New Compression Ratios?

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Yes I would like an update on this as well.... I thought the whole point of utilizing cheaper CFAST media in Komodo was not to require (2-4) times as much of it to get the same compression ratios as a DSMC2 cam. I currently have been getting by with 2 x 480gb mini mags on my Gemini and I do shoot 2:1 compression sometimes but there are times during long interviews that I borderline need more media and I have been having to offload my mags during long jobs. I am thankful minimags have finally come down in price but I was holding off on getting more as I was hoping Komodo would be at the very worst "on par" with DSMC2 data rates or hopefully better in which I could pick up more CFAST (2 x 512gb cards for Komodo to start) and just use Komodo intercut with my Gemini as B-CAM rather than investing in more DSCM2 mags at this time as they will probably be obsolete once DSMC3 comes around. Obviously, there are still a slew of many benefits to Komodo (form factor, global shutter, REDcode at an affordable B-Cam price point, etc.) that make it really worthwhile for my workflow but this definitely is a concern if I am going to need double the media storage for Komodo compared to an already data hungry DSMC2 cam. Not to mention such an increase in data rates affects requirements for longterm external storage and the required volumes for SSD editing drives as well as I already max out 1-2TB SSD editing drives fairly easily on certain projects just with my Gemini footage alone. So I cannot imagine adding Komodo into the mix if it has double the rates of my Gemini.

Can anyone lock down data rates for sure on Komodo and how that translates into available storage / recording time on a 512gb CFAST card?

I agree the additional storage costs are a factor if the data rate is as high as it seems to be. But I think it's possible that all this will change with later firmware. Phil said that he's getting 1 hour per TB in HQ and 1h10 in MQ, which seems to me like a temporary implementation - why include two options that are so similar?

 

[kylebainter]

To me the greatest strength of redcode from dsmc/2 cams is the ability to get nice looking files even at 12:1 compression. Small files that still held their own.

With the current sizes of Komodo it seems they are selling redcode... except it’s not the one we are used to... I’d love to know at least the goal for the higher compressed Komodo footage. Run times def matter to me with a camera like this.

 

[J. Orlandi]

I have to agree as well. This whole “you will wish you shot it with lower compression” argument is frankly bull. Just let us have our options. There was nothing “complicated” about how the compression ratios were to begin with. I never heard anyone complain about having options. If they want to slim things down. Give us at least 6 realistic ratios. Not just MAX, MAX again, and LOW....

Data adds up quick and media roll out and swap on set is annoying and creates more downtime. Eats more time for the data wrangler, etc. All in all, we need more options than basically the just 2 we are presented.

I’m sure they will come around to it in later builds, but still I see this as the one big oversight in the software build as is.

 

[Phil Holland]

I have to agree as well. This whole “you will wish you shot it with lower compression” argument is frankly bull. Just let us have our options. There was nothing “complicated” about how the compression ratios were to begin with. I never heard anyone complain about having options. If they want to slim things down. Give us at least 6 realistic ratios. Not just MAX, MAX again, and LOW....

Data adds up quick and media roll out and swap on set is annoying and creates more downtime. Eats more time for the data wrangler, etc. All in all, we need more options than basically the just 2 we are presented.

I’m sure they will come around to it in later builds, but still I see this as the one big oversight in the software build as is.

It's good feedback for RED to see honestly. Somewhere between the perspective of having the flexibility of 2:1 through 22:1 is the proper answer.

Bare in mind, nothing on this front is set in stone, but what is happening is RED is hoping to simplify REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios while keeping people away from shooting crappy footage There's a bit more at play here too, but that's the general idea. You also have to keep in mind the larger cameras have very powerful processors to allow for good looking high compression ratio stuff, which is also a bit of why this isn't so cut and dry. It's actually easier to have lower data rates than higher compression ratios when it comes to encoding an image properly.

To RED shooters and the REDDCODE RAW indoctrinated, we know how to use it and absolutely have enjoyed the flexibility. But from a very realistic perspective, this camera is about to be put into the hands of people who have no familiarity with the RED ecosystem.

I'm betting we'll see some evolution here certainly as things get hammered down. Right now what's in there is HQ and MQ (and likely being tinkered with), SQ has been mentioned is planned, we just don't know much else for now. We don't even know what the hard data rates might be otherwise I'd update my tools by now.

Everybody certainly works differently and has different needs. Jarred's heard this for sure and can see this here.

 

[kylebainter]

I would love to know some goals or somewhat close to what we can expect for upcoming data rates that aren’t yet released... stuff changes, but if their lightest files are still 2x heavier than canon raw, it’ll be a deal breaker for me.

 

[Christian Jadot]

I would love to know some goals or somewhat close to what we can expect for upcoming data rates that aren’t yet released... stuff changes, but if their lightest files are still 2x heavier than canon raw, it’ll be a deal breaker for me.

Right now, at 6k FF running at 24fps 1TB is roughly 1 hour on hq from my understanding.

 

[Christian Jadot]

I really hope they lose the nomenclatures HQ, MQ and LQ. I know it is just a psychological thing, but it really deters other compressions other than HQ. (And sounds consumer-ish.)

CC- Cinema Compression
FC- High Framerate Compression
DC- Data Savings Compression

Especially if a client sees that you are not shoot "HQ" for whatever reason.

 

[yann LHENORET]

Bare in mind, nothing on this front is set in stone, but what is happening is RED is hoping to simplify REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios while keeping people away from shooting crappy footage There's a bit more at play here too, but that's the general idea. You also have to keep in mind the larger cameras have very powerful processors to allow for good looking high compression ratio stuff, which is also a bit of why this isn't so cut and dry. It's actually easier to have lower data rates than higher compression ratios when it comes to encoding an image properly.

Phil, are you saying that the camera will hardly be able to achieve compression ratios higher than 4:1or 5:1 (sorry LQ!) because its computing power is not sufficient or because this new DCT version of Redcode Raw is not as efficient as the Wavelet based Format at lower data rate and therefore end up delivering "crappy footage" ?

 

[J. Orlandi]

Phil, are you saying that the camera will hardly be able to achieve compression ratios higher than 4:1or 5:1 (sorry LQ!) because its computing power is not sufficient or because this new DCT version of Redcode Raw is not as efficient as the Wavelet based Format at lower data rate and therefore end up delivering "crappy footage" ?

I second this question as well.... If they are planning a LQ I'd just skip that all together if we give up our good middle ground 6:1 compression. Right now, what is it a 3:1 comp ?

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Bare in mind, nothing on this front is set in stone, but what is happening is RED is hoping to simplify REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios while keeping people away from shooting crappy footage There's a bit more at play here too, but that's the general idea. You also have to keep in mind the larger cameras have very powerful processors to allow for good looking high compression ratio stuff, which is also a bit of why this isn't so cut and dry. It's actually easier to have lower data rates than higher compression ratios when it comes to encoding an image properly.

I'm also interested in Yann's question above. If there is a processor limitation, does this result in us being limited to lower compression on Komodo, or less efficient compression, or both? Is it possible that LQ will be ~4:1 compression but will only be as good as DSMC2 8:1? Will we have to double our data rate to get similar quality to DSMC2? Can you see any difference between the current HQ (~2:1) and MQ (~3:1)? I'm guessing they are both pretty much visually lossless, but it would be interesting to see a wide MQ shot with lots of small moving detail.

And has it been confirmed that Komodo is DCT not wavelet?

 

[joshua csehak]

To RED shooters and the REDDCODE RAW indoctrinated, we know how to use it and absolutely have enjoyed the flexibility. But from a very realistic perspective, this camera is about to be put into the hands of people who have no familiarity with the RED ecosystem.

But if you look at the competition (s1h, a7*, canon c-series, etc), they have options up the WAZOO. A hojillion different codecs, gammas, compression types (all i, IPB, GOP, blah blah).

"How much compression? (2-22)" doesn't sound very complicated at all. Engineering-wise, do what ya gotta do, I get that. But usability-wise, I think it should be a range that starts at [indistinguishable from zero compression] and goes to [as compressed as possible that won't make Jarred throw his computer at the wall when he sees it], in increments of [whatever difference is reasonably noticeable].

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

I'm also interested in Yann's question above. If there is a processor limitation, does this result in us being limited to lower compression on Komodo, or less efficient compression, or both? Is it possible that LQ will be ~4:1 compression but will only be as good as DSMC2 8:1? Will we have to double our data rate to get similar quality to DSMC2? Can you see any difference between the current HQ (~2:1) and MQ (~3:1)? I'm guessing they are both pretty much visually lossless, but it would be interesting to see a wide MQ shot with lots of small moving detail.

And has it been confirmed that Komodo is DCT not wavelet?

Just read over on the Komodo Users FB group that the current ratios give 60min per TB for HQ and 1h26 for MQ, so perhaps Red has increased the MQ compression. Still curious if Komodo compression is different to DSMC2 and exactly what the compromise is. If we are going to need to double the data for the same quality (or if there is not going to be a relatively high compression option) the additional cards, storage and data transfer time need to be taken into account.

 

[Andrew Reese]

Can we please get an answer on this... With stormtroopers starting to ship, and purchase emails from Clark right around the corner, I think the REDuser community deserves an answer when it takes into consideration what form of RAW Komodo will actually shoot. If there is a difference between "REDcode-A" from Komodo and "REDcode-B" from DSMC2 cameras technically and legally speaking it should be made public knowledge prior to bringing a product to market and if there is a difference with Komodo's form of RAW it really should be named differently (i.e. REDcode-XYZ). At this point (6-pages later in this thread), it appears RED is dodging one of the most important questions that remain to be known regarding this camera.

I think these are some very relevant questions yet to be answered:

• Is Komodo REDcode RAW Wavelet or DCT based?
• What are the equivalent rates of compression in HQ,MQ,LQ (i.e. 2:1, 4:1, 8:1 etc.)?
• Will firmware address the currently available compression ratios in the future to expand available options or to improve data rates if they are not on par with current DSMC2 cameras?
• Will Komodo be part of the RED upgrade program when DSMC3 comes out? I know Jarred said Komodo "is not a DSCM2 camera or DSCM3" so does this mean it is a "one-off" and non-upgradeable at any point in the future?
• Is there potentiality for modifications to selectable frame rates and resolutions with future updates (i.e. 5k WS / 50-60fps or 3K WS flavors)?

I know the answers to these questions will directly impact many individuals choice to purchase Komodo but I think some clarity here would make people that may be on the fence to feel a lot more confident in moving forward with a komodo purchase. I would hate to see a mass majority of individuals purchase a Komodo prior to a release of full specifications to the general public to later find out the REDcode offered on Komodo is not exactly what they were expecting and the same as what they are used to with DSMC2 cameras. Sounds like a great way to get a loyal community pretty upset with a company due to a lack of clarity. Like it or not....

 

[Jonathan Keane]

I would like to know as well as this would be my first red camera. I've been really excited for this camera because of the redcode raw, the size and price. Mainly red code raw! I really hope komodo holds up with the big boys. I know it lacks frame rate and other stuff but I can work around that.

 

[Bob Gundu]

As I have a Komodo in hand, its very much REDCODE.

 

[Mike P.]

As I have a Komodo in hand, its very much REDCODE.

spicy.

 

[J. Orlandi]

But if you look at the competition (s1h, a7*, canon c-series, etc), they have options up the WAZOO. A hojillion different codecs, gammas, compression types (all i, IPB, GOP, blah blah).

"How much compression? (2-22)" doesn't sound very complicated at all. Engineering-wise, do what ya gotta do, I get that. But usability-wise, I think it should be a range that starts at [indistinguishable from zero compression] and goes to [as compressed as possible that won't make Jarred throw his computer at the wall when he sees it], in increments of [whatever difference is reasonably noticeable].

I completely agree with this statement. Most prosumer cameras have multiple different codecs and all kinds of things I STILL dont even understand fully like I-LongGOP and all these other weird things and I'm a professional working with major camera systems. So if the prosumer market is ok with all that stuff from Sony and the like, I'm pretty sure simple REDRAW compression is about as easy as it gets to understand.

Can we please get an answer on this... With stormtroopers starting to ship, and purchase emails from Clark right around the corner, I think the REDuser community deserves an answer when it takes into consideration what form of RAW Komodo will actually shoot. If there is a difference between "REDcode-A" from Komodo and "REDcode-B" from DSMC2 cameras technically and legally speaking it should be made public knowledge prior to bringing a product to market and if there is a difference with Komodo's form of RAW it really should be named differently (i.e. REDcode-XYZ). At this point (6-pages later in this thread), it appears RED is dodging one of the most important questions that remain to be known regarding this camera.

I think these are some very relevant questions yet to be answered:

• Is Komodo REDcode RAW Wavelet or DCT based?
• What are the equivalent rates of compression in HQ,MQ,LQ (i.e. 2:1, 4:1, 8:1 etc.)?
• Will firmware address the currently available compression ratios in the future to expand available options or to improve data rates if they are not on par with current DSMC2 cameras?
• Will Komodo be part of the RED upgrade program when DSMC3 comes out? I know Jarred said Komodo "is not a DSCM2 camera or DSCM3" so does this mean it is a "one-off" and non-upgradeable at any point in the future?
• Is there potentiality for modifications to selectable frame rates and resolutions with future updates (i.e. 5k WS / 50-60fps or 3K WS flavors)?

I know the answers to these questions will directly impact many individuals choice to purchase Komodo but I think some clarity here would make people that may be on the fence to feel a lot more confident in moving forward with a komodo purchase. I would hate to see a mass majority of individuals purchase a Komodo prior to a release of full specifications to the general public to later find out the REDcode offered on Komodo is not exactly what they were expecting and the same as what they are used to with DSMC2 cameras. Sounds like a great way to get a loyal community pretty upset with a company due to a lack of clarity. Like it or not....

I remember Jarred stating that the Stormtrooper komodo program is technically still a "Beta" program. So I dont think they have any legal or other issues with not posting hard information about the camera. It's an early adaption to a camera in Beta, and if you want hard spec numbers, most likely you'd have to wait for the black

 

[J. Orlandi]

I've heard multiple times from Jarred that Komodo has nothing to do with either DSMC product lines, and there for I don't think there would be any possible upgrade paths unless they come up with something like a Komodo FF (which might happen one day). But as it stands I see them clearly stating that Komodo is it's own thing.

I dont think you'll be able to get hard answers about anything from this Beta program of Komodo, framerates / resolution options im sure are possible to add, but you gotta remember they are still testing and tweaking these cameras even while we shoot with them for years, like DSMC 1,2,3. Komodo has less processing power than those lines so I'm sure there will be some limits and such, but thats to be expected for such a cheap camera system.

We will get answers slowly I'm sure, but I wouldn't expect a lot until most stormtrooper models are out in the world and they ramp up to black full production.

 

[Jarred Land]

Can we please get an answer on this... With stormtroopers starting to ship, and purchase emails from Clark right around the corner, I think the REDuser community deserves an answer when it takes into consideration what form of RAW Komodo will actually shoot. If there is a difference between "REDcode-A" from Komodo and "REDcode-B" from DSMC2 cameras technically and legally speaking it should be made public knowledge prior to bringing a product to market and if there is a difference with Komodo's form of RAW it really should be named differently (i.e. REDcode-XYZ). At this point (6-pages later in this thread), it appears RED is dodging one of the most important questions that remain to be known regarding this camera.

I think these are some very relevant questions yet to be answered:

• Is Komodo REDcode RAW Wavelet or DCT based?
• What are the equivalent rates of compression in HQ,MQ,LQ (i.e. 2:1, 4:1, 8:1 etc.)?
• Will firmware address the currently available compression ratios in the future to expand available options or to improve data rates if they are not on par with current DSMC2 cameras?
• Will Komodo be part of the RED upgrade program when DSMC3 comes out? I know Jarred said Komodo "is not a DSCM2 camera or DSCM3" so does this mean it is a "one-off" and non-upgradeable at any point in the future?
• Is there potentiality for modifications to selectable frame rates and resolutions with future updates (i.e. 5k WS / 50-60fps or 3K WS flavors)?

I know the answers to these questions will directly impact many individuals choice to purchase Komodo but I think some clarity here would make people that may be on the fence to feel a lot more confident in moving forward with a komodo purchase. I would hate to see a mass majority of individuals purchase a Komodo prior to a release of full specifications to the general public to later find out the REDcode offered on Komodo is not exactly what they were expecting and the same as what they are used to with DSMC2 cameras. Sounds like a great way to get a loyal community pretty upset with a company due to a lack of clarity. Like it or not....

I suggest you find a way to learn to ask your questions in a little less of a douchebaggy-i-am-a-lawyer-stomp-my-feet-wah-wah-wah- kinda way..... Your questions are valid and I have already addressed them but I'm not in the mood to deal with your expectations of entitlement right now. NOBODY should buy a Komodo if they are unsure about it, the specs are not complete yet as I have said 100 times and wont be until the black cameras ship and will change 100 times.

But anyways... Phil ( as usual ) shows how questions should be asked and answered, and I added a bit of insight over there. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?182627-Komodo-REDCODE-RAW-Explained