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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Color Grading Tool Coming to FCPX

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Some folks here seem unnecessarily defensive. I would never use these tools to replace a colorist, simply to do a better job myself when there simply isn't going to be a colorist. Sometimes small projects are essentially one man operations. We are not talking feature films here.
 
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@Marc and those who agree with him.... I am very disappointed in your thinking and thought process! That had to be one of the most backward thinking philosophies I've ever heard. In 2015, there's this ever evolving concept called "technology!!!!" . Designed at its core to make our lives easier , and more efficient. Fcpx's biggest advantages is its ease of use , and it's developer community . Getting editing done fast, quicker , and more efficiently . If a plug in or tool can make or editing jobs easier , and provide the same quality of work (and arguably better), for far less money, and less time (no round tripping ) .... Why NOT!!!?? If the quality CAN be just as good, why on earth not!!!?

unfortuntely for many, the train is moving and it's not waiting for anyone . all those who fail to keep up will unfortuntely get left behind . It's called technology. Embrace it. And embrace the fact that new technologies will inevitably bring to mainstream and consumers what used to be reserved for "the professionals "....

I don't doubt it will be possible to get a respectable primary correction with the plug in. The interface looks great and IMHO anything is better than that obnoxious color board. I really don't believe that the plug-in is meant to replace or even compete with a Colorist on a dedicated app. Therefore I don't think it is disrespectful to suggest that the plug-in isn't introducing any new technology that is superior to a full grading suite. The mini techno rant is misguided I think.


The issue isn't really one of tools at all it is one of time and skill. Even if you are an equally accomplished Editor and Colorist, you are not going to be able to do either job well if you don't get the time to give each process their due.
 
Jake and Mark,

Thankyou for your insights.

+) Do you think that Resolve editing functionality will be enhanced to the point it will obsolete FCPX?
+) Do you think BlackMagic Fusion's colour grading will integrate - or be replaced by Resolve?

Thanks,
AJ
 
@Marc and those who agree with him.... I am very disappointed in your thinking and thought process! That had to be one of the most backward thinking philosophies I've ever heard.
That's an interesting response. I think there's a point where you have to hire experienced people who know what they're doing, rather than trying to shoulder all the work yourself in a desperate effort to save money. I don't doubt (for example) that one person could serve as gaffer, electrician, grip, camera operator, DIT, and cinematographer... but wouldn't it be faster and artistically more effective to hire six people? God knows, the job of a director or DP is hard enough without expecting them to do everything else.

The same is true for colorists, editors, sound mixers, and VFX artists. At some point, you have to learn the art of specialization and learning to be good at one thing, or maybe two things. Trying to do six things will kill you, plus your project will suffer.

I concede there are zero budget projects (like student films and charity shorts) where there's no way to get anything done because there's just no time and money. But for any halfway serious project, there are ways to come up with a compromise where you do use outside talent. I've worked on $100,000 features and $75 million features, and everything inbetween. Even on the $100K jobs, we were able to do a reasonable job in a couple of days, far beyond anything 95% of most editors could do, and in every case there were huge improvements in terms of lighting and color in the final project.

As I often say: the advantage of hiring someone more experienced than you is that they'll come up with solutions and suggestions you'd never in a million years be able to come up with on your own. The benefit of outside ideas and information can't be underestimated, particularly when they solve problems you didn't even know you had.
 
Thankyou for your insights.

+) Do you think that Resolve editing functionality will be enhanced to the point it will obsolete FCPX?
+) Do you think BlackMagic Fusion's colour grading will integrate - or be replaced by Resolve?
My take is that Fusion is a very complex program on its own, and I hope it won't be absorbed into Resolve. As Jake has noted elsewhere, Resolve on its own still has a wealth of bugs and issues that have yet to be solved. It's a fantastic program for color, but it needs a lot of work and there are some additional features and refinements that I think will suit average users more than compositing and VFX.

I do think Resolve could be a functional replacement for Avid DS, essentially providing a full "finishing" capability in terms of onlining, versioning, titling, sound, and color for final delivery. But even v11 can't do some pretty basic editing things, like jogging through sound forward & reverse, which have been present in Final Cut Pro, Premiere, and Avid from day 1. I think they'll get there eventually, but I think there are advantages to editing in one platform, doing color in another, doing sound in another, doing VFX in yet another, and then putting all the pieces together in a different program. Trying to do everything in one place would kind of be like making a toaster/blender/refrigerator/washer-dryer: I guess it could be done, but wouldn't it be more effective to just buy five appliances?

The best reason I can think of -- both for hiring separate people and using separate software -- is that you can have multiple rooms with multiple computers, all doing work simultaneously but not interfering with each other. The sound guy can be cutting and syncing dialogue, the editor can be making choices about scene cuts, the VFX can be doing composites and other effects, the colorist worries only about image level and color, and so on, all happening simultaneously, all racing towards the same finish line.

I'm not sure if FCPX is a competitor for Resolve, but it will be interesting to see if BMD reacts to the Premiere/Avid subscription plan. That seems to be the direction the industry is headed.
 
I'm not sure if FCPX is a competitor for Resolve, but it will be interesting to see if BMD reacts to the Premiere/Avid subscription plan. That seems to be the direction the industry is headed.

Blackmagic is already giving away their software for free to probably 90% or more of their user base. There is no point to setting up a subscription plan.
 
The problem (or opportunity?) for adding a subscription plan to Resolve is that, as M has pointed out, 90% (??) of their user base is getting it for free. Some of those that might finally buy it for the occasional use will no longer do that but simply "rent" it for a month at a time, here and there. I think they would have to do away with free to to make that work and that might hurt their market penetration overall. Or, I suppose it could result in all these freeloaders to spend $5/month.
 
I think my original message got little lost.
My main point was, as a professional or even an occasional colorist, you'd be much better off learning standard industry tools, like Resolve. As a professional on any level, occasionally you will be asked to come over to the client's facility and perform work there. Most of the time, if that is grading work, you will be asked to do it on Resolve. Very rarely you will be able to bring your collection of offbeat tools, install them on a client's computer and start using them in the professional collaborative environment. Why trying to reinvent the wheel, when you can look knowledgeable and efficient using best available tools, that also happen to be free?:)
I have to be honest. It is no secret, that I believe, that ANY "creative" LUTs are pure waste of money. There are no "magic" LUTs, that will make your work look good, none. Long time ago I could have created a bunch of "creative" looks, packaged them as LUT's, gave them some fancy names, like GlassyLook, Cinelook, Luster Looks, Kojicolor and charge a lot of money for them. Anyone who tries very hard to sell those "creative" LUTs are pure money grabbers. Please note, not a single seller of those LUTs, including Denver are real working colorists. Because no real working colorist believes in using those things. They are just feel good pills. They will not make your images better, often they will make your images much worse. At best your images will just look dated and sad...
Start learning and using Resolve and, in the long run, you'd be much better off...
 
Jake and Mark,

Thankyou for your insights.

Do you think that Resolve editing functionality will be enhanced to the point it will obsolete FCPX?

Thanks,
AJ

Resolve has decent tools for conforming. Editing on Resolve is another story altogether...
 
...I concede there are zero budget projects (like student films and charity shorts) where there's no way to get anything done because there's just no time and money. But for any halfway serious project, there are ways to come up with a compromise where you do use outside talent. I've worked on $100,000 features and $75 million features, and everything inbetween. Even on the $100K jobs, we were able to do a reasonable job in a couple of days, far beyond anything 95% of most editors could do, and in every case there were huge improvements in terms of lighting and color in the final project.

As I often say: the advantage of hiring someone more experienced than you is that they'll come up with solutions and suggestions you'd never in a million years be able to come up with on your own. The benefit of outside ideas and information can't be underestimated, particularly when they solve problems you didn't even know you had.

I agree with all of that. but even $100,000 is alot...people these days are shooting films for $5-10,000 like Ed Burns and this movie called Layover for $6,000
Looks like he tried to raise $54,000 on indiegogo for 2 more films to complete a trilogy but it was a no go.
NoGo on indiegogo


http://nofilmschool.com/2014/06/joshua-caldwell-layover-low-budget-filmmaking
http://www.slashfilm.com/joshua-caldwell-layover-movie-interview-6000-budget/
 
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I agree with all of that. but even $100,000 is alot...people these days are shooting films for $5-10,000 like Ed Burns and this movie called Layover for $6,000...
And for the most part, they're going to get no distribution and will make no money. That is the sad reality of the indie feature business. Even $100K is a bottom-of-the-barrel level, pretty much at the SAG Ultra-Low level. You can make movies without SAG actors, but the reality is that distributors tend to only want to buy movies with actors who have some reasonable credits. And trust me, I know of actors who've done hundreds of films who would gladly work for a couple of grand a day. Some of them are really, really good, too.

I have to be honest. It is no secret, that I believe, that ANY "creative" LUTs are pure waste of money. There are no "magic" LUTs, that will make your work look good, none. Long time ago I could have created a bunch of "creative" looks, packaged them as LUT's, gave them some fancy names, like GlassyLook, Cinelook, Luster Looks, Kojicolor and charge a lot of money for them. Anyone who tries very hard to sell those "creative" LUTs are pure money grabbers. Please note, not a single seller of those LUTs, including Denver are real working colorists. Because no real working colorist believes in using those things. They are just feel good pills. They will not make your images better, often they will make your images much worse. At best your images will just look dated and sad...
That is sadly true. I like the ones who claim that major A-list features were done with LUTs "like these," when in truth those were custom LUTs built by the facility and by the colorist specifically for that project. I have no problem with those, but you can't buy them.

I know of quite a few reality shows and no-budget documentaries where the editor is the colorist, and he or she throws on a LUT here and there and yanks on some knobs just to get some kind of look going. The smart ones realize that they'd get better results by using a colorist and a professional grading system, but unfortunately there are a lot of producers out there who trip over dollars in order to save pennies.

My big problem with LUTs is how destructive they are depending on where they're placed in the signal path. If and when I get a few days off (I've been slammed this year, thank god), I'll do my little video dissertation showing how to duplicate the look of commercial LUTs within Resolve, just using a few test signals and some time. Luma curves, hue curves, primary controls, and qualifiers can move pixels around just as well as the tools used to create LUTs. I would much rather use a look that allows me to back off a little bit to give us more detail when and where we need it, as well as modifying it for certain situations (particularly when the DP needs some help).

I'm reluctant to say that the LUTs sold on the net are fraudulent, because I think the inventors mean well and they do have a market, but I do think they're being very misleading in some cases. And (as you saw on LiftGammaGain) I get fairly bent out of shape when people say, "hey, use this LUT with your camera footage and it'll look just like this specific Kodak emulsion." That's just total bullsh!t. But if they said, "hey, use this LUT with your footage and it'll look different," that's not quite as sexy. And yet that would be 100% truthful.
 
I'm reluctant to say that the LUTs sold on the net are fraudulent, because I think the inventors mean well and they do have a market, but I do think they're being very misleading in some cases.

If the person who sells those "creative" LUTs truly believes they work, because of lack of experience or they know that "creative" LUTs do not really work from the get go, does it really makes the difference to the end user? The end result is equally bad...
 
I have to say I feel the creative LUT theory is oversold. The fact is that even on professional well managed sets there would be no "LUT to rule them all" and there are situations when you have to build from scratch.

So selling a LUT as a magic bullet solution can be misleading. It's not, if the person using the LUT understands it's application.

I think people get caught up in one button solutions to be stylish or different or trendy, but its a bit tedious to see trending looks on absolutely everything, including most people. :)

battistella
 
If I may chime in here since this has all of a sudden became a discussion about LUTs and apparently my reputation. Let me first of all say that I admire and respect Jake Blackstone as a colorist. This couldn't further be demonstrated than by the fact that I highlighted his talent 5 years ago on one of my blogs: http://www.digitalcinemafoundry.com/2010/04/22/somebody-to-love-colorist-feature/

Furthermore I appreciated his insight on ACES and the challenge with LUTs as an end to end workflow.

We do have the ability to enable CTL (Color Transformation Language) in our app that is at the very core of Aces

http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/sci-tech-projects/color-transformation-language
http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/sci-tech-projects/aces

I have no need to defend myself as a 'working' colorist with a steady but growing clientele but what I don't appreciate is this attitude of elitism. I have always sought to share what I could and perhaps improve the experience for someone else but it is degrading and insulting to say one isn't talented because they "used a LUT", "blew out the highlights", "crushed the blacks", no wait, "milky blacks" and perhaps the biggest insult, "I like the Before better than the After." These are not always trolling comments I have seen over the years but people can be real *ssholes over subjective material.

I'd be happy to participate in this thread and reconnect with you Jake :)
 
From what I have seen the IMPULZ implementation of LUTS works in a professional post house environment being all things calibrated. That being said we have not done a film out with any of them with the stocks used as "print stocks" we have use the print stocks as a final layer to give the little extra oomph that looks pretty familiar to films that have been shot and printed with the same stock combos. Is it 100% accurate, not sure, my guess is hell no. Does it look good and get you well with in the ball park, well thats a hell yeah. It is by no means taking a shot at a pro colorist, but it can help any colorist on any level find a good starting point. Especially if there are stocks you know you like, it gets you in the ballpark of that stock... its a time saver... at least for us, as well as when we take work to larger color houses.
 
It is no secret, that I believe, that ANY "creative" LUTs are pure waste of money. There are no "magic" LUTs, that will make your work look good, none. Long time ago I could have created a bunch of "creative" looks, packaged them as LUT's, gave them some fancy names, like GlassyLook, Cinelook, Luster Looks, Kojicolor and charge a lot of money for them. Anyone who tries very hard to sell those "creative" LUTs are pure money grabbers. Please note, not a single seller of those LUTs, including Denver are real working colorists. Because no real working colorist believes in using those things. They are just feel good pills. They will not make your images better, often they will make your images much worse. At best your images will just look dated and sad...

Thanks for saying that. You nailed it.

I mean no disrespect to those who create or use them. I have just never understood how you can create a LUTs without knowing what you are creating it for. For those who believe it gives you a good head start...go for it.
 
Let me first of all say that I admire and respect Jake Blackstone as a colorist. This couldn't further be demonstrated than by the fact that I highlighted his talent 5 years ago on one of my blogs: http://www.digitalcinemafoundry.com/2010/04/22/somebody-to-love-colorist-feature/
Yes, that did happen and then, as i just told you in the private exchange, under a guise of wanting to learn, you had asked me to explain how I had done a certain image and then you immediately turned around and used it for another one of your blogs, along with one of my images as an illustration for that idea only to present it as your own idea without ever mentioning my contribution or giving me any attribution.

I have always sought to share what I could and perhaps improve the experience for someone else
Yes, for a price…
Let me see, two whole posts here… That's about right as far as sharing goes…
 
Denver,

This is a real names forum (even if I might know it is Denver Riddle)

Please submit your real name in the Real names thread in the RECON section.

In the meantime please add your real name to the signature file.

Battistella



If I may chime in here since this has all of a sudden became a discussion about LUTs and apparently my reputation. Let me first of all say that I admire and respect Jake Blackstone as a colorist. This couldn't further be demonstrated than by the fact that I highlighted his talent 5 years ago on one of my blogs: http://www.digitalcinemafoundry.com/2010/04/22/somebody-to-love-colorist-feature/

Furthermore I appreciated his insight on ACES and the challenge with LUTs as an end to end workflow.

We do have the ability to enable CTL (Color Transformation Language) in our app that is at the very core of Aces

http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/sci-tech-projects/color-transformation-language
http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/sci-tech-projects/aces

I have no need to defend myself as a 'working' colorist with a steady but growing clientele but what I don't appreciate is this attitude of elitism. I have always sought to share what I could and perhaps improve the experience for someone else but it is degrading and insulting to say one isn't talented because they "used a LUT", "blew out the highlights", "crushed the blacks", no wait, "milky blacks" and perhaps the biggest insult, "I like the Before better than the After." These are not always trolling comments I have seen over the years but people can be real *ssholes over subjective material.

I'd be happy to participate in this thread and reconnect with you Jake :)
 
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