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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

Mike P. said:
Ironically, I think RED is falling into the Innovator's Dilemma, and no amount of objectively superior product will save them from the onslaught of guys like BM, Digital Bolex, GoPro, etc. releasing (on paper) comparable cameras for a fraction of the cost.
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I really think you need to leave Digital Bolex and GoPro out of this...

The DB maxes out at ~2K, and will be retailing for about $3,500. At this point, you'd probably just jump on the 4K for $4k BMC, since Blackmagic is at least established and not getting too far ahead of themselves.

GoPro HERO3 is a very niche cam - it has its uses, but how you can even begin to compare it to any other camera you mentioned is something I'm having trouble grasping.
 
BrendanLeahy said:
I really think you need to leave Digital Bolex and GoPro out of this...

The DB maxes out at ~2K, and will be retailing for about $3,500. At this point, you'd probably just jump on the 4K for $4k BMC, since Blackmagic is at least established and not getting too far ahead of themselves.

GoPro HERO3 is a very niche cam - it has its uses, but how you can even begin to compare it to any other camera you mentioned is something I'm having trouble grasping.
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Again, I didn't mean specific offerings from any specific manufacturer. I meant in general. Truth is, a new upstart (or branch of an existing company ... e.g. where is Panny in all this 4k+, RAWness?) is just as likely to announce a "FF35 8k raw 480fps" camera for $2500 (exaggerated for effect) as anyone else out there (including RED or BM or DB or GP) all around the same time period as the Dragon roll-out gets it's bugs ironed out (~6mths?). GoPro could very well announce/release a cinema camera, for example, that shoots 4k 120fps Cineform-Raw for $500 or something... know what I mean? Putting all your eggs in a $9500 upgrade that you're hoping will remain technologically superior until it's paid off is illogical at this point, especially when things can change so much in 6-12months and the sensor is still a few months out (for example, in 12months the Epic-X dropped its price in half and 4k for $4k is now the new reality).

All of that is superseded by the fact that clients/producers usually don't care about or know the differences between one vendor from another. You say, "5k raw ISO2000", they say, "does that mean we can cut the cost of our lighting package in half?"

Saying that BMPC doesn't compete with Scarlet-X, is equivalent to saying Scarlet-Dragon is the best ~$17k camera ($8k + $9.5k upgrade) out there... We haven't seen either. Fact of the matter is, on paper they'll (BMPC and SX... hell even SD) look very similar to the client/producer footing the bill. The problem is this mentality chips away at RED from both sides -- From the pro-side, the argument has always been Alexa is only 2k, yet looks better than Epic-X's 5k (or if I want 6k+, why not go F65? It's Sony!) From the consumer side, $4k for 4k, with essentially the same specs as Scarlet-X, is way too inexpensive to ignore. So RED is in the middle of a rock and a hard place, with only it's dedicated users (those upgrading without a second thought) making the difference. That's a tough spot to be in regardless of how much "better" the product actually is... That's all I'm saying. Innovator's Dilemma.

Personally, $9500 for an upgrade definitely stretches the definition of "upgrade" when there are $4-8k offerings with 90%+ of that upgrade's functionality. That's why I'm surprised people are jumping on this without question/sight-unseen, thinking it's going to be the cat's PJs for the next year (or more?)... Particularly when you're supposed to be selling your own knowledge/abilities more than your actual kit. That's a fool's errand best left to the rental houses. Nothing I saw from RED (or any other manufacturer for that matter) at NAB pushed me one way or the other -- in fact, all of the announcements made me very resistant to plunk down real money (aka $9.5k) without seeing how this stuff makes my job objectively easier/better. That may sound negative, but it's the same as saying my Scarlet-X is good enough to last the next year or two without the need for a $9.5k upgrade (and by that point, 8k/20stops may be well under $9.5k, which would make your S-Dragon upgrade purchase look downright foolish).... Like I said, rock and a hard place. 6k/25fps at ~1.2crop, to me, is worth the upgrade as it's enough of a change from s35/4k to be a different breed visually (and puts a big enough gap between the competition to stand out).

Am I glad to have these $9500 upgrade options? Damn straight I am. Does that mean I'm going to use either of them? No, absolutely not. Not unless a project comes along that actually requires it OR if the footage speaks for itself and 5kS35/16stops/RG4/r3d literally looks twice as good as my current footage (I'm skeptical that that's possible).
 
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Jay Kim said:
If you want to record 4K Raw with FS700, you need Sony’s HXR-IF5 interface module (about $2000) & AXS-R5 recorder ($5,300). And there is no way someone can convince me to spend extra $7,300 for FS700 to make it a franken rig which is still FS700.
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Or just a $2295 Convergent Design 7Q (whether there will be a cost for the Sony FS700 codec license or the FS700 firmware/hardware update is not yet revealed, but the first would not be more than $2k and the second Sony says they are trying to make free).

This was all revealed at NAB and looks like a much better option than the IF5 and R5 which are pretty cumbersome and expensive. The 7Q is less than half the price, much smaller, and more flexible with with what looks to be a great built in 7" 720p OLED monitor with scopes etc.
 
I don't see this happening in a million years but it could be a very interesting situation if RED found a way to push scarlet at 48fps @4k... just to really squash the BMPC. It would be really great to never have to switch from 4k to 3k to get slow mo... its not a huge deal, but still would be awesome. This though would kill alot of peoples need to upgrade to Scarlet dragon so this is most like just a pipe dream fun to talk about.
 
My Sony Nex Vg10 is worth 0 as a trade in at BH. I wish I was kidding, I'm not lol! It was everything I wanted at the time, large sensor, good form factor, it changes glass, all in all it cost 1/4 to 1/3 of what a 700 does... Granted its not there fs100 or 700, but its still an e mount camera, Exmor this yardda yadda. They are on their third one of them already, maybe the fourth, I don't even wanna keep track of it anymore lol. The same way that my buddies FS100 has seen better days as well. Sony seriously releases a new version of the same thing constantly. Thats why they need so many numbers and letters to classify which POS it is that is now your new doorstop.

I am quite happy with my Red and all the plastic cameras in the world won't change my mind...


Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
It has always seemed to me that red depreciates more than other cameras, partly because selling is a bit more of a hassle with the cost complcations of getting evaluation and transfer of ownership and because red actually changes msrp which no other manufacturers do. This further reenforces the benefit of relying on red's upgrade paths rather than buying/selling used. Furthermore, scarlet's reliance on proprietary accessories means those accessories depreciate greatly with the camera as they cannot be used with other camera systems. I would not be surprised if my scarlet package depreciated twice as fast as my fs700, and that is part of the reason I got the dragon upgrade, since the beauty of red is they have upgrade options that to some extent lets you turn your camera into a new one while limitung the disadvantage of high depreciation in your initial investment.

I don't knoe which sony camera you had but I've had many cameras and found thay if you buy smart cameras hold their value reasonably well. I dont know of any popular cameras that depreciated to nothing in 2 years or even 5 years, so perhaps you are exaggerating, but bh trade in is hardly a good indication of market value...
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Thinking out loudly (please bear with me)...
I have to admit that I am faced with a terrible dilema, but I expect not to be alone here: whether to take the Scarlet Dragon Route or the Epic-X (later Epic Dragon). Before NAB, I was really disappointed that RED dropped the Scarlet Dragon upgrade, as I really wanted to benefit from the very promising specs of Dragon and, frankly, I hardly need the higher frame rates of Epic X for 80% of my work. However, now RED has generously hit us with this double (or rather triple) offer and, after a week of checking out people's feedback on reduser and contemplating all possibilities, I simply cannot figure out what is the best choice.
Basically, the reasons that prevent me from choosing the upgrade to Scarlet Dragon is that I am afraid that in the long run it will not be the best choice. Don't get me wrong, both paths are AMAZING choices (only RED is capable of such gifts). I guess all I am trying to figure out is what would be the best option in the long run. I know there are many variables here (some of them personal), but I actually think that this decision could be made easily if I had 3 pieces of information which I hope RED can deliver some time in the near future:

1) If we choose the Scarlet Dragon, is that the end of the road in terms of "Obsolence Obsolote" for Scarlet? I know they will continue to deliver wonderful firmware upgrades, but I'm talking about future hardware upgrades (like Dragon now).
2) It would be great to get access to Dragon footage some time in the near future (2-3 months). Being able to play around with some Dragon .R3D files would certainly make any decision easier.
3) Like many users here (I suppose), I'm on a tight budget, so for the time being I can either afford Epic X or Scarlet Dragon. If I choose Epic X, it would be great to know how long will the upgrade plan last (from Epic X to Epic Dragon, I mean). My guess is that it will hold for a reasonable time (2 years at least), but it would be great to hear from RED a more specific time frame just to allow us to plan accordingly.

Anyways, I'm terribly grateful to RED for having this dilema and, as I already stated, there are really no bad choices here to make. Either route is fantastic. If my doubts are answered any time in the near future, great. If not, I guess I would just drop a coin, knowing either choice is a winner.

cheers, compadres.

TD Wood
 
Just a quick thought about that "end of the road" for Scarlet. Why do you assume this will be the last incarnation of Scarlet? The only thing we know for sure is there are currently no plans to make a upgrade from Scarlet-D to EPIC-D possible. That was the same thing with Scarlet-X to EPIC-X, well before NAB2013. RED now offers this to give Scarlet-Users options, they're not leaving us behind, they even brought back Scarlet-D after dropping the plan to do that, just because of so many requests and the pure will to do best for Scarlet-Users.

Why do you assume this will be the last time RED cares about Scarlet-owners?

I think Scarlet-D is a statement on it's own, RED sees a future for Scarlet, so should we. ;)

PS.: I'm still not sure which option to choose. Hehe.
 
I have gone for the Scarlet to Epic upgrade which is a truly great offer THANK YOU RED

The main reasons are, firstly l'll get the upgrade sooner than the Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon up grade, and then at a later date l can upgrade to Epic Dragon
if those specs are needed. The Scarlet is a wonderful camera producing stella images, but the Epic just gives faster frame rates etc

But which ever way you look at it all the up grade paths are fantastic, never had Sony offer me an upgrade path, only make the cameras out of date every 9 months.
I use a Canon C300 for certain jobs, now did Canon offer me an upgrade path to the C500!! like HELL

Just for my pennies worth all these other camera Bolex FS100, FS700 Hero3 etc are not in the same league or anywhere close, there good cameras if they
fit the shooting requirements but please people apples and oranges RED is head shoulders chest and hips above anything else, including the Canon range.

Guess its people trying to justify to themselves that what they got can compare to RED but can't make that step up to RED, lets have a little truth around here.
 
Maik Müller Menendez said:
Just a quick thought about that "end of the road" for Scarlet. Why do you assume this will be the last incarnation of Scarlet? The only thing we know for sure is there are currently no plans to make a upgrade from Scarlet-D to EPIC-D possible. That was the same thing with Scarlet-X to EPIC-X, well before NAB2013. RED now offers this to give Scarlet-Users options, they're not leaving us behind, they even brought back Scarlet-D after dropping the plan to do that, just because of so many requests and the pure will to do best for Scarlet-Users.

Why do you assume this will be the last time RED cares about Scarlet-owners?

I think Scarlet-D is a statement on it's own, RED sees a future for Scarlet, so should we. ;)

PS.: I'm still not sure which option to choose. Hehe.
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What I meant by that "end of the line" for Scarlet is just that the camera will be maxed out in terms of what else can be swapped before it makes sense to trade in for an Epic Dragon (and then onto whatever RED will be offering that far into the future!).

Remember that RED kept their words loose when stating that they weren't sure if the Scarlet would have a direct path to upgrade to Dragon, or if the cost would be so high that you'd just be better off upgrading to an Epic. Looks like they gave us both options!

I know RED will take care of their own regardless of which route you go.
 
I doubt this is the end for scarlet, they are made on the same assembly line for one. Two, when they come out with a new EPIC, Scarlet is soon to follow to fill in the entry level market. Dragon is prob the end for this EPIC/SCARLET design but a new one is soon to follow.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Any updates post-meeting re:whether you'll ship Scarlet -> Epic-MX upgrades soonish?
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this drives me nuts....the option to trade in scarlet for epic is official for a week now...and i really can't figure out why we can't have an answer to this....i don't even understand why the answer wasn't included in the initial announcement....once the decision to allow for that trade in is made, the logistics of how to deal with it should be very clear and the answer right there on the table....next week/next month/july....

anyway...i am happy to get to upgrade....
 
Give em time, they need to go over inventory vs trade ins.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Any updates post-meeting re:whether you'll ship Scarlet -> Epic-MX upgrades soonish?
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Well the big mystery is wether there is an elaborate inspection of the existing Scarlet before they send off a new Epic-x which would cause a bottleneck. My decision to go Epic-X before jumping to Epic Dragon was entirely based on assuming that RED would be able to ship the Epic-X faster than the dragons. It was purely speculation on my part. I hope I'm right as I would be able to squeeze in some additional work with the Epic before our too short-of-a-summer ends here in Canada. I'm guessing there are several meetings going on at RED dealing with logistics of getting all those cameras upgraded or traded. Remember, they can only push about 13 cameras through that assembly line a day.
 
Jon Carr said:
Give em time, they need to go over inventory vs trade ins.
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that would be looking at one number (which was available before the announcement) on a screen: X (epics available) and then look at the other one (getting bigger the longer they wait but is still limited by the total number of scarlets ever produced/bought): Y......maybe write those 2 numbers on a piece of paper.....there really should not be any surprises there....nothing that would require some crazy strategic thinking/planing....
and really no reason why they would not start the whole process asap....unless there is a reason (strategic planing,...) to delay the program for x days/weeks/months....
but again: i will be patient....i am happy with the options provided....
 
I am extremely grateful for an upgrade from Scarlet to Epic-X as well, but me upgrading completely depends on me getting the Epic by May 13 for a feature, otherwise we will need to rent out an Epic and I won't have the money to upgrade. I really hope info is released soon...
 
Totally awesome thanks red team well done woo hoo my my my blah blah blah blah blah blah.....FOR 95 PAGES.
 
Arnold F. said:
Totally awesome thanks red team well done woo hoo my my my blah blah blah blah blah blah.....FOR 95 PAGES.
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It sure beats the usual countless and never-ending threads full of complaints and arrogant demands. Your point is...?
 
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