Dumm Analogy but here it goes: one would only wonder. Why would a restaurant owner would eat anywhere else but in his own restaurant?

 

[Scott Crawley]

The Point was... There has to be a Good reason giving Apple's Ego for them (Pixar) no to be using Apple's Software and probably Hardware neither... and a simple educated assumption would be Because it does not meet the requirements or does not deliver.

Given the fact that Pixar was founded more than ten years before FCP was even developed, I'd have to think that one possibility would be that Pixar already had a well developed infrastructure that was deeply rooted in another product.

According to wikki Jobs bought what would become Pixar from Lucas in '86 and their first feature Toy Story was released in '95. FCP 1.0 wasn't released until '99.

Dumm Analogy...

:iagree: 'nuff said.

 

[Robert P. Hogue]

it sounds unlikely but the past occurrences point in the same direction for Anything Pro From Apple.

Overnight Phenomena By Apple.
Do you remember A Company called Apple Computer?
Do you remember Shake?
Do you remember XServe RAID?
Do you remember Xserver?

I am with you on your frustration. Shake was an insanely great product that was neglected, floundered, and EOL'D. Xserve RAID was neglected, Apple could have went with SATA drives as early as 2004, giving users an upgrade path, instead Apple quietly discontinued the Xserve RAID leaving its users out in the cold for drive modules and parts. Now it's about to do the same with Xserve - another great product - running my SAN and Final Cut Server - otherwise I'd be stuck with clutter.

That being said, the link to Apple.com/shake pointing to Final Cut Studio leaves one to wonder - FCS is no replacement for Shake, and they've allowed DVD studio to languish after HD-DVD went as good as dead. So it leaves me to wonder what is going to be so great about this great new version Mr. Jobs is touting for release if there is no blu-ray support, stereo 3-d workflow, or native RedCode support?

I concur MC5, DaVinci Resolve is starting to look pretty tempting. Funny when Apple sets their mind to it they can write great apps - like Logic Pro.

 

[Peter Moretti]

... The real choice for many is FCS on a Mac, or Avid on a PC. ...

Ben just remember that Avid works very well on a Mac. It was orignially written for the Mac, and Aivd has policy of releasing MC features only if they can exist in both Mac and PC bulids.

So there is no functional difference between MC on the Mac and MC on the PC. And b/c Mac's are less of mixed bag in terms of hardware, quite a few people find MC on the Mac more stable.

 

[Albert Astorga Zepeda]

To be Competitive...

To be Competitive...

I am with you on your frustration. Shake was an insanely great product that was neglected, floundered, and EOL'D. Xserve RAID was neglected, Apple could have went with SATA drives as early as 2004, giving users an upgrade path, instead Apple quietly discontinued the Xserve RAID leaving its users out in the cold for drive modules and parts. Now it's about to do the same with Xserve - another great product - running my SAN and Final Cut Server - otherwise I'd be stuck with clutter.

That being said, the link to Apple.com/shake pointing to Final Cut Studio leaves one to wonder - FCS is no replacement for Shake, and they've allowed DVD studio to languish after HD-DVD went as good as dead. So it leaves me to wonder what is going to be so great about this great new version Mr. Jobs is touting for release if there is no blu-ray support, stereo 3-d workflow, or native RedCode support?

I concur MC5, DaVinci Resolve is starting to look pretty tempting. Funny when Apple sets their mind to it they can write great apps - like Logic Pro.

APPLE to be Competitive or play catch up with the rest of the pack would have to be as good as CS5 features wise. but of course we all know that adobe has not been sitting on their arsses... David has said in this forum that they are hard and heavy working on CS6. which only means FCS4 will no beat adobe and again it will be 2 years behind because apple has no clue what adobe is cooking up.
Personally, for me to seriously consider FCS again, it would have to have:
1) Full Blu-Ray authoring
2) Be GPU Accelerated
3) Have no Gamma Problems
4) Work Natively with R3D (multiclip)
5) Better App Integration
6) Work Natively with DSLR Footage
7) Fix Compressor
8) Be able to modify and reuse user/apple created DVD Menu templates in DVDSP with other Apps such as Motion or Photoshop or even better AE. like in Encore.
9) FCS Must be 64Bits
Other things that would keep me from forgoing apple are: But must be implemented in 2011

Light peak or USB3 or Fire Wire 1600 or Fire Wire 3200
Support for Blu-Ray Drives
The Standar 7 PCIe Slots for a Tower
But something tells me most of this will not happen in 2011. may be 3-5 out of the 15 will. they need to give slowly and a few at a time so they can keep us buying.
The Last one I know it hurts most of the people in here and it will probably never happen unless Jobs decides to give in and pay the fees for the other 3 PCIe slots. I some times have to pull cards out and install the one I need in order to continue to the next step with my work.

 

[Ben Holmes]

Ben just remember that Avid works very well on a Mac. It was orignially written for the Mac, and Aivd has policy of releasing MC features only if they can exist in both Mac and PC bulids.

So there is no functional difference between MC on the Mac and MC on the PC. And b/c Mac's are less of mixed bag in terms of hardware, quite a few people find MC on the Mac more stable.

Actually, there's a big difference - they use completely different file systems, and AVID on a Mac is not supported by ANY of the shared storage solutions except Unity ($$$$$) and Editshare at a pinch - so your SAN will a big problem. Also, with the PC workstation costing so much less than a Mac Pro, there's simply no reason to run MC on a Mac if that (and maybe CS5) are all you need. Speaking as someone who owns a number of Mac Pros, if I was investing in AVID I would simply add 10% to my purchase cost and by HP workstations to run them on, because it's a much better supported solution.

From a personal point of view, as my kits are hired and travel around the world I'd welcome not having to ship Mac Pros. It's a cost and worry I'd be happy to lose. On the other hand, I've been Mac-only for 8 years, so the idea of supporting PCs again terrifies me!

At the end of the day, if AVID and FCP systems cost about the same, and do about the same job, but one system has the support of more professionals, and vendors etc. that's where the money will go. Apple continues to disillusion a lot of people in the pro market. Their indifference, for me, speaks volumes about the company's future direction.

 

[Oliver Peters]

AVID on a Mac is not supported by ANY of the shared storage solutions except Unity ($$$$$) and Editshare at a pinch - so your SAN will a big problem.

You can run non-Avid shared storage on both Macs and PCs with MC. The general limitation is that these need to be volume-level and not file-level systems, although some folks are developing "multi-write" systems (Facilis). Lots of folks have been running Terrablock volume-level SANs for years on both Macs and PCs. Avid keeps an updated media database in the media files folders, so this would conflict with read/write permissions, if more than one editor were to have write permission to a volume. That's why volume-level SANs have been used with Avids since the very beginning. This also works with volume-based Command Soft FibreJet configurations. Navigating permissions is the main thing Unity controls in a file-level system. Granted, you can't run a cheap, AFP-based, ethernet shared storage solution, like with FCP.

Also, with the PC workstation costing so much less than a Mac Pro

I don't know about UK pricing, but in my experience, the Mac Pros are cheaper. That's if you configure an Avid-qualified HP against a comparable Mac Pro. Make sure that all items are the same (RAM, processors, FW 800, drives, etc.). This is without Avid hardware and without Apple displays. Admittedly this was comparing the 8-core MP against the z800 HP. Now that Avid has qualified the lower-end HP machines like the z400, the numbers could stack differently. But 8-core to 8-core is a good "sweet spot" to compare "apples-to-apples".

- Oliver

 

[Thomas Mathai]

APPLE to be Competitive or play catch up with the rest of the pack would have to be as good as CS5 features wise. but of course we all know that adobe has not been sitting on their arsses... David has said in this forum that they are hard and heavy working on CS6. which only means FCS4 will no beat adobe and again it will be 2 years behind because apple has no clue what adobe is cooking up.
Personally, for me to seriously consider FCS again, it would have to have:
1) Full Blu-Ray authoring
2) Be GPU Accelerated
3) Have no Gamma Problems
4) Work Natively with R3D (multiclip)
5) Better App Integration
6) Work Natively with DSLR Footage
7) Fix Compressor
8) Be able to modify and reuse user/apple created DVD Menu templates in DVDSP with other Apps such as Motion or Photoshop or even better AE. like in Encore.
9) FCS Must be 64Bits
Other things that would keep me from forgoing apple are: But must be implemented in 2011

Light peak or USB3 or Fire Wire 1600 or Fire Wire 3200
Support for Blu-Ray Drives
The Standar 7 PCIe Slots for a Tower
But something tells me most of this will not happen in 2011. may be 3-5 out of the 15 will. they need to give slowly and a few at a time so they can keep us buying.
The Last one I know it hurts most of the people in here and it will probably never happen unless Jobs decides to give in and pay the fees for the other 3 PCIe slots. I some times have to pull cards out and install the one I need in order to continue to the next step with my work.

Blu-Ray hasn't had the success of DVD. DVD was clearly superior to VHS and no competing format and people were willing to update their movie libraries.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD had the repeat of VHS vs Beta, while other people said why bother with either, when download/streaming is the new future.

Blu-Ray licensing was prohibitively expensive until a few years ago, there's a reason Jobs said it was "a bag of hurt" I've only started seeing indie films in Blu-Ray in the last year or so.


Apple backed HD-DVD and got burned, they probably want to move on to downloads and streaming, instead of backing another optical format.

I think people forget that Apple had started GPU acceleration with Motion. The problem is Motion isn't anywhere near After Effects, though it's still a good tool.

I'm in agreement about gamma shift issue. Apple has color management experience with prepress and photography, so I'm annoyed it's still an issue with video.

I hear the FCP and Quicktime teams develop independently from each other, so not all issues don't get resolved quickly.

Working natively with footage is going to be trickier, because FCP is a Quicktime app. I doubt FCP is going to change that anytime soon. Since the DSLRs mostly use H264, I'd rather transcode to a higher quality codec.

I hope app integration will always improving. I also think some of the best integration tools will come from third party developers.

Compressor is definitely a mess at times. I think Apple could buy a better tool than revamp Compressor.

Everyone knows FCS needs to be 64bit. It's a question of how long it will take to do it.

USB3 just came out, Lightpeak and Firewire 1600/3200 are just talked about alot, not sure when we'll see them. I'm thiking Firewire may not even have a future if Lightpeak comes out.

More PCI slots are always nice, but I always worked in an environment with multiple machines. I rather have After Effects rendering on one system, while editing on another, using shared storage.