New 6K Terra Camera: 6K for $5400?

[David Peterson]

If Kinefinity wanted to make some real money, they'd copy the Alexa form factor, use a 2.5K S35 sensor and put a fixed low-con filter over the sensor. They could charge much more than $6K.

They have copied the Alexa form factor, the Alexa Mini form factor ;-)

 

[David Peterson]

their target market aren't redusers. but rather those who cant afford red. with raven i dont really see why anyone would go with kinefinity tho.

I'd disagree they're not targeting RED users. As if you look at their recent survey from this year, over a fifth of their respondents purchased/used a RED Scarlet/Epic in the previous year:

http://www.filmaker.cn/thread-64664-1-1.html

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Wow, talk about a ripoff!

Red didn't invent a box with lens at one end and battery on the other.



Mike Brennan

 

[Sean Tierney]

A friend in the states has the Kinemini 4k and has good results. The sensor just wasn't there (in my opinion) on that version with chromatic aberration and such. Not to mention the workflow is no R3D and their "support" is no bomb squad :wink5:

With all the add ons on their 6k model it really isn't all that cheap and I would rather invest in a DSMC2 or even DSMC product. I wont be running out to buy one I think its pretty neat how far they've come...even if they may be using some well known design *cough cough*

In the end no one is twisting your arm to buy this over RED, it'll always come down to you.

 

[paul ross jones]

A friend in the states has the Kinemini 4k and has good results. The sensor just wasn't there (in my opinion) on that version with chromatic aberration and such. Not to mention the workflow is no R3D and their "support" is no bomb squad :wink5:

With all the add ons on their 6k model it really isn't all that cheap and I would rather invest in a DSMC2 or even DSMC product. I wont be running out to buy one I think its pretty neat how far they've come...even if they may be using some well known design *cough cough*

In the end no one is twisting your arm to buy this over RED, it'll always come down to you.

I thought Chromatic Aberrations were a result of the lenses? Not sure how a flat sensor creates them?

 

[Phil Holland]

I thought Chromatic Aberrations were a result of the lenses? Not sure how a flat sensor creates them?

There are optics in front of sensors. Typically Coverglass and an OLPF. There's also some additional chaos that can occur on the sensor's microlenses themselves.

 

[paul ross jones]

Red didn't invent a box with lens at one end and battery on the other.



Mike Brennan

this is an interesting size comparison. I'm not sure they have exactly copied a box shape.... I'm not sure how they RED form factor is a unique design. As you make things smaller, they will tend to turn into a box behind the sensor.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yes. Red cameras look like decades old cameras. In shape. no reason to be too annoyed.

The camera is too expensive for a Chinese camera, I wonder where the money went, srbsir, processing, cineforn, really low volume? Who owned this company, how come the cineform feild recorder got scrapped after we were told it was under way, how come go pro never did a cineform camera?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The challenge is not the 6K. They've been able to do that for a long time. The real problem to solve is the color science and the dynamic range. My observation is none of the inexpensive competing cameras (say, below $20K) can really do this yet. The Canons have their issue, Sony still has their issues, but once you get into the higher-priced cameras (Alexa, F55, Epic, etc.) then the image becomes a lot more usable.

Even the ursa mini + resolve?

 

[David Peterson]

Too expensive for a Chinese camera?? What are you on about.... it has massive popularity in China, which is the world's second biggest film industry now.

No wonder they're not bothering to market to western people properly when they're already flat out busy catering to their local market.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

new Red DSMC2 design.

Looks a lot like the Alexa Mini... which costs about $40k

 

[David Peterson]

Unlike the Alexa Mini which records to pricey CFast media, the Terra records to off the shelf SSDs which are hell cheap! :-D

 

[shashbugu]

Looks a lot like the Alexa Mini... which costs about $40k

Ha ha ha ha, this is like the Range Rover produced in China. Its an Arri knockoff. I think their other camera was a Red Knockoff. Theres a company in Germany that makes amazing commercials and shot flicks with Kines. I'll look for the link and post it. The IP ripoffs this camera has must be deafening. Buy at your own risk. But if you've survived on a GH4 or a 5D, this might just be for you. It might even force down the price of an Ursa Mini 4.6K. It would be really scary if the took apart an Alexa Mini and reverse engineered all the components. YIKES!!!!

 

[paul ross jones]

Why do you think these are knock offs?? the arri and the kinifinity are nothing alike, except for being a cube and having the some of the cables come out in the same place. Other than that, almost everything else is different. If these were cars you wouldn't say they were copying each other.

There is a reason why competing products start looking similar, its because they are trying to do the same job.

look at the difference of these two- you couldn't say they were copying each other, just trying to make the best solution for a SLR camera- but that solution happens to be this shape-

 

[David Peterson]

Exactly Paul Ross Jones, there is nothing revolutionary at all about putting a sensor in a box!

Or shall we claim RED ripped off the Brownie camera? LOL LOL

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Too expensive for a Chinese camera?? What are you on about.... it has massive popularity in China, which is the world's second biggest film industry now.

No wonder they're not bothering to market to western people properly when they're already flat out busy catering to their local market.

Think about it, unless you do something expensive manufacturing in China is cheap. Now what would you rather buy, one of the low end Red cameras, even a ursa mini, or this with Chinese warranty and support? It needs to be a bit cheaper is all I sayimg, as incentive, along with every one of their past cameras I've looked at. Now, I thought it probably would be popular in china, very nationslistic, and they probably find us as difficult to understand as them as far as buying non chinese products. But we don't here anything from the
To tell if they are limping or a raging success. What are the sales numbers. Popularity and sales can be different., though I doubt it from your response David.

Anyway, my questions remain, who is behind these cameras and this company?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Why do you think these are knock offs?? the arri and the kinifinity are nothing alike, except for being a cube and having the some of the cables come out in the same place. Other than that, almost everything else is different. If these were cars you wouldn't say they were copying each other.

There is a reason why competing products start looking similar, its because they are trying to do the same job.

look at the difference of these two- you couldn't say they were copying each other, just trying to make the best solution for a SLR camera- but that solution happens to be this shape-

Yeah, the Nikon looks more intelligent and the Canon looks like a moron with those drooped shoulders. :smile:

 

[Nicholas Austin Skinner]

Too expensive for a Chinese camera?? What are you on about....

Exactly

 

[Nicholas Austin Skinner]

You know, there are so many brilliantly talented filmmakers on this forum with vast, deep knowledge.

There is also an unhealthy dose of ignorance and prejudice about China. I've lived in China and Hong Kong for most of the last decade. You guys might get your minds blown if you would see the transformation of this rising superpower. Kinefinity is just one example.

If you want to know these cameras and this company, put your prejudices on the shelf.

 

[shashbugu]

The exterior design definitely seems highly derivative of RED designs. Kinefinity doesn't need to copy RED or ARRI or anyone else, yet they do. I live and work in China, which is of course a country infamous for flagrant IP violations. It's become less widespread since I first came here in 2006, although it's obviously still a cultural weakness.

When I say that Kinefinity doesn't need to do it this way, i.e., knocking off a RED DSMC design, I speak from experience with Kinefinity cameras. Our media company has the KineMAX 6K, which is built like a tank, has never had any errors at all, and produces some incredible images. What Nathan wrote about the KRW codec I think sort of misses the point for some users; I would find RED much more attractive with a less compressed codec, or even uncompressed DNG + ProRes Proxy (my ideal format). The Kinefinity cameras such as the KineMAX 6K and KineMini are not well known in the west, but I can tell you that I haven't known any users to have had many issues, if any, with their cameras. Kinefinity designs and makes excellent cameras, especially for the price. The whole RED knockoff thing is sort of a facepalm in my opinion anyway. It cheapens Kinefinity and makes them look less credible than they should be, considering the quality of their cameras.

I apologize if I offended you. We are not bigots.
Arri Mini ripped off Red Epic DSMC. BMD ripped off Canon 5D. BMD ripped of Red DSMC Canon C500 ripped off Red DSMC, Sony ripped off Red DSMC, Panasonic Varicam35 and Varicam LT ripped off Red DSMC. Kinefinity Ripped off Red, Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, BMD and GoPro. Red is amused by the imitation and flattery. Nobody has been able to pack the nuclear power Red has in that form factor. Kinefinity is violating international laws by creating a "4k compressed RAW codec" the patent belongs to "Drum Roll" Red. There's an army of lawyers waiting for the first dealer stateside.

To say that DSMC form factor is just a box and hole on one side is really disrespectful to all the designers and engineers who took over three years to rollout the ergonomics of and all the 11000 parts that make a Red DSMC camera work. Reds were initially made in China and I believe some parts still are. Saying its a Chinese KNOCKOFF is not bigotry, its merely pointing out the criminal intent of knockoff manufacturers. We all know there are innovative designers and hard working manufacturers in China producing original products. the word Knockoff used for Kinefinity has no malice behind it. And it will not affect the brand in anyway shape or form even if its a facepalm. Filmmakers don't care. We care about the build and robustness and the images it produces.