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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

Denis Murin said:
I agree but silence is kinda wierd. Even some word would be nice: "You'll have to wait, footage is in post", "We are refining color science, no footage 'till its done" but all we see is absolutely stunning essembly line (seriously, real time laser engraving blew my mind away). And that was 2 days ago. By now I expected to see few hundreds of happy Dragon owners destroying Vimeo.
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Just to be clear-- RED swapped in Dragon sensors at NAB for various Epic owners, and we're waiting on them to put out Vimeo videos? Is there any reason the company didn't take a Dragon Epic out a few days before and post up some footage? Maybe it was a marketing strategy for NAB?

I'm waiting for official pricing, and the rest of the specs on the Dragon Scarlet. It it can do 120 fps at 4K, and had better low light performance, i'd think about it. I'd love to get to an Epic Dragon. I just can't do 19k for it, it's way too much money when you can just buy a brand new one for 24k and not lose your Scarlet. Basically RED is giving you 5K for your Scarlet to put towards a new Epic. I think that's low balling the camera.

I'd love to upgrade to the epic, but for the 9,500 price- I'd rather pre order 2 black magic 4K cameras and get a new canon 24-70 v2 for a similar price. Depending on final pricing for the Scarlet Dragon, and the released specs- i'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on the Black Magics. I had a 12k budget ready to send to RED this week for the upgrades... 19k unfortunately is a bit too pricey. Hopefully the Dragon Scarlet specs are compelling- if so, i'll consider it.

I heard the Dragon Scarlet will not be upgradeable afterwards.... if that's true, its even more perplexing that RED isn't allowing Scarlet owners to upgrade to Epic for something reasonable. I'd be curious to see, how many Scarlet owners would pay 20% more than a brand new Scarlet, just to upgrade their current Scarlet to get to 5k 120 fps. Really Really expensive. I like slow motion, but is it really worth two black magic 4k cameras and a new cannon lense. Don't think so.
 
Jarred Land said:
Anyone else want to chime in to save HDRx in the Dragon before we kill it?
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It is great for motion and stills in one take, keep it. To have that second shutter speed is great.
 
I use HDRx for every timelapse. It's next to impossible for some shots to get one exposure that can hold the entire dynamic range so it's great to just adjust exposure in post on one 18 stop image to normalize the image. (de-flicker plugins help here too). Also it seems like HDRx was built for dragon. Normally the x-track is too noisy for 'beauty' passes but with 2000 iso you can do 1/4 shutter and still get a nice clean MX quality image I imagine. So both your stills and your motion are low noise. The X track has also traditionally been too noisy for clean 3D tracking so I haven't used it but with Dragon I expect it'll finally be perfect for 3D tracking.
 
I agree to Gavin, Dragon and HDRx has a lot of potential, it's a great tool to get motion and stills at the same time. I would use it more often on Scarlet, but it's hard to to go under 4k. Hehe. I'm looking forward to use it on my Dragon EPIC (or Scarlet, havn't made a final decision).

Please don't kill HDRx! Maybe add some bits here and there, for example i would love to set the second exposure in 1/xxth-sec-format or be able to preview the second track. ;)

BTW, i guess the idea about the better hDRx-compression to enable 4k-HDRx on Scarlet (MX) is from the table?
 
steve duncan said:
I heard the Dragon Scarlet will not be upgradeable afterwards.... if that's true, its even more perplexing that RED isn't allowing Scarlet owners to upgrade to Epic for something reasonable. I'd be curious to see, how many Scarlet owners would pay 20% more than a brand new Scarlet, just to upgrade their current Scarlet to get to 5k 120 fps. Really Really expensive. I like slow motion, but is it really worth two black magic 4k cameras and a new cannon lense. Don't think so.
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is this true or conjecture? cuz if true I'm getting an Epic...
 
Over the last few days, I have been living life vicariously through the myriad of RU updates from NAB.

With so many innovative and awe inspiring announcements from the Red camp - it's tantamount to downing a box of your favourite chocolates ... every hour.

+) The world now knows that Dragons really do exist, and have no doubt been drooling at the laser etching that welcomes their entry into our worlds.

+) And We will have the honour of growing up with these 'babies!

I may be in the minority, but this quiet before the storm can only mean we all get the chance to go ape again in a matter of weeks!

And those who have lined themselves up in the 'queue - without even knowing what awaits them are going to have the blind date of a lifetime.

AJ
 
steve duncan said:
Just to be clear-- RED swapped in Dragon sensors at NAB for various Epic owners, and we're waiting on them to put out Vimeo videos? Is there any reason the company didn't take a Dragon Epic out a few days before and post up some footage? Maybe it was a marketing strategy for NAB?
Click to expand...

The firmware and colour science isn't finished yet. They can't just take one out and get gorgeous pictures for us.
 
I'm glad HDRx is staying put! I didn't use it much, but on those times I did, it was a real shot saver.

I'd still love to see some Dragon footage. The lizard wasn't good enough for me. Although I bet the Dragon upgrade that they are demo-ing at NAB is for owners who will be beta-testing the sensor.
 
steve duncan said:
Just to be clear-- RED swapped in Dragon sensors at NAB for various Epic owners, and we're waiting on them to put out Vimeo videos? Is there any reason the company didn't take a Dragon Epic out a few days before and post up some footage? Maybe it was a marketing strategy for NAB?

I'm waiting for official pricing, and the rest of the specs on the Dragon Scarlet. It it can do 120 fps at 4K, and had better low light performance, i'd think about it. I'd love to get to an Epic Dragon. I just can't do 19k for it, it's way too much money when you can just buy a brand new one for 24k and not lose your Scarlet. Basically RED is giving you 5K for your Scarlet to put towards a new Epic. I think that's low balling the camera.

I'd love to upgrade to the epic, but for the 9,500 price- I'd rather pre order 2 black magic 4K cameras and get a new canon 24-70 v2 for a similar price. Depending on final pricing for the Scarlet Dragon, and the released specs- i'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on the Black Magics. I had a 12k budget ready to send to RED this week for the upgrades... 19k unfortunately is a bit too pricey. Hopefully the Dragon Scarlet specs are compelling- if so, i'll consider it.

I heard the Dragon Scarlet will not be upgradeable afterwards.... if that's true, its even more perplexing that RED isn't allowing Scarlet owners to upgrade to Epic for something reasonable. I'd be curious to see, how many Scarlet owners would pay 20% more than a brand new Scarlet, just to upgrade their current Scarlet to get to 5k 120 fps. Really Really expensive. I like slow motion, but is it really worth two black magic 4k cameras and a new cannon lense. Don't think so.
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I am surprised at how many people post about things without reading the posts from RED staff first. It should be pretty clear from one of the first posts that the cameras you see being upgraded get a hardware upgrade, and will sit waiting for the firmware until that is ready. And from all the silly pixel-peeking I have seen here before, I understand perfectly well why RED will not publish any images made with preliminary firmware.

As for Scarlet upgrades, I totally fail to see that there is not a very reasonable upgrade to Epic. Of course, if you were stupid enough to buy a Scarlet last week with the intention of upgrading rather than using it, that would come under the heading of expensive mistakes. But how much can you expect to get out of a used camera - or a used anything at all? Cameras are no different from cars and computers - they are worth a lot less the day after you bought them, not to mention six months later. It is usually cheaper to sell them yourself than trying to get a good trade-in from the dealer. With the Scarlet, this is different. You get a better trade than you would manage to get from a private sale.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
The firmware and colour science isn't finished yet. They can't just take one out and get gorgeous pictures for us.
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so even RED hasn't been able to test the sensor, to get video images? Doesn't that seem a little weird that they're starting to pre-sell the sensor tomorrow a.m. for the nifty price of 10K, before having video footage tests done themselves? Nevermind anything to show people? I mean if Sony created a new camera, but said they've haven't been able to test it yet, but than start pre-selling it for $25,000 - wouldn't you assume it was some sort of amateur hour publicity stunt? Or that the company management were high? I'm not a scientist, but isn't there a chance, knowing they have seen video images from the sensor (never mind it working in conjunction with the camera) that it may need additional R&D?

Now I know you don't have to put money down yet, but how would you know how to even price a product that hasn't been tested, if you don't have the finished product or can see the results? Thank god RED's management team isn't running a pharmaceutical company.

It's amazing what I thought of RED two months ago, to what I think of RED now. I just don't take them seriously anymore. From saying that the Dragon sensor wouldn't fit in a Scarlet, which was obviously not true at all-- to waiting til NAB to say that now it does fit. I don't like being jerked around-- if they knew 2 months ago, that the Scarlet could take the Dragon sensor, they should've told us then- not waiting til NAB as some sort of cool place to do a press release.

From telling us that you'll be able to trade in your Scarlet, to upgrade to Epic-- to now only offering an insulting 5K for your used Scarlet. It's mind boggling. And by charging a ridiculous 19K to get to Epic Dragon from Scarlet-- the company has basically announced to the world that a used Scarlet, in their opinion, is worth 5K. Almost 40% below what they're selling it for on their website. Try buying a used Canon 5D Mark 3 for 40% less than what it's selling for new-- good luck. Your lucky to get a 15% discount for it used. Imagine if Canon offered a trade in program for a camera they're currently selling for 40% under market-- people would be furious. Now everyone thinking to buy an Epic Dragon is going to try to get more than 5K on the open market, which is going to flood the market with Scarlet sales, driving prices even lower. What a kick in the teeth to Scarlet owners-- especially if you bought the camera in the past 3 or 4 months.

There is not even a grandfather clause for the sorry Epic buyer who paid 19K for an Epic in the past 90 days, who now have to chalk up another 9.5K to get to Dragon Epic (28.5K), while anyone else on the street gets it for 24K. What a great loyalty program. It only cost you what they're paying for a used Scarlet, or two weeks in Tahiti. Thanks for playing.

Really, who runs this company? It's embarrassing. If it was a major company like ARRI or Sony pulling this, there would be serious backlash. And than people wonder why the major companies, and production houses don't take RED seriously. A shame, they have a great product-- terrible PR, and questionable management, to put it mildly.
 
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steve duncan said:
Just to be clear-- RED swapped in Dragon sensors at NAB for various Epic owners, and we're waiting on them to put out Vimeo videos?
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Wrong I believe. There are no "Owner" cameras here at NAB being retrofitted. Those clean room units seem to be factory owned cameras since no one here knows of anyone that has sent their camera in yet. Settle down and wait for the facts to emerge.

Meanwhile . . . take a Scarlet out and make the amazing film it is able to record in your capable hands. You seem a very gifted artist who would make the world a better place by sharing your vision and creativity. Don't deny us your gift by waiting for Dragon or BMD 4K to record this stunning tapestry of visual emotions - please do it today.

BTW: if you can buy a two BMD 4K cams today then you are one special customer since they are currently at the working prototype stage it seems. Took them about a year to ship in quantity / quality the last camera they announced. We'll see.
 
steve duncan said:
so even RED hasn't been able to test the sensor, to get video images? Doesn't that seem a little weird that they're starting to pre-sell the sensor tomorrow a.m. for the nifty price of 10K, before having video footage tests done themselves? Nevermind anything to show people? I mean if Sony created a new camera, but said they've haven't been able to test it yet, but than start pre-selling it for $25,000 - wouldn't you assume it was some sort of amateur hour publicity stunt? Or that the company management were high? I'm not a scientist, but isn't there a chance, knowing they have seen video images from the sensor (never mind it working in conjunction with the camera) that it may need additional R&D?

Now I know you don't have to put money down yet, but how would you know how to even price a product that hasn't been tested, if you don't have the finished product? Thank god RED's management team isn't running a pharmaceutical company.

It's amazing what I thought of RED two months ago, to what I think of RED now. I just don't take them seriously anymore. From saying that the Dragon sensor wouldn't fit in a Scarlet, which was obviously not true at all-- to waiting til NAB to say that now it does fit. I don't like being jerked around-- if they knew 2 months ago, that the Scarlet could take the Dragon sensor, they should've told us then- not waiting til NAB as some sort of cool place to do a press release.

From telling us that you'll be able to trade in your Scarlet, to upgrade to Epic-- to now only offering an insulting 5K for your used Scarlet. It's mind boggling. And by charging a ridiculous 19K to get to Epic Dragon from Scarlet-- the company has basically announced to the world that a used Scarlet, in their opinion, is worth 5K. Almost 40% below what they're selling it for on their website. Try buying a used Canon 5D Mark 3 for 40% less than what it's selling for new-- good luck. Your lucky to get a 15% discount for it used. Imagine if Canon offered a trade in program for their camera for 40% under market-- people would be furious.

There is not even a grandfather clause for the poor Epic buyers who paid 19K for an Epic in the past 90 days, who now have to chalk up another 9.5K to get to Dragon Epic (28.5K), while anyone else on the street gets it for 24K. What a great loyalty program.

Really, who runs this company? It's embarrassing. If it was a major company like ARRI or Sony pulling this, there would be serious backlash. And than people wonder why the major companies, and production houses don't take RED seriously. A shame, they have a great product-- terrible PR, and questionable management, to put it mildly.
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Give it a rest, Steve. You've made your point to the point where you are coming off as bitterweed. Just Upgrade, keep status quo, or buy another camera. But let the rest of us celebrate in peace... please!
 
I'm not sure how you can view this so badly. I think it beats selling at the bottom and paying full retail. Would you agree to that Steve?


Also who told you the Dragon Scarlet isn't upgradable? You sound like your just calling out misinformation and its not helpful...
 
Seeing all this at NAB was grt. The global shutter addition amazing. Not sure why 1.5 stop eaten away by shutter?
more important was feeling sad at arri booth :(( alexa looked more like an industrial grade camera and really think Red should cater to cinematographers more with an optical view finder with a real proper shutter and uncompressed let the camera be 70k us dollars but stay as good as alexa studio. We must give industry what they r use to, proper view finder etc shutter so future is Red
 
Jamshed Mahmood said:
Hey what about 6k for 6k??
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That was probably meant for a 60 fps framerate. New ASIC to get up to 100 fps is probably what changed that to 6k for $9500. Just my guess.
 
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