Need Advice!!! Legit Situation

[Dustin Shepard]

As some of you know my Pops was murdered this past April. And I pretty much got caked up(money) out of this ordeal.
And I'm looking for a good place/good set of PL cinema lenses to purchase a nice set. I figure movies aren't going anywhere and more of a secure investment than stocks at the moment cause it's not a whole lot but it's a lot. Got 50k I'm willing to throw down for a set in hopes to get it rented out on the regular.

 

[ericyoung]

Be careful. While lenses are a better investment than cameras in terms of keeping long term value, getting yours rented out depends a lot on your local market and competition from larger rental houses who have spare sets, repair and collimation facilities.

Sound out your existing clients to see how likely they would hire your lenses, rather than getting the whole package from a rental house.

 

[Dustin Shepard]

Be careful. While lenses are a better investment than cameras in terms of keeping long term value, getting yours rented out depends a lot on your local market and competition from larger rental houses who have spare sets, repair and collimation facilities.

Sound out your existing clients to see how likely they would hire your lenses, rather than getting the whole package from a rental house.

No clients really. Yea my friend recommended finding a old set of kowa Anamorphics because pretty much all the rental houses out here in LA probably have the newer stuff already. Sigh lol, the struggle of having a lot of money that isn't a lot. Just wanna do whats best. Would be nice to get at least 2 - 3 rentals a week.

 

[Andy White]

One problem would be insurance - unless you accompany the lenses all the time (and that would be peace of mind - but you'd still need insurance).

If you get one smashed/damaged, your set then looses value and rents for less... and you need to then find another to replace it (more cash).

Personally, I'd think twice about getting a set of lenses with the express notion of renting them out - especially something more antique/specialist like Kowa Anas. Unless, that is, you have a circle of trusted clients that you can rent to (ie an existing customer base).

The advantage of newer glass is you can replace it easily - older glass is harder to find. Canvas what'll rent and then take it from there... or, get the lenses you really want and then rent them out when you can.

Don't forget the rental houses hold multiples of lenses and glass is only one part of their business.

 

[Timur Civan]

I'd go used ultra primes or s4's. Still a workhorse. Put em at a rental house. Or use 50k as a down payment, and finance the final 50 for summicrons. The next "it" set of glass in my opinion.

Also, the cabrio has been very good to me these days. Less.investment and a steady source of rental income.

 

[Dustin Shepard]

well the whole plan was to put them in a rental house w.e. set i get and not to rent them out myself from home. The cooookes are super nice. I shot with them for the first time monday. So nice. my brain is gonna melt

 

[Dustin Shepard]

One problem would be insurance - unless you accompany the lenses all the time (and that would be peace of mind - but you'd still need insurance).

If you get one smashed/damaged, your set then looses value and rents for less... and you need to then find another to replace it (more cash).

Personally, I'd think twice about getting a set of lenses with the express notion of renting them out - especially something more antique/specialist like Kowa Anas. Unless, that is, you have a circle of trusted clients that you can rent to (ie an existing customer base).

The advantage of newer glass is you can replace it easily - older glass is harder to find. Canvas what'll rent and then take it from there... or, get the lenses you really want and then rent them out when you can.

Don't forget the rental houses hold multiples of lenses and glass is only one part of their business.

yea I feel you about having the peace of mind part

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Some owner-operators have done quite well assembling full kits including glass and renting them out regularly.

Many have found out just how difficult it is to be consistently profitable when you become what is essentially a too small rental house. As Andy alluded to, traditional rental houses have a far more extensive inventory of revenue generating gear, and, unlike a owner-op, can support multiple productions simultaneously.

IMO, it's all about scalability on several levels. With a couple million in inventory, 3 strong employees and a good location the rental house business can be a solid model. I don't know any specifics about what it took Mark to get Off Hollywood's rental biz built up to its current capacity but I know its turning out quite well for him. Part of that of course, is the tax incentive driven renaissance of production activity in New York, but I would argue that achieving that level of success is also about hitting the sweet spot for size and scale.

I know the OP wanted some feedback on which lens set one might purchase for roughly $50K that would be a good investment for rental - Ultras vs Schneiders vs Canon CEs, etc. I'm sure the RedUser community could provide some valuable insight into why one choice might be a couple notches better than another, and that's good info. I just wanted to share my observation that making any rental model pay in this business is much more about factors beyond which lenses you choose to get.

FWIW, at the moment the lens that rents like crazy around here is the Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 with servo zoom.

Cheers - #19

 

[Dustin Shepard]

Some owner-operators have done quite well assembling full kits including glass and renting them out regularly.

Many have found out just how difficult it is to be consistently profitable when you become what is essentially a too small rental house. As Andy alluded to, traditional rental houses have a far more extensive inventory of revenue generating gear, and, unlike a owner-op, can support multiple productions simultaneously.

IMO, it's all about scalability on several levels. With a couple million in inventory, 3 strong employees and a good location the rental house business can be a solid model. I don't know any specifics about what it took Mark to get Off Hollywood's rental biz built up to its current capacity but I know its turning out quite well for him. Part of that of course, is the tax incentive driven renaissance of production activity in New York, but I would argue that achieving that level of success is also about hitting the sweet spot for size and scale.

I know the OP wanted some feedback on which lens set one might purchase for roughly $50K that would be a good investment for rental - Ultras vs Schneiders vs Canon CEs, etc. I'm sure the RedUser community could provide some valuable insight into why one choice might be a couple notches better than another, and that's good info. I just wanted to share my observation that making any rental model pay in this business is much more about factors beyond which lenses you choose to get.

FWIW, at the moment the lens that rents like crazy around here is the Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 with servo zoom.

Cheers - #19

Yea my brother isn't in the film world at all and wants to get into it in terms of making some type of money on the side. Without having to do anything. So i told him instead of buying a camera to just sub rent at a rental house, to just go half with me on a lens set that I could rent out to my peeps/and smaller rental houses and we'd split the profits. I just don't wanna get some whack shit and I'm not too educated on what's the best.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I hear you Dustin and wish you nothing but the best. Just keep in mind that lens sets typically earn their keep over a long span of time. If your brother is cool with a modest amount of income per year over a long period of time then your plan might work out just fine. If he, or you, would rather get a return on your investment relatively quickly…

Traditionally lenses rent for 1 to 2% of their purchase cost per day with 3 day weeks and 10 day months. Maintenance, insurance and general overhead will eat some of your gross revenue so even if you can get $500/day for your $50K lens set I'd suggest you use $400/day as your estimated net. Are you planning to offer terms like net 30? An established rental house can afford to float their best customers to land a gig, or throw in a few freebies on a decent sized invoice - can you?

Quite frankly, the deciding factor in your particular situation might be the advantage of putting your pile of cash into a performing investment with a long time horizon. In other words, to keep you and/or your brother from spending it in the short term ;-)

BTW, I would carefully research the lens resale market to estimate the delta between a new set and a used one. This will help you select a set that is more likely to hold its value if you decide to sell down the road. It might also be a good place to pick up a lightly used set for much less than new from someone who found themselves with too little rental business to keep up with the payments. As you likely know, if you do pursue a resale set you'll want Duclos (or someone not quite as good ;-) to do a proper inspection before purchase. Do not skip this step.

Cheers - #19

 

[Dustin Shepard]

I hear you Dustin and wish you nothing but the best. Just keep in mind that lens sets typically earn their keep over a long span of time. If your brother is cool with a modest amount of income per year over a long period of time then your plan might work out just fine. If he, or you, would rather get a return on your investment relatively quickly…

Traditionally lenses rent for 1 to 2% of their purchase cost per day with 3 day weeks and 10 day months. Maintenance, insurance and general overhead will eat some of your gross revenue so even if you can get $500/day for your $50K lens set I'd suggest you use $400/day as your estimated net. Are you planning to offer terms like net 30? An established rental house can afford to float their best customers to land a gig, or throw in a few freebies on a decent sized invoice - can you?

Quite frankly, the deciding factor in your particular situation might be the advantage of putting your pile of cash into a performing investment with a long time horizon. In other words, to keep you and/or your brother from spending it in the short term ;-)

BTW, I would carefully research the lens resale market to estimate the delta between a new set and a used one. This will help you select a set that is more likely to hold its value if you decide to sell down the road. It might also be a good place to pick up a lightly used set for much less than new from someone who found themselves with too little rental business to keep up with the payments. As you likely know, if you do pursue a resale set you'll want Duclos (or someone not quite as good ;-) to do a proper inspection before purchase. Do not skip this step.

Cheers - #19

Yea, the overall plan is not to have my dad climb out his grave and slap the shit out of me for blowing the money. So after completing my package plan is to put the rest in some type of savings. Cause sometimes when people hit me up to use my epic they ask if i have a lens set and I'm all like "yeeeea...kind of" lol i have 3 ZE Zeiss lenses and 2 rokinons(not cine). Just want a more professional package. And honestly since I bought the bare minimum of my epic last year I haven't really even tried to put myself out there with it cause I just couldn't. It was too sketchy/incomplete but now since all this happened. I can totally complete a package and not just wait for friends to hit me up asking to shoot with it or turn down gigs cause I knew they wouldn't be able to use my set up. But now they can. I just don't wanna feel stupid after buying a set of lenses. But it'd be nice to find a good used set in excellent condition. FJS international was recommended by my friend Rick

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Have you considered the Red Pro Primes? Some folks dislike them, but they have a lot of key "cine" features like consistent front diameters, long focus throw, T1.8 from 18mm up to 100mm so they're fast and matched, used sets shouldn't be hard to find at a decent price, etc. This will get you over the "pro" barrier from a lens standpoint while still leaving you enough capital to address other elements of your kit.

I used to consider the Red Pro Primes the best bang for the buck in cine glass, full stop. As of NAB 2014 there are some other legit contenders, starting with Schneider Optics, best known for their excellent filters. After a couple of stumbles they seem to have really nailed it on version 3, RU rock star Phil Holland has a terrific thread about them you should read. Duclos will sell you a 6 lens set, all T2.2, for just under $50K which is right on target for your budget.

Canon has entered the cine prime lens market and is currently offering a 5 lens set for just under $25K. The focal length assortment has some holes - 14, 24, 50, 85, 135 - and the 14mm is T3.1, the 24, 50 & 85 are T1.5 (with decent contrast WFO!) and the 135 is T2.2 so they are not matched for max aperture. My personal shooting style for narrative would be challenged by not having anything between 24 and 50mm when doing traditional coverage, particularly in a compact location.

Just don't care for the Zeiss CP2s, especially in a set where the mismatched maximum aperture varies so widely.

Love the Leica 'crons but now you're talking $100K. Used Zeiss UPs might suit you, new ones (depending on the focal lengths you choose) will likely eat your $50K budget with only 3 or 4 lenses. That is unlikely to be enough options for most DPs who expect at least 6 focal lengths in a box which could severely cut into your potential rental market.

If it were me, and I had my other ducks in a row (enough mags, good support, etc) with a $50K budget I'd be on the phone to Matt Duclos ordering the Scheider Xenar III six lens set.

Cheers - #19

 

[Dustin Shepard]

Have you considered the Red Pro Primes? Some folks dislike them, but they have a lot of key "cine" features like consistent front diameters, long focus throw, T1.8 from 18mm up to 100mm so they're fast and matched, used sets shouldn't be hard to find at a decent price, etc. This will get you over the "pro" barrier from a lens standpoint while still leaving you enough capital to address other elements of your kit.

I used to consider the Red Pro Primes the best bang for the buck in cine glass, full stop. As of NAB 2014 there are some other legit contenders, starting with Schneider Optics, best known for their excellent filters. After a couple of stumbles they seem to have really nailed it on version 3, RU rock star Phil Holland has a terrific thread about them you should read. Duclos will sell you a 6 lens set, all T2.2, for just under $50K which is right on target for your budget.

Canon has entered the cine prime lens market and is currently offering a 5 lens set for just under $25K. The focal length assortment has some holes - 14, 24, 50, 85, 135 - and the 14mm is T3.1, the 24, 50 & 85 are T1.5 (with decent contrast WFO!) and the 135 is T2.2 so they are not matched for max aperture. My personal shooting style for narrative would be challenged by not having anything between 24 and 50mm when doing traditional coverage, particularly in a compact location.

Just don't care for the Zeiss CP2s, especially in a set where the mismatched maximum aperture varies so widely.

Love the Leica 'crons but now you're talking $100K. Used Zeiss UPs might suit you, new ones (depending on the focal lengths you choose) will likely eat your $50K budget with only 3 or 4 lenses. That is unlikely to be enough options for most DPs who expect at least 6 focal lengths in a box which could severely cut into your potential rental market.

If it were me, and I had my other ducks in a row (enough mags, good support, etc) with a $50K budget I'd be on the phone to Matt Duclos ordering the Scheider Xenar III six lens set.

Cheers - #19

damn! That was a good read, I really appreciate the responses man. Gonna look into the Xenar

 

[Will Keir]

Dustin,

Go to the "Lens Tests" section of this form. Read SALT I, II and III. Lots of great stuff in there and from years of experienced peps. Keep asking question and if you can, try to test the sets you are considering, most rental houses in LA will provide this service.

Yea my brother isn't in the film world at all and wants to get into it in terms of making some type of money on the side. Without having to do anything. So i told him instead of buying a camera to just sub rent at a rental house, to just go half with me on a lens set that I could rent out to my peeps/and smaller rental houses and we'd split the profits. I just don't wanna get some whack shit and I'm not too educated on what's the best.

 

[Dustin Shepard]

Dustin,

Go to the "Lens Tests" section of this form. Read SALT I, II and III. Lots of great stuff in there and from years of experienced peps. Keep asking question and if you can, try to test the sets you are considering, most rental houses in LA will provide this service.

Sweetness Thanks Willy Will Willz of The keir! Yea I definitely want to test these lenses out..I almost was gonna buy some bullshit cp.2s lol then i went to go see how they felt...felt reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal cheap lol..I don't like that haha.

 

[Freya]

FWIW, at the moment the lens that rents like crazy around here is the Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 with servo zoom.

Cheers - #19

I forsee zooms becoming more and more of a bigger thing in the lower end market, what with cameras like the Amira coming out and the downward pressure on budgets.

Freya

 

[Brian Merlen]

make sure whatever you get really books. blowing that kind of cash is a risk...cooke, arri, stuff like that books. just make sure you get a brand name set that is sought after is my advice. the schneiders look awesome but to be honest as much as i personally like them, they probably wont carry the same amount of brand equity as arri, etc and red pro primes are a bad rental idea compared to arri, they won't book the way ultras do, same with cooke or any more recognizable and historic cine makers. also i agree you should consider zooms as well...hell of a lot easier on your days when you aren't swapping lenses...even more so if the primes you get aren't matched dimension wise and need to move follow focus every lens change... those little stupid things add up quick time wise...

you should consider leasing higher end stuff, and if it doesn't work out you can always sell it for little depreciation (or buy used even and secure a loan from a credit union for very low rates while facing less depreciation but get the used set inspected professionally and serviced regularly). with the kind of money you have you can lease any set on the market, dont limit yourself to cash on hand if it forces you into buying a set with less brand name equity/recognition... a set on a shelf is meaningless so don't compromise and aim for the stuff that is actually highly sought after and used cuz if you can't afford it you should consider another investment... and your going to end up not getting it booked if you buy a bunk set/brand in desperation just to fit your budget (which only covers entry level to mid range sets). if your against leasing find another partner, im sure you could. i keep some stuff at big name places and it works out well and will get into the glass game eventually as well, but when i do it i'm going to do it right and go all out with some insane thing like umm masters or something on that level of soughtness

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If you are down with parking the lenses at a traditional rental house and just getting 50% of the rate then I agree with Brian, get something that gets requested regularly.

My advice was based on you renting directly and not getting over extended in case you didn't get as many renters as you hoped.

Cheers - #19

 

[Prince Bagdasarian]

Yup - all sounds about right. +1 on the Xenar's! We've been getting a lot of requests lately for cinema zooms. That's another option you should definitely consider (Optimo's, etc) as productions these days like moving faster without the need for lens swaps.

Either way, good call on asking around before blowing 50k on som BS lenses that nobody wants -- which I've seen a few owner-ops do around here in LA. :nono:

 

[John Fishburn]

Dustin,

it's been four weeks since your posts. Sorry to read of your loss. Wondering what decision you came to on the lenses, or did you? If your still deciding I've seen the following.

CP.2 lenses... Some folks like the look they give... But for your market / location they are not ideal as a rental item.

Ultraprimes have been loosing value on resale market fast. You may be able to buy inexpensive but there are lots out there now and pricing is likely to drop and they won't likely hold resale value too well. Many folks bought them hoping to cash in on booming Pl work but things have started to change.

Leica Summicrons are a great option and are gaining in adoption. Your $50k is about 1/2 the cost if a set of 6 lenses. Set of 8 lenses will set you back closer to $145,000...

If your looking at zooms

The new HOT zoom will be the Canon 17-120 zoom. I expect this lens to be in big demand against the Cabrio and at $31,350 it's in the budget.

i know a DP looking to sell his Angenieux 16-42 and 30-80 zoom which would likely fit into the $50k

Canon cine zooms, 15.5-47 and 30-105 compact zooms are gaining popularity now with their compact size and pleasing look. At $23,275 each both these lenses would fit your budget.