New Compression Ratios?

[Christian Jadot]

New R3D ratios? Or simplified ones? How does all this work? Will the user not be able to select the ratio anymore?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Probably just simplified is my guess.

I welcome the change. I don't really dial in my compression ratios much, I either swing from absolute lowest compression possible to a happy medium. Anything beyond that, I just shoot ProRes anyway, but I could see the utility of a high compression .r3d mode for some.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

For me numbers (1:4) where allways more simplified than letters (HQLX)...

 

[Benjamin Jarvis]

I wonder if HQ is equivalent to 6:1 compression ratio since Weapon/Epic Dragon are Netflix approved cameras at that resolution/compression ratio.

 

[joshua csehak]

I just read that HQ is 512gb = 30 min, and MQ is 512gb = 50 min. This can't be true. Is it?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I just read that HQ is 512gb = 30 min, and MQ is 512gb = 50 min. This can't be true. Is it?

Seems odd. A 24 fps 6K HD Weapon MG recording time on 512gb with 6:1 compression is 82 minutes. A Red Ranger or Monstro at 6K 16:9 with the same settings at 3:1 compression gives you 38 minutes.
That would mean that Komodo is around 2:1, which is just not true.

I would think that it's 5:1 60 minutes on a 512gb card.

I've heard someone say something about the R3D being 10bit instead of 16bit, but I'm not sure if that is true, seems like a really bad thing if it's not even 12bit?

 

[joshua csehak]

Seems odd. A 24 fps 6K HD Weapon MG recording time on 512gb with 6:1 compression is 82 minutes. A Red Ranger or Monstro at 6K 16:9 with the same settings at 3:1 compression gives you 38 minutes.

Yeah, my calculations put it at around 2.5:1 for HQ and 4:1 for MQ. There's no way that can be the case. I'm looking for specs but it's hard to wade through all these posts. Maybe a sticky of all the current specs would be a good thing?

FWIW, I really love the way it is now, don't fix what ain't broke. But if you absolutely HAVE to move to a new system, at least give us:

HQ - 3:1
MQ - 5:1
LQ - 8:1
XLQ - 12:1
XXLQ - 20:1

Or something like that.

 

[Keoni AhYat]

Philip Grossman said in the 6hr live stream that he is using “Anglebird 512gb and getting 30min at HQ” and the rest said thats about what they were seeing.

 

[Phil Holland]

As far as I know for Komodo we'll have just HQ, MQ, and LQ.

REDCODE RAW is outstanding at user definable compression ratios, but I personally don't think people should be filming beyond 12:1. I know some out there do, but you'll be seeing a bit of a new focus on quality and simplicity.

DSMC2 and probably DSMC3 will still have a pretty broad range of REDCODE RAW options, but Komodo is going to be simplified.

By default in Komodo it seems to at the moment it goes to MQ when you first open it or update your firmware. In my case it's the first setting I change to HQ

 

[Michael Lindsay]

REDCODE RAW is outstanding at user definable compression ratios, but I personally don't think people should be filming beyond 12:1. I know some out there do, but you'll be seeing a bit of a new focus on quality and simplicity.

DSMC2 and probably DSMC3 will still have a pretty broad range of REDCODE RAW options, but Komodo is going to be simplified.

agreed and great news...

Also I understood Red had switched with Komodo to be DCT based compression? (makes sense from a power and decode cost POV) but if this is so then we can't really compare wavelets and DCT at the same ratios as they will not be the same...

 

[joshua csehak]

I personally don't think people should be filming beyond 12:1.

I vehemently disagree. People should be aware of the trade-off in quality and be free to shoot however they like. Particularly with the Komodo, I can imagine many situations where someone might want to leave a camera rolling for 4 hours. 12:1 saved my ass in January when I needed nearly 6 hours of roll time per day for an extremely low-budget project and I only had my two 512gb redmags. (The budget was so low that I almost turned it down, thank God I took it, given COVID!)

You're master of your craft, Phil. Most of my clients will not pay for a DIT, or even an SSD for transferring footage. If I'm looking at 1TB for not even two hours, my clients simply won't approve of me shooting RED. Definitely need a ~9:1 option, otherwise the Komodo is a non-starter. I'll just use DSMC2. And pleeeeease a ~12:1 option too.

 

[Phil Holland]

I vehemently disagree. People should be aware of the trade-off in quality and be free to shoot however they like. Particularly with the Komodo, I can imagine many situations where someone might want to leave a camera rolling for 4 hours. 12:1 saved my ass in January when I needed nearly 6 hours of roll time per day for an extremely low-budget project and I only had my two 512gb redmags. (The budget was so low that I almost turned it down, thank God I took it, given COVID!)

You're master of your craft, Phil. Most of my clients will not pay for a DIT, or even an SSD for transferring footage. If I'm looking at 1TB for not even two hours, my clients simply won't approve of me shooting RED. Definitely need a ~9:1 option, otherwise the Komodo is a non-starter. I'll just use DSMC2. And pleeeeease a ~12:1 option too.

Well you shot 12:1 I'm trying to express that people should likely not be rolling 22:1 if they can avoid it. It's also not clear if Komodo has the juice to do higher quality higher compression ratio stuff at the moment. Yes that does take processing power, though most don't think of it that way. DSMC2 still has big ass processors to do a lot of things.

But! I understand what you're saying. And know the fights lower budget productions have these days and offloadling to <$100 drives. It's also 2020 and 16TB drives have dropped and or reasonably priced at this point as the world of SSD expands. I haven't posted anything about it, but "cheaply" you can even roll 16 hours of footage on Komodo, hell I can do more than that if that's the goal even. I'll dive into that later though. Deeper topic.

16 hours of footage will still be a bunch of data, but I don't see much stopping people from filming long takes other than creative thinking and perhaps a smidge of case for more storage.

This will be something that will be hard to absorb for many, but generally speaking professional cameras will always have a higher data rate than things like H.265 or AVCHD or whatever, people in the Canon and Sony world have suddenly become aware of that as well. RED's internal compressed raw codec REDCODE RAW helps you save on your data footprint, which is good, and still gives you the RAW workflow and flexibility. How much can we get off of Komodo, which again is a tight ecosystem, unknown. At the moment though expect 3 ratios for REDCODE RAW because it's what we know. HQ, MQ, and LQ. If there's an SQ or or whatever, time will tell.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

As far as I know for Komodo we'll have just HQ, MQ, and LQ.

But the numbers don't make sense between DSMC2 and Komodo. If HQ 6K gives you 30 minutes, while Dragon 6K at 4:1 gives you 48 minutes, that would mean the HQ option on Komodo is way less compressed than any other Red at 6K?
That would mean that for anyone who shot 6:1 on Dragon 6K even MQ is higher quality?

 

[Gregory Karydis]

... 16 hours of footage will still be a bunch of data, but I don't see much stopping people from filming long takes other than creative thinking and perhaps a smidge of case for more storage...

I was debating the concept of a CFast to SSD recording option with a 4GB+ SSD attached.
I've got a project coming up where it would be cool to leave the camera rolling all day.

Googled the other day and turns out you can get a pretty decent 3.5" SSD with reliable data rates for a little less than 0.5K$, or go nuts with an 8BG external SSD...
Now, I will test the concept first with my Stormtrooper when it gets here, but I doubt I would trust it for anything other than a fixed camera setup where it just records something in a safe environment without a chance that the cable would move at all!

... At the moment though expect 3 ratios for REDCODE RAW because it's what we know. HQ, MQ, and LQ. If there's an SQ or or whatever, time will tell.

I'd call it CQ, you know, for "Cheap" Quality

 

[joshua csehak]

It's also not clear if Komodo has the juice to do higher quality higher compression ratio stuff at the moment.

Now that makes sense. I assumed it was the opposite, since on the bigger Reds you get more data throughput at higher compression rates. I really hope we can get 9:1. I guess we'll see.

And know the fights lower budget productions have these days and offloadling to <$100 drives.

Yeah, 99% of my clients hand me a $100 2TB laptop drive to copy the day's footage to (doing half at lunch if there's a lot). I've just recently (well, before COVID) started to give them 1tb SSDs that they can mail back to me, which fit ~4 hrs @ 9:1, covering 99% of my shoots. Doubling that gets a bit more expensive for me since I have to move to 2tb SSDs, but more importantly I know they're gonna balk at that much data.

I haven't posted anything about it, but "cheaply" you can even roll 16 hours of footage on Komodo, hell I can do more than that if that's the goal even. I'll dive into that later though. Deeper topic.

Curious to hear about that! Definitely a specialized situation though.

This will be something that will be hard to absorb for many, but generally speaking professional cameras will always have a higher data rate than things like H.265 or AVCHD or whatever,

Oh I think that's really easy to absorb! Especially when you look at the footage and it looks, well, cheap and digital. I've just gotten used to a certain data rate with the current Red system and it came as a shock to see that might not be the case with the Komodo. REDCODE really is under-appreciated, I first realized that when I saw that the compressed files in the C300ii @ 4k were the same size as my Red footage @ 5k.

(BTW, I hope I'm not sounding snippy! I'm pretty vexed over the DNC rigging yet another election today...)

 

[Aaron Lochert]

I've heard someone say something about the R3D being 10bit instead of 16bit, but I'm not sure if that is true, seems like a really bad thing if it's not even 12bit?

I believe that was from someone who had forgotten to select 16 bit in Resolve's project settings.

I'd call it CQ, you know, for "Cheap" Quality

Calling it SQ works just fine for me. Shitty quality.

 

[Phil Holland]

I believe that was from someone who had forgotten to select 16 bit in Resolve's project settings.

Correct. He messaged me after I told him how to setup his RED Camera Raw preferences in Resolve, which he had on 10-bit rather than 16. Subsequently he deleted the post.

Gotta watch it out there. Some people turn the light saber on upside down and will tell you it's broken after they severed their leg

 

[Matt Beardsley]

Interesting to have our compression ratios simplified a bit. I'm sure that clears some confusion away for folks who are shooting a Red for the first time (and Komodo will definitely be introducing Red to a lot more people I bet!) I do like to really crunch down on things like well-lit interviews I know will be delivered in HD anyway, so 12:1 or even 14:1.. but I know that level of compression has to be used only in certain use cases and is probably way too crunched for an official LQ setting that needs to be useable in a wide range range of settings.. but then again, media keeps getting more affordable and drives keep getting bigger

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I believe that was from someone who had forgotten to select 16 bit in Resolve's project settings.

:lol: This is why the world is overflowing with BS, people's bias towards their own sense of what is true and no epistemic responsibility towards others.

 

[Joesef o.]

I for one hope they expand these compressions, it seems they are trying to push for only high rates, which in the long run is not helpful to everyone. It doesn't hurt them to add a few extra levels 1:3, 1:6, 1:9, 1:12, 1:18 Thats not that big of a deal, just call it whatever names they want, but having 5 options would be a nice balance instead of forcing high rates for no reason. Their explanation was very lacking for saying in the future you wish you shot higher... In my case that statement is anything but true. Don't treat the filmmakers like babies, let us decide what we need. Switching between compression is a huge benefit with RED cameras, its a feature that is extremely useful to many, and to push such a small camera to very high rates dones't make much sense either for their market.

Anyway I hope jarred sees the light and opens this up for at least 4 levels if not 5 of compression, what does it hurt them any? It's some software tweaks, nothing more.