New Cinema Lens Mount

[Gregory Gillaspie]

I'm sure many of us are happy with the options that exist now, but both PL and EF lens mounts are an antiquated design. If you take a look at what Panavision did with their Primo 70 series, it really is what should be followed.

A shorter flange distance was not possible with a film camera, or an SLR camera. But, our top lens mount options still use that distance. The glass that needs a longer flange distance is a good investment, but when is someone going to take the lead, and try to design a new professional system for digital cinema cameras of the modern and future day?

Panavision's new mount has a flange distance of 40mm, which is why they are able to have the insane speed of T2, while maintaining a 70mm image circle. For reference, Canon EF has a lens mount of 44mm, and Arri PL of 52mm. A shorter flange distance can allow faster lens speeds- because it is easier to concentrate light on sensor with a shorter distance. I personally think the Vista Vision/ Full Frame format is the most versatile when dealing with physics- but is limited by the current flange distance.

Imagine a lens mount that has as secure of a mount as PL, with electronic contacts like an EF. It's no secret that things are moving in this direction. More and more people will soon be pulling focus without a physical follow focus motor. This is something the Primo 70's also embraced.

Factoring in the OLPF space, I suggest a new flange distance of no more than 35mm- that can cover an image circle of at least 50mm. Old glass would still be adaptable to this new system. ALL your current PL/EF/F glass would still work with a simple adapter. RED being the major pioneer of new cinema standards should take this task on. This community can help them by speaking their mind of what they want- to work together to achieve images that were previously impossible. Help make the mount a reality, and the lenses will come. Let's start with this forum.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The problem is that there are so many really expensive lenses out there that will not work with a new mount and lenses are supposed to be a "life long investment" so to speak, since it's mechanics rather than software and electronics.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Yes BUT obviously only wirh a significantly shorter flange focal plane distance that allows easy adaption for PL lenses.. Say about 1/2 PL @ 26mm-30mm? That leaves plenty of room for an adaptor. If it was only reduced a tiny bit it is simply too much hassle. Rember PV had a additional motivation with the 70s because PV mount was 57mm which is even longer than PL

This would give lens designers a change to use simpler less retro focal lens designs .. Primo 70s are on paper amazing and I would love to know what they would cost if sold in the type of numbers masterprimes/s4s sell.

 

[Gregory Gillaspie]

They still are a life long investment. A manual lens is and will always be a manual lens. Many PL mount lenses can be simply adapted to EF because of the 8mm flange distance difference. A new mount would still allow almost all EF and PL lenses to work.

 

[Gregory Gillaspie]

The Leica M mount has a focal flange distance of 27.8mm, and you need a thinner OLPF design to mount Leica M lenses. 30-35mm I think is what would be best. At this flange distance- a full T/1.0 set that covers VV might actually be possible.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It would for sure be better if red could make the sensor mounted on a plane instead of in a pit, so to speak. Imagine if the sensor was not in a cavity of the camera but flush or just a few millimeters into the body. Then anything would fly in terms of mounts and flange distance. Possibly the sensor needs to be seated deep into the body for technical reasons. If not, then it would for sure be easier to have the flange distance built into the replaceable mounts and not so much into the camera body.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I like Bjorn's idea of placing the sensor not so deep into the camera allowing for more flexibility. Gregory's idea is probably inevitable as stills camera companies move away from mirror cameras and electronic EVFs become really good. Sony has already embraced this concept but Canon is still a big hold out. When Canon do come onboard and embrace the advantages of a mirror less camera design their enormous lens business will follow with shorter flange length designs along with all the third party lens companies.
When the advantage of these designs become obvious and ubiquitous in photography world the pressure is on for Cinema camera builders to allow customers to take advantage. Red is in a good position as one of their strengths is the ease and flexibility of their interchangeable lens mount system. Once the cameras allow shorter flange distance mounts the cinema lens business will adapt as this is a business that has become surprisingly competitive.
Keep in mind that no man is left behind and all the traditional PL 52mm lens designs are easily accommodated into this new world.

 

[Mike P.]

They should've done that with DSMC2 (made the sensor-to-interchangable mount distance much shorter)... but now RED is stuck with a long flange distance until 2020 (I think that's how long Jarred hopes DSMC2 is relevant for).

It's so simple to go from E-Mount (18mm FFD) to anything with full lens compatibility. Hell, it even allows speedboosters. Get an A7rII plus one of those Medium Format focal reducers and you're rocking a 42mp MF camera for $4k instead of $40k with increased lens sharpness and speed!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I'm hoping that Red doesn't change the entire design of the camera in 2020. I much rather like the new Ranger concept of having a shell that you attach around it. Reason being that all the accessories will be worthless again when the body changes once more. I'm not sure why we would need to change the body. I mean, yes, we could have new connections and such, but I much rather keep the modularity aspect to it.

The once thing I would like to see though is a fan-less camera in the future. I would much rather have a totally water-sealed camera body without moving parts.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

The once thing I would like to see though is a fan-less camera in the future. I would much rather have a totally water-sealed camera body without moving parts.

Now this would be KILLER.

Maybe even with the sensor block part of an unibody core (similar to the Alexa Mini)!

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

What about the Sony FZ mount? It has electrical contacts and has been used on the Sony F3/F5/F55 to adapt to PL/EF/etc for years. 19mm FFD and very robust.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Yeah, the FZ is great, I agree 100%!

 

[Gregory Gillaspie]

I've never used an FZ mount... I just assume that anything Sony makes has issues... But that might be a great option! Does anyone know the image circle it can cover?

 

[Minu Park]

I don't need anything

I just need

Electronic internal ND like FS5 + E mount system in Red

That would be end of MY DREAM.

 

[Asif Limbada]

This is what the lens manufacturer's are talking about, that FDTimes just posted yesterday. I quite like the F55's FZ system, makes more sense overall.

http://www.fdtimes.com/2016/10/14/mounting-questions/

Have a look at a review of the FZ mount on the youtube. Interesting stuff. I do not mind the camera a little bigger, if it allows internal ND. Sorry but the motion mount is just half baked.

If this system is implemented in future REDs (I have no idea if its licensed based or open), the fact Flange distance and overall Diameter exceeds anything out there. But its something that will allow lots of options for any kind of lenses vintage or future ones.

+1 for this honestly! And internal NDs starting from clear not .9

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I have just finished a neutral mount design for a customer. The flange depth on it is near 0mm. All optional features will be put into the adapters
OLFP, ND, LCD shutter, rear filtering, etc The neutral mount also has electrical contacts for the smart mounts I'm designing for them, quick release, locating pin, all included. I think this is the future- infinite upgrades, feature set options.....

 

[Asif Limbada]

I have just finished a neutral mount design for a customer. The flange on it is near 0mm. all optional features will be put into the adapters
OLFP, ND, LCD shutter, rear filtering, etc The neutral mount also has electrical contacts for the smart mounts I'm designing for them, quick release, locating pin, all included. I think this is the future- infinite upgrades, feature set options.....

Ok this is interesting would love to know how would this work! If thats possible?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I'm actually thinking of making it open source...not sure yet ;-)
In my almost 30 years with lens engineering I came to the conclusion that this is where it will all end up. Funny it seems Jon has the same idea. Got to call him....

 

[Asif Limbada]

I'm actually thinking of making it open source...not sure yet ;-)
In my almost 30 years with lens engineering I came to the conclusion that this is where it will all end up. Funny it seems Jon has the same idea. Got to call him....

Definitely, as this is something that everyone should be a little concerned about going forward. Good to know you are on to something Jacek! Just a quick question, does such a system require to be adapted by camera manufacturers?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Definitely, as this is something that everyone should be a little concerned about going forward. Good to know you are on to something Jacek! Just a quick question, does such a system require to be adapted by camera manufacturers?

If they want to use the same adapters than yes. All the adapters have the same communication protocol and the same connector in the back. And the same mounting obviously.
I just pitched the idea to the manufacturer I am doing a project for and they agreed to it. They supplied me the sensor board model and I went as close to "wrapping aluminum foil" around it as I could haha. If I had influence on the sensor board design I would probably make it even skinnier ;-)