Never Buying or Shooting RED Again

[Steve Sherrick]

RED Support actually reached out to me themselves as it turns out, after seeing my post here, which was very kind of them to say the least! My frustration is simply the result of experiencing such a serious sensor issue with a camera that's supposedly "the best of the best" - at least back in the day - that also hasn't been used that extensively in the 5 years that I've owned it, certainly not in any hazardous conditions. At any rate, the RED team is examining the files I've sent them so fingers crossed my story ends on a high note like yours!

Also, I don't want to underestimate the frustration you have that you are in this situation. It's a lot of money to invest, so you want to feel confident that it will last as long as you need it to. Happy to hear you and RED have connected and hopefully there is something that can be worked out to get you up and running again.

 

[Sean Lovelace]

everyone should have their camera brain insured. its a no-brainer.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

It's not, I've tested the clips with both the current IPP2 debayering that squeezes more detail out and the "legacy" one, they're still there albeit slightly softer. The chart makes them more pronounced indeed because it's black and white, but even in the other clip that's more of a real-world test, they're visible at all times, they flicker different colors when there's a ton of contrast - for lack of a better term - around them and when they pass over more uniformly colored objects, like walls etc. they assume a similar tone. The moving footage tells the whole story, these screengrabs were just a small demonstration. That big blue cluster though does whatever it wants, for example, if I were to go back one frame from the one I posted, it's pure neon pink, even though there's nothing of that hue near it!

Really sorry to hear that, buddy. Don't know what else to say...

 

[Audy Erel]

This thread reminds me when I decided to invest in a RED Scarlet-W instead of another camera (or buying a new car) back in 2017. For me it was a lot of cash and I really want to make sure I picked the right choice. Initially it was a rollercoaster ride, the first unit came out dead on arrival with no image from the sensor. The second unit came 2 weeks later and was functional for a year until critical error codes begin to show up just as the standard 1-year warranty barely expired, but RED still repaired my S-W for FREE! Which is amazing (a mainboard was replaced, sounds super expensive), kudos to AV8 Media / RED Singapore for the kind assistance. I miss that country and the nice people, and the food. Now almost 2800 runtime hours and 3 years later the camera still going strong, it has paid itself off, leveling up my cinematography game (mainly in the post production/color grading area, thanks to the REDcode raw workflow), it helps me grow and open many doors previously closed as a hobbyist self taught cinematographer and a freelancer. Long story short, it was the right investment choice. And I hope this RED Scarlet-W will be with me for many years to come because the 5K DRAGON sensor is still a great performer. I'm sure RED will take a good care of you!

PS. This whole pandemic situation shall pass too. We can make it together. Stay strong, safe & healthy!

 

[Robert Hart]

You can come unstuck with any brand of camera product. If you can get support from RED for your cam, you are in a good position, albeit maybe a costly one. It would be interesting to see a comparison between brands for their failure rates proportional to totals sold.

I had a BM URSA 4K lay down during a winter storage period. Nothing I tried could make it wake up again. It was well out of warranty and I had bought it secondhand.

BM warranty replacement of faulty new cameras is really good but once the camera has become superseded and out of warranty, you are pretty much on your own if the residual supply of parts runs out.

Unlike the RED camera family, the gizzards of BM cams are not modular but almost entire assemblies which cannot be separated except for a subassembly with sensor/onboard audio, plug-in display screens and their control button sets. That makes for reliability in that there are few actual connectors to fail. If a motherboard or sensor subassembly goes down, it likely has to be replaced and if available, it is not cheap.

My solution in the end was to buy another broken URSA camera and take my chances melding the two in an unholy matrimony. Fortunately it all worked out fine.

My personal preference if I had your RED cam would be to seriously consider repair options RED may offer, now that you have their attention.

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

I had a BM URSA 4K lay down during a winter storage period. Nothing I tried could make it wake up again. It was well out of warranty and I had bought it secondhand.

My camera had been in storage as well, sitting inside its Peli case for several months (while I was away) before I powered it on after all that time and...discovered this issue. Not during the winter though, so no dramatic environmental temperature changes in my case.

 

[David Rasberry]

Before people start asking if I had blackshaded the camera, which on this forum appears to be the recommended solution even if a camera was literally on fire, here is the full procedure I followed, to no avail:

-Several blackshade calibrations, even at different temperatures (my preferred one is 65C but I went lower as well)

I am coming to this late, but if the 65C refers to the internal temperature of the camera, you may have accidentally contributed to the problem. Operating temps above about 60C for extended periods can damage silicon sensors.

I learned of this when we got a service bulletin on our Digital Bolexes regarding an early failure mode for the internal SSD. After capacity drops about 10% with age it keeps working as normal but gets much hotter. The test was to turn the camera on with full fans and let it sit for 15 minutes. If the operating temp stabilized around 60C, then the drive needed to be replaced to avoid thermal damage to the sensor, which shows up as hot or dead pixels. Normal is in the 50C range. Yours may have deteriorated in storage after damage from overheating.

We are talking about two different cameras, but silicon is silicon. Only Red could determine if this is an issue in your case, but the dead pixels could possibly be mapped out with a sensor recal.

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

I am coming to this late, but if the 65C refers to the internal temperature of the camera, you may have accidentally contributed to the problem. Operating temps above about 60C for extended periods can damage silicon sensors.

I learned of this when we got a service bulletin on our Digital Bolexes regarding an early failure mode for the internal SSD. After capacity drops about 10% with age it keeps working as normal but gets much hotter. The test was to turn the camera on with full fans and let it sit for 15 minutes. If the operating temp stabilized around 60C, then the drive needed to be replaced to avoid thermal damage to the sensor, which shows up as hot or dead pixels. Normal is in the 50C range. Yours may have deteriorated in storage after damage from overheating.

We are talking about two different cameras, but silicon is silicon. Only Red could determine if this is an issue in your case, but the dead pixels could possibly be mapped out with a sensor recal.

Well 65C is the default temperature for the Adaptive Fan mode and it's pretty much what I've been going with since I bought the camera, which corresponds to a Sensor Temperature of 47-48C in my case, though on a few occasions I've set it to the max (70C interna resulting in 51C for the sensor) which was still barely usable for clean audio and ambient temperature wasn't anything remotely outrageous. I don't know about DSMC-2 temperatures, I've heard defaults are much lower, but on DSMC-1 there's no way in the world you can maintain a 50C internal temperature without the fans near full blast all the time, that would not be usable for any kind of narrative work. All the more reason I'm leaving the RED ecosystem behind, had just about enough of their "cooling solution"...

 

[David Rasberry]

Well 65C is the default temperature for the Adaptive Fan mode and it's pretty much what I've been going with since I bought the camera, which corresponds to a Sensor Temperature of 47-48C in my case, though on a few occasions I've set it to the max (70C interna resulting in 51C for the sensor) which was still barely usable for clean audio and ambient temperature wasn't anything remotely outrageous. I don't know about DSMC-2 temperatures, I've heard defaults are much lower, but on DSMC-1 there's no way in the world you can maintain a 50C internal temperature without the fans near full blast all the time, that would not be usable for any kind of narrative work. All the more reason I'm leaving the RED ecosystem behind, had just about enough of their "cooling solution"...

Temp shouldn't be an issue then.

 

[TrevorBarnes]

I completely understand your frustration! I do agree with what others have said though, all manufacturers have these type of issues time to time. Funny enough I have had similar issues with brand new cameras dead on arrival however my old Red One MX is still working perfectly fine after being 10 plus years old. Red’s customer service seems to be stellar so I hope it all works out for you. Please post an update when there is a conclusion to your issue.

 

[Benjamin Reece]

So what was the end of this story? I'm guessing RED offered to repair and it had a good ending that we didn't get to hear

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

So what was the end of this story? I'm guessing RED offered to repair and it had a good ending that we didn't get to hear

RED did indeed offer to evaluate and repair, which is very gracious to say the least, considering the Epic Dragon is a fairly old model at this point, however I haven't yet decided if/when I'll proceed. RED's tech support is stellar, there's no debate there, the technicians I spoke with were immensely helpful, alas, my initial thoughts on the camera itself in terms of its build quality and reliability as an electronic device haven't shifted. It was an impulsive decision on my end to buy it when I did all those years ago, so I remain sceptical when it comes to putting even more money into it. The market has changed immensely in the last few years and so have the projects I'm interested in working on, so I have to make educated decisions moving forward.

 

[Dennis Hingsberg]

I came here to sell some Tiffen filters and strangely ended up here and reading this entire thread.

Now I too need to know --- did you send the camera in or not? I think you should, RED is a magical company and will do magic on your camera for sure and I bet surprise you in the end.

Let us know !

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

RED did indeed offer to evaluate and repair, which is very gracious to say the least, considering the Epic Dragon is a fairly old model at this point, however I haven't yet decided if/when I'll proceed. RED's tech support is stellar, there's no debate there, the technicians I spoke with were immensely helpful, alas, my initial thoughts on the camera itself in terms of its build quality and reliability as an electronic device haven't shifted. It was an impulsive decision on my end to buy it when I did all those years ago, so I remain sceptical when it comes to putting even more money into it. The market has changed immensely in the last few years and so have the projects I'm interested in working on, so I have to make educated decisions moving forward.

Definitely send it in! It could end up being something much more simple/inexpensive than a sensor replacement and even if it is in need of a new sensor, I’ve found these big camera manufactures can be sympathetic to situations your in and do take into consideration the bad luck of this extremely rare issue and can offer big discounts. Best of luck!

 

[Aris_Gavriilidis]

Thought I should give my post some closure. Although I have noticed that RED officially discontinued DSMC-1 DRAGON repairs on December the 10th, I wasn't going to go ahead with a repair regardless. I had a lot of time to think about it, the amount it'd require could buy me a fully-accessorised kit on eBay and even if I did opt to repair for some odd reason, there'd be no guarantee that dead pixels wouldn't appear again and the 90-day warranty offered after repairs I find laughable at this price range. But all that is besides the point - beautiful images as it makes, the EPIC DRAGON is an old platform, outclassed in every respect by some of the most affordable cameras on the market today. The demand for the RED brand here in Greece has dwindled as well, reasons which I believe ultimately prevented me from making the same mistake twice and pouring even more cash into a camera I perhaps shouldn't have bought in the first place.

I won't be moving to a new platform yet however, at least not as an owner. With the help of After Effects' phenomenal content-aware fill tools, I'll keep on shooting the camera for as long as I can/need.

I sure learned an important lesson though and if I ever invest that much money into a camera down the line, I won't keep it past the end of its warranty period.

This brand might have lost me for good as a customer, but the fantastic support team and the community here on Reduser still have my thanks!

Best of luck in your creative endeavours,

Aris

 

[Amanda Griffin]

Sadly, right now, Youtube is where the money is.

 

[Maira Fravel]

Quailty videos have an edge over tons on YT. Some are just of low quality but maybe they're just starting.