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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

Mike P. said:
I'm interested to see what the blue channel is like on Dragon... It'd be pretty sweet if it did some kind of tungsten compensation, rather than just gaining the blue channel to balance.
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Yes. I'd love to leave my blue glass at home when in tungsten. Very curious about this.
 
Deadline? Early Adopter Discount Epic to Dragon Upgrade?

Deadline? Early Adopter Discount Epic to Dragon Upgrade?

Jarred Land said:
We finally have received the new ASICs to begin the process of upgrading Epic and Scarlet Cameras to the Dragon Sensor.

Tomorrow (Monday):
-EPIC-M owners can pre-order the upgrade for $9500
-Early adopters can pre-order the upgrade for $8500 ($1000 credit when invoiced)
-New EPIC-M Dragon pre-orders begin tomorrow for $29k. Ships after existing Epic-M owners have had opportunity to upgrade.

Thursday:
-EPIC-X non-early adopters can pre-order upgrade for $9500.
And you can add a Rocket-X to your order for $4495.
...
Click to expand...


Mick van Rossum said:
So, as an early adaptor only arriving on wednesday, is this a tuesday only special price ? Or can i still order the early adaptor special on wednesday/thursday ?
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Brent@RED said:
Mick, still can order on Wed or Thu at that price, just are farther back in the line. Open ended...
Click to expand...


Brent@RED said:
Pre-order is getting a spot in line. For upgrade, you will be notified to pay when you are up in line. New orders, just like everything else these days, pay when ready to ship.
Click to expand...
Brent@RED said:
Eric, sorry if I was not clear, no deposit. Pre-order is getting a number in line. No money exchanged.
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Patrick Grossien said:
Brent, does "open ended" mean that it doesn't matter when we want to upgrade? So I could upgrade let's say even in 2014?
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Jarred Land said:
likely...
Click to expand...


So just wanted to check - I'm a Red One early adopter and would like to take advantage of discounted $8500 price for upgrading my Epic-X to Dragon, and maybe the Rocket-X bundle price too.
But, I'm probably the last Reduser to take delivery of Epic-X Stage 3 which I've just paid for, so won't have new funds for the upgrade and/or Rocket-X for several months, if not into early 2014 llke Patrick above, so not bothered about being early in line for an upgrade.


What I need to know is - do I have to sign up for the upgrade in the next day or so, or NOW?, to keep eligibility for the discounted $8500 price - but I can defer actually paying and taking delivery until possibly early 2014?
Or can I just do the upgrade whenever, and still get the $8500 price and/or get the Rocket-X for $4495, because my early adopter eligibility is provable and won't expire for at least into early 2014?

Just bumping up my query.
 
I just went to the Apple Store last week. My top of the line Macbook Pro Retina wasn't taking power through the mag safe. It had 3 other problems previous to this, all within 6 months. The logic board had been replaced twice. It was all under warranty. This time, they gave me a brand new Macbook Pro Retina- but a newer version with a slightly faster CPU. They just happily replaced it with few questions- they saw the repair history.

Great companies stand behind their products. Customer service is part of this and warranties are another. 90 days doesn't really send the message that RED believes in its product or manufacturing. I'm still going to do the upgrade but strongly believe RED should get behind their product with a 1 year warranty for no additional charge. I'm happy to pay for anything beyond.
 
steve duncan said:
I could be wrong on the Dragon Scarlet not being upgradeable, I thought i saw it on an earlier post. As a rule of thumb you don't offer a buy back program for a product you're currently selling at a dramatic price difference.

Everyone is being brain washed into thinking you need something better than the 4k/5k camera you currently own. Scarlet camera is awesome, and is worth a hell of a lot more than $5K. That's based on what else is on the market. There's no way an Epic Dragon is worth 5 Scarlets, which is what RED is telling you when they give you 5k back for your Scarlet, towards a 24k camera... sorry, you can't even tell the difference between 2k and 4k, nevermind 4k and 6k. this is hype to separate you from your money. ARRI went to NAB and laughed at 4K-- they showed their 2K images on a 4K screen vs RED and everyone else's 4k/5K. Guess who's 2k image was better?

if you can't make a good film with the Scarlet or the Epic with the current frame rates- you need a new profession. Nobody can tell the difference. Especially RED who are now selling a sensor when no one has ever seen a moving image from it.

If you guys can't see this for what it is-- a seemingly desperate move, to try to convince people to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get an upgraded camera they don't need. Why you may ask? Because RED knows that there's tough 4k competition coming in the sub 10k market. They want out of the Indie, small production house business.. They want to take on ARRI in the $30k - 40K range to convince major studios to get behind them. How else can you explain that there cheapest new camera being released will be the Dragon Scarlet at 17, plus accessories = 22k. That's expensive.

Keep your money for now. the new sensor isn't going to get you new jobs, or better rental rates. it will be something cool to say for a year or two before everyone else catches up, but that's it. RED had their chance to get us behind them with a reasonable upgrade program and they snubbed their noses at us. They said they'd let Scarlet owners trade in the Scarlets at the original price to buy into Epic Dragon. Now they're saying the Scarlet trade in value is only 5K.

Save your money for a rainy day fund. 10k is a ton of money. you'll thank me in 2015. For the little guys like us- RED priced us out of the game here. Except they're not concentrating on getting the bigger fish. I think they'll fail again at it, like they did in 2010, but if that's their dream, than so be it. Don't chase the butterfly-- be happy with your camera-- go out and shoot. That's what i'm doing today.

SD

p.s. don't be surprised if your RED Scarlet in 2014 makes more money renting out at $200 a day than Epic Dragon at $500 a day. People are going to want the cheap 4k option, and you'll feel like a jackass coming down to a $200 rental on an Epic Dragon. Don't sell your Scarlets back to RED!! if you're dying to get the Epic Dragon-- buy it new.
Click to expand...

confirmed-- the RED Scarlet is not upgradeable... so strange that RED is charging 10k to get us to the upgradeable camera. They should be dying for us to get there, so they keep charging us for upgrades.
 
Question: Will the upgrade price increase after NAB? I do not have the financing ready for Dragon now, but if the price will increase, I need to find a way to get it and compromise some of my plans for this quarter...

Really would like a response...

Sergio
 
steve duncan said:
confirmed-- the RED Scarlet is not upgradeable... so strange that RED is charging 10k to get us to the upgradeable camera. They should be dying for us to get there, so they keep charging us for upgrades.
Click to expand...

Everyone wants something for nothing. Surely you can't be serious Steve...
 
Eric Haase said:
I just went to the Apple Store last week. My top of the line Macbook Pro Retina wasn't taking power through the mag safe. It had 3 other problems previous to this, all within 6 months. The logic board had been replaced twice. It was all under warranty. This time, they gave me a brand new Macbook Pro Retina- but a newer version with a slightly faster CPU. They just happily replaced it with few questions- they saw the repair history.

Great companies stand behind their products. Customer service is part of this and warranties are another. 90 days doesn't really send the message that RED believes in its product or manufacturing. I'm still going to do the upgrade but strongly believe RED should get behind their product with a 1 year warranty for no additional charge. I'm happy to pay for anything beyond.
Click to expand...

THIS!!!
 
Jarred Land said:
Anyone else want to chime in to save HDRx in the Dragon before we kill it?
Click to expand...

Jarred Keep the HDRx in the Dragon. I use it to take stills with less motion blur.
 
steve duncan said:
I could be wrong on the Dragon Scarlet not being upgradeable, I thought i saw it on an earlier post. As a rule of thumb you don't offer a buy back program for a product you're currently selling at a dramatic price difference.

Everyone is being brain washed into thinking you need something better than the 4k/5k camera you currently own. Scarlet camera is awesome, and is worth a hell of a lot more than $5K. That's based on what else is on the market. There's no way an Epic Dragon is worth 5 Scarlets, which is what RED is telling you when they give you 5k back for your Scarlet, towards a 24k camera... sorry, you can't even tell the difference between 2k and 4k, nevermind 4k and 6k. this is hype to separate you from your money. ARRI went to NAB and laughed at 4K-- they showed their 2K images on a 4K screen vs RED and everyone else's 4k/5K. Guess who's 2k image was better?

if you can't make a good film with the Scarlet or the Epic with the current frame rates- you need a new profession. Nobody can tell the difference. Especially RED who are now selling a sensor when no one has ever seen a moving image from it.

If you guys can't see this for what it is-- a seemingly desperate move, to try to convince people to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get an upgraded camera they don't need. Why you may ask? Because RED knows that there's tough 4k competition coming in the sub 10k market. They want out of the Indie, small production house business.. They want to take on ARRI in the $30k - 40K range to convince major studios to get behind them. How else can you explain that there cheapest new camera being released will be the Dragon Scarlet at 17, plus accessories = 22k. That's expensive.

Keep your money for now. the new sensor isn't going to get you new jobs, or better rental rates. it will be something cool to say for a year or two before everyone else catches up, but that's it. RED had their chance to get us behind them with a reasonable upgrade program and they snubbed their noses at us. They said they'd let Scarlet owners trade in the Scarlets at the original price to buy into Epic Dragon. Now they're saying the Scarlet trade in value is only 5K.

Save your money for a rainy day fund. 10k is a ton of money. you'll thank me in 2015. For the little guys like us- RED priced us out of the game here. Except they're not concentrating on getting the bigger fish. I think they'll fail again at it, like they did in 2010, but if that's their dream, than so be it. Don't chase the butterfly-- be happy with your camera-- go out and shoot. That's what i'm doing today.

SD

p.s. don't be surprised if your RED Scarlet in 2014 makes more money renting out at $200 a day than Epic Dragon at $500 a day. People are going to want the cheap 4k option, and you'll feel like a jackass coming down to a $200 rental on an Epic Dragon. Don't sell your Scarlets back to RED!! if you're dying to get the Epic Dragon-- buy it new.
Click to expand...

Now it's pretty evident you're arguing just to be arguing.

1) First you talk about how awesome the Scarlet is then you turn right around and rant about how nobody can tell the difference between 2K and 4K. What the hell did you buy a Scarlet for?

2) RED is desperate to convince people to buy a camera they don't need, huh? Be happy with your camera, you say? Then why do you care so much if the Scarlet Dragon is upgradeable and why are you bitching about upgrades at all?

3) How exactly did RED fail in 2010? They didn't attract the big fish (I'm assuming you didn't mean to add the word "not" in that sentence)? How much bigger than Peter Jackson, Ridley Scott, Steven Soderbergh, David Fincher, THe Hughes Brothers, Guillermo del Toro, Michael Bay (as much as I hate to say it), etc. do you have to be? However bad their failure was it didn't stop you from buying a Scarlet did it? If RED fails like they did before they'll be crying all the way to the bank.

3) They didn't say the Scarlet trade-in would be the original price. RED has always been clear that was a one-time deal. Jarred said they would probably offer a trade-in program "MUCH LIKE" the R1 program. I think you saw what you wanted to see.

It's pretty obvious to everyone but you that RED has long since moved away from being the 3K for $3K company. Their first camera was $17,500. Is that really "little guy" territory? Yes, they took a stab at the camera for the financially challenged but they steadily moved away from that model before Scarlet was ever released.

Blackmagic Design has a 4K camera for $3,995 and I'm pretty sure they're licensing a pre-existing sensor from someone else like they did with the original BMCC to help keep costs down.

When you realistically compare that to developing your own custom sensors and boards with the goal of producing the most advanced, commercially available camera on the market, it should be easy to see that RED can't be in the bargain basement camera game.

You basically want RED to upgrade your Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon for the price of what another company charges for off-the-shelf components and an open, raw capture file format.

They've always been the bang-for-the-buck camera company but it's always been a) compared to the rest of the competition and b) with the assumption that you had SOME bucks to spend commensurate to getting leading edge technology.
 
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Eric Haase said:
I just went to the Apple Store last week. My top of the line Macbook Pro Retina wasn't taking power through the mag safe. It had 3 other problems previous to this, all within 6 months. The logic board had been replaced twice. It was all under warranty. This time, they gave me a brand new Macbook Pro Retina- but a newer version with a slightly faster CPU. They just happily replaced it with few questions- they saw the repair history.

Great companies stand behind their products. Customer service is part of this and warranties are another. 90 days doesn't really send the message that RED believes in its product or manufacturing. I'm still going to do the upgrade but strongly believe RED should get behind their product with a 1 year warranty for no additional charge. I'm happy to pay for anything beyond.
Click to expand...

I'm in complete agreement.
 
George Su said:
Wondering if the Super16 image area will be more pixels.
Click to expand...

Based on Red's Dragon Specs, there are 6144 pixels across and a physical width of 30.7mm, which equals 200.13 pixels per mm. Super 16 has a width of 12.52mm, so if I'm doing this right, a Super 16 crop of Dragon should have a width of 2505, which unlike 2K, should resolve to full HD or even 2K, and should be capable of somewhere between 200 and 300 fps. IF Red gives us a 2.5K option. This has been discussed for years and Jarred has even said they are thinking about it, but it has never happened. Having this option is even more relevant now with Dragon.

Jarred, please weigh in on whether of not these numbers are accurate and whether or not a 2.5K option can/will be implemented in the near future. For many of us who do verité, wildlife, and high speed work, having the option to use S16 glass and also get the maximum frame rate that will resolve to HD are huge needs and would add great value to the cost of a Dragon upgrade.

My Sony FS700 does 240fps with HD res. Why not my Epic. :)
 
Graeme@Red,

I'd like to buy some NAB 'priced high CRI LED (remote phosphor) lighting.

Which do you think the Dragon sensor would most like a scene bathed in:

+) 5600K light (with an extended CRI of 93) or
+) 3200K light (with an extended CRI of 98)

Thanks,
AJ
 
Antony, that's impossible for me to say without actually testing.

Graeme
 
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