Need help on moving to Protools for a feature

[PatrickFaith]

I'm thinking of moving back to Protools, this is my first feature and the tools I use for shorts/corporate stuff just are not cutting it. I am also debating stereo vs 5.1 for the DCP ( do people mainly do stereo for indie movies, do I really need 5.1 6 channel dcp for a low budget movie?).

I like what I'm hearing about protools 10 and 11 looks insanely good, but really i'm not competent enough really to compare products(i just know the adobe product i'm using right now isn't getting me the music score I need).

I'm debating going with HD, the difference between protools and protools HD seems to be a lot of cash and a step up in mental energy that I'm not sure I have. I really don't even understand why I need protools HD for 5.1 mixing (seems like normal protools outputs 5.1 in 6 channels).

Anyway, any hints/tricks/suggestions on protools and options for indie dcp sound will be much appreciated. Also best places for training (i have lynda.com, so i was just going to go through the training there). I am doing the editing in lightworks, so any best practices of moving the video to protools workflow would be appreciated.

 

[Doug Beatty]

I'm off Pro Tools. It's really powerful, but a lot of the time I felt like I was fighting the GUI rather than mixing. The default keyboard layout is not very macbook friendly either.

It's the 'industry standard' and great to know, so I highly recommend you to take the Lynda Pro Tools for Film course. It will walk you through setting up a template and routing your busses and best practices for moving your cut from an NLE to DAW.

I'm switching over to Nuendo (which, BTW, has an insanely long 400 hour trial period). It's geared more toward a film/TV production workflow that is highly customizable- searchable media pool, independent marker tracks, much nicer ADR tools, a beast of a mix window, and a sweet looking multichannel VST for upmix/downmix.

Another option is Reaper. I don't know much about it, but it seems capable and at $60 a license it's a steal.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'm thinking of moving back to Protools, this is my first feature and the tools I use for shorts/corporate stuff just are not cutting it. I am also debating stereo vs 5.1 for the DCP ( do people mainly do stereo for indie movies, do I really need 5.1 6 channel dcp for a low budget movie?).

I like what I'm hearing about protools 10 and 11 looks insanely good, but really i'm not competent enough really to compare products(i just know the adobe product i'm using right now isn't getting me the music score I need).

There's a reason that Pro Tools is the standard in the industry. I've tried everything else, and nothing is as flexible or has the sheer number of options and plug-ins available, not even by half.

I see Doug's point above that there is a steep learning curve, but I think that's often the case for any complex program that has layers and layers of features. I solved it just by taking four or five Pro Tools classes and got actual instruction from a certified trainer, and just learned it over time. Now, a lot of what it does is second nature to me. Even then, I know when I'm in over my head and I have to hire (or supervise) a really experienced mixer to do a complex project. There's tons and tons of mixers and companies out there who can do projects at very affordable prices if you ask around. Don't forget that there's nothing wrong with starting a project yourself, doing some of the most time-consuming tasks, and then turning the project over to a bigger company with a beter setup for the actual finish.

 

[Richard Luke]

Standard Protools is fine for any surround cinema mix
Everything you need is there. Dont worry about HD.
Make sure you have the best audio monitors you can afford and reasonably "dead" mixing environment with low sound reflections - this is more important than what software you use

 

[Craig Parkes]

From a standing start Nuendo is certainly a good option, but there is a lot of interchange functions between Avid and Protools that might make Protools better for you. But I'd certainly trial Nuendo if you are shopping around.

 

[Jack Stenner]

To do 5.1 with the basic ProTools software you'll have to purchase the ~$2K Production Toolkit add-on. Most of the PT guys don't think the toolkit is worthwhile and recommend spending a bit more for HD Native + Omni if you can swing it. So, something like $2.5K vs $5K. We just went through this decision-making process in outfitting a sound room.

HTH

 

[PatrickFaith]

LMAO ... first off ... thanks much for the responses guys ... love reduser ... and I just realized after 954 posts how to use the "multi-quote" feature of reduser ( i was doing stupid copy an paste's before) !

I'm off Pro Tools. It's really powerful, but a lot of the time I felt like I was fighting the GUI rather than mixing. The default keyboard layout is not very macbook friendly either. It's the 'industry standard' and great to know, so I highly recommend you to take the Lynda Pro Tools for Film course. It will walk you through setting up a template and routing your busses and best practices for moving your cut from an NLE to DAW.

I will for sure take the Lynda.com course, that site has been a lifesaver for me. I kind of quite protools a few years ago for some of the exact reasons you mentioned, not that I ever mastered it ... was more scared off on the initial learning curve. I had a bad reaction to cubase about 25 years ago, kind of like when i got sick on m&m when I was 6 years old and still don't like to eat them, so have avoided Nuendo even though I'm sure it's a a great program (also after 25 years i'm sure cubase is a lot different, but i still don't eat m&m's).

... There's tons and tons of mixers and companies out there who can do projects at very affordable prices if you ask around. Don't forget that there's nothing wrong with starting a project yourself, doing some of the most time-consuming tasks, and then turning the project over to a bigger company with a beter setup for the actual finish.

I think you nailed the main reason why I'm switching back to protools, basically I want to make sure I have all the tracks, a solid base sound design, and even a initial mix of the movie - BUT if I get a distribution deal ... I want to hand over all that work in a organized format to a company that will do a final mix at a affordable price. So my reason for switching is I think protools is the best package to use if I'm planning on doing the initial editing & mix while also planning on handing that over for a final mix & DCP.

Standard Protools is fine for any surround cinema mix
Everything you need is there. Dont worry about HD.
Make sure you have the best audio monitors you can afford and reasonably "dead" mixing environment with low sound reflections - this is more important than what software you use

Glad to hear that I don't need HD for my initial mix. Also I don't have speakers designed for mixing, and though I have a dedicated sound room for recording, mixing room is starting to get a "rumble" with all the computer equipment I have in it ... since I will be using a mac pro portable for mixing, I really need to rethink my speakers and where I will do the actual mixing.

From a standing start Nuendo is certainly a good option, but there is a lot of interchange functions between Avid and Protools that might make Protools better for you. But I'd certainly trial Nuendo if you are shopping around.

Your bringing up a issue i'm having, where I would really like to edit avid video & protools at the same time. Currently I'm switching my nle to lightworks on linux, due to the size of my vfx and RED DI in quadhd(2.4 aspect ratio cut), so moving I'm moving off of mac for video editing. I really don't like working in mixed environments, but since I'm doing my vfx & DI in 4k, I don't really have much choice since I'm using server farms. What I need to do is find a good workflow between lightworks and protools(which will be on my new mac), I know some large shops that have a workflow between lightworks and protools, but i'm small time indie and am worried i'm biting off too much ... argh ... biting off too much is perhaps the definition of doing a indie movie.

 

[PatrickFaith]

To do 5.1 with the basic ProTools software you'll have to purchase the ~$2K Production Toolkit add-on. Most of the PT guys don't think the toolkit is worthwhile and recommend spending a bit more for HD Native + Omni if you can swing it. So, something like $2.5K vs $5K. We just went through this decision-making process in outfitting a sound room.
HTH

I really like the new option on the mac for using the new thunderbolt interface with HD native. I had a F03 in the old days, and got sick of all the wires and processing delays (this was before HD processors). As I rethink my mixing room, i have been eyeing the HD native + Omni, I will probably end up going that way sometime in 2014 - letting things settle down a bit as the 64 bit protool's is coming out.

 

[Richard Luke]

To do 5.1 with the basic ProTools software you'll have to purchase the ~$2K Production Toolkit add-on. Most of the PT guys don't think the toolkit is worthwhile and recommend spending a bit more for HD Native + Omni if you can swing it. So, something like $2.5K vs $5K. We just went through this decision-making process in outfitting a sound room.

HTH

Not true Jack
You can do a 5.1 cinema surround mix in the most basic of protools systems as long as you have an interface with 6 simultaneous outputs. Any version from 7 will work.
From 9 on there are extra features that make it even easier.

 

[Jack Stenner]

Right, there are ways to cobble together a pipeline, but you have to find the right interface, don't have a 5.1 panner, and you have to find alternative ways to encode a 5.1 file, etc. All of which costs money and time...but, yeah, it is possible. We had a digi 003 and just about everyone (users, not salesmen) recommended we go to Native.

 

[Jack Stenner]

This might be helpful if you want to try the budget approach:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...ls-le-without-dv-toolkit-neyrinck-51-mix.html

Actually, I'd forgotten that we considered going that route initially (this link was in my batch of links when doing the research). I think "psyco_monkey"s feedback in that thread (combined with some others) is what encouraged us to go with something more concrete (acoustic treatment, Genelecs, etc.).

Thanks for the reminder, Richard!

HTH

 

[Marc Wielage]

Good recommendation, Jack. The guys over on Gearslutz' post section are experts at using Pro Tools, and there's a lot of "recommended practices" and "do's and don'ts" in terms of getting a film mix done. Just finding a room that can be aligned to the right levels for a theater is not a simple task. And there are also standards in place for network TV mixes and home video mixes, and I think it's very important to stick to those standards so that your audience doesn't wind up turning UP the sound during the quiet scenes, then getting blown OUT of the theater during loud scenes. There's a happy medium in between that preserves the dynamics while not beating the audience over the head with a sledgehammer.

Speaking as a guy who has done both, I'm often fascinated by the similarities between the final color-correction process and the final re-recording mix process, both of which come at the very end of the post workflow. And I'm amazed and alarmed by the number of people who assume that either process is easy, and they try to do it themselves at a small computer, with a questionable display and small speakers. Neither is optimal (to say the least), and things can go horribly wrong that way.

 

[Richard Luke]

In order of importance

A good set of ears which can't be bought - it takes many hours of working with audio however anybody can attain these with effort
A room treated to give as close to flat response as possible and quite "dead" to the ear.
5 powered studio audio monitors and minimum one LFE speaker - a set can be bough for as low as $2000
Speakers aligned to 85db for Cinema and 79dB for DVD / TV. Dolby themselves supply all the documentation needed to configure small to large post audio mixing rooms.
6 channel audio interface with line level out
Protools or equivalent DAW

Dolby Cinema mixes aren't encoded at home. They are delivered in stems. They are encoded in select post houses and there is a licence fee which is around $10000. A Dolby rep is usually present. These mixes can have huge dynamic range as the playback systems can make use of it and cinemas are usually good listening environments

DVD / TV surround Dolby mixes can be encoded at home on a laptop by many programs - even Apple compressor and are usually compressed dynamically due to the lower powered playback systems and less than ideal listening environments. These mixes also have to downmix well for any playback systems in stereo and even mono

They key with audio , like color correction/grading is to calibrate the equipment so you are sure what you see or what you hear is really that.

 

[PatrickFaith]

This might be helpful if you want to try the budget approach:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...ls-le-without-dv-toolkit-neyrinck-51-mix.html

Thanks, I think I've determined to go with stereo on my initial mix and something simple like this just to check things.

Speaking as a guy who has done both, I'm often fascinated by the similarities between the final color-correction process and the final re-recording mix process, both of which come at the very end of the post workflow. And I'm amazed and alarmed by the number of people who assume that either process is easy, and they try to do it themselves at a small computer, with a questionable display and small speakers. Neither is optimal (to say the least), and things can go horribly wrong that way.

Thinking this way makes a lot of sense to me, it's almost as if i will be the "sound compositor" (rather like a nuke video compositor but with sound), and when I'm done with the composite I will send that to the final "color" correction sound guy (that has all the calibrated gear). Another good thing about thinking of it this way and using protools, is I can send the protools XML and actual raw data to the final sound color guy (i.e. in video compositing, the the color correction person normally just gets dpx output, with sound, I think I'll be able to send everything to the person that will do the final mix). BTW, about half the movie's I see I have to cover my ears with my hands because the sound is so messed up (and this is in major theaters, so i totally hear what your saying).

In order of importance

A good set of ears which can't be bought - it takes many hours of working with audio however anybody can attain these with effort
A room treated to give as close to flat response as possible and quite "dead" to the ear.
5 powered studio audio monitors and minimum one LFE speaker - a set can be bough for as low as $2000
Speakers aligned to 85db for Cinema and 79dB for DVD / TV. Dolby themselves supply all the documentation needed to configure small to large post audio mixing rooms.
6 channel audio interface with line level out
Protools or equivalent DAW

Dolby Cinema mixes aren't encoded at home. They are delivered in stems. They are encoded in select post houses and there is a licence fee which is around $10000. A Dolby rep is usually present. These mixes can have huge dynamic range as the playback systems can make use of it and cinemas are usually good listening environments

DVD / TV surround Dolby mixes can be encoded at home on a laptop by many programs - even Apple compressor and are usually compressed dynamically due to the lower powered playback systems and less than ideal listening environments. These mixes also have to downmix well for any playback systems in stereo and even mono

They key with audio , like color correction/grading is to calibrate the equipment so you are sure what you see or what you hear is really that.

OK, so how i'm thinking of this in steps for my low budget feature is:
1) I will do the initial foley and music mixes with protools (probably using headphones)
2) I will do the editing and mixing of the audio to the video with protools and lightworks in a room that is semi-pro setup (under $3k).
3) I might calibrated a room and do a stereo mix for dvd and mp3 release (i.e. film sound track release) - and attempt 5.1 mix for internet distribution. (basically this would cost me 6k when I'm done with it, and even that might not be solid, so i will cost out having this work done, the decision will have a lot to do with how test screenings go with people I trust).
4) "If" I get a distribution deal, I will send that to a fully calibrated post house to do final dcp, color correction and digital Dolby surround sound mix .

This is btw for a G/PG film where I don't have explosive dynamic ranges and their is only ambient, foley & music mixes (i.e. all voice is done in the music track).

 

[Marc Wielage]

Thinking this way makes a lot of sense to me, it's almost as if i will be the "sound compositor" (rather like a nuke video compositor but with sound), and when I'm done with the composite I will send that to the final "color" correction sound guy (that has all the calibrated gear).

Talk to your re-recording mixer now so that whatever you do, it won't have to be undone later on. There are huge mistakes that can be made early in the process, and those will wind up costing you money by the time you reach post.

Note that Dolby certification costs money.

This is btw for a G/PG film where I don't have explosive dynamic ranges and their is only ambient, foley & music mixes (i.e. all voice is done in the music track).

Dynamic range is only part of the challenge. Making the dialogue and/or lyrics intelligible is still critical, because without that, you can't tell the story.

 

[PatrickFaith]

... Making the dialogue and/or lyrics intelligible is still critical, because without that, you can't tell the story.

I'm using the process of two albums as my guiding principle to focus on exactly what your saying: "Unearthed(Johny Cash)" produced by Rick Rubin and "Le Noise (Neil Young)" produced by Daniel Lanois.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'm using the process of two albums as my guiding principle to focus on exactly what your saying: "Unearthed(Johny Cash)" produced by Rick Rubin and "Le Noise (Neil Young)" produced by Daniel Lanois.

Sadly, music mixing has very little to do with motion picture dialogue mixing, especially in 5.1 surround. Totally different disciplines. You could compare shooting a concert with shooting a dramatic scripted story: they're both technically movies, but they're told in radically different ways and require different approaches and a different skill set.

My suggestion is that you take a tour of some major re-recording stages in your area and find out what you're getting into. Many companies will routinely offer tours to prospective clients and give you a demo of their capabilities, along with providing estimates of average rates and what to expect in terms of a post sound budget.