Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

Man, all of the complaining... I just shot a short at ISO 1600 on my EPIC and I was blown away at how clean it was relative to the ISO. Go shoot something and upgrade when ever you really have to... If you have to... Your still not watching stuff at 5k any way or shooting the next hobbit film so I think you'll survive...

RED Team, loving all the new accessories, very exciting!
 
Anyone from RED can tell us what Redcode setting the current media can handle with the Dragon?
 
Steven. We get it. You hate the upgrade. You dislike RED's business practices. You feel like your camera that makes beautiful pictures somehow stopped working since they made the announcement. What is the need to keep going at it? You're trying to get a revolution of people to follow you and stand against RED? Obviously that is not the general feeling I see from people answering to your posts. Not on Reduser anyway, so why keep beating a dead horse? (insert hilarious dead horse emoticon that someone posted recently).

Sell your Red. Move to Blackmagic if that's the right tool for you, and be happy, and I mean that in a good way. If that is truly the right choice for you then do it. Sure it sucks that you may have to take a loss, but feeling angry or disappointed about it is mostly harming you, and for some reason you feel the need to bring others with you.
 
I'm so totally with the Fireman on this - expand on it! Why not give us something temporally with this new upgrade that NO OTHER CAMERA CAN DO as well as all the great resolution and DR stuff? Imagine being able to shoot a step print track as well as a normal frame rate track? For shooting with flash this could be incredible (See a demo of something like this here: http://redrazorfilms.com/Lingerie - this temporal track use of something very similar to HDRX would give us a new "in camera" special effects tool that can be used for all kinds of creative applications.

Multitrack recording that has different relative frame rates and shutter speeds that comes out of your already impressive HDRX work would be .... CRAZY. But then again, so was the RED ONE... ;)

Our Epics are going in for upgrade! Yay! Super excited!

Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Keep it; yea, more, expand it! I *still* want proper bracketing in stills mode. As in plus & minus several stops.

Get creative! You saw that welding helmet with the crazy real time HDR? Play with that a bit... when you're not wedded to traditional cinema 24fps / 180 shutter, you can use the speed of Dragon to have all kinds of fun... HDRx is two track... why not allow FOUR tracks, for permissible shutter / frame rate / data rate combos? Why not have base exposure, HDR +4 stops, +8stops, -4 stops - all running at once, for special effects and scientific jobs?

Don't kill it. Why would you ever throw away a tool out of the box?

Mike
Click to expand...
 
Brian Merlen said:
I'm not sure how you can view this so badly. I think it beats selling at the bottom and paying full retail. Would you agree to that Steve?

Also who told you the Dragon Scarlet isn't upgradable? You sound like your just calling out misinformation and its not helpful...
Click to expand...

I could be wrong on the Dragon Scarlet not being upgradeable, I thought i saw it on an earlier post. As a rule of thumb you don't offer a buy back program for a product you're currently selling at a dramatic price difference.

Everyone is being brain washed into thinking you need something better than the 4k/5k camera you currently own. Scarlet camera is awesome, and is worth a hell of a lot more than $5K. That's based on what else is on the market. There's no way an Epic Dragon is worth 5 Scarlets, which is what RED is telling you when they give you 5k back for your Scarlet, towards a 24k camera... sorry, you can't even tell the difference between 2k and 4k, nevermind 4k and 6k. this is hype to separate you from your money. ARRI went to NAB and laughed at 4K-- they showed their 2K images on a 4K screen vs RED and everyone else's 4k/5K. Guess who's 2k image was better?

if you can't make a good film with the Scarlet or the Epic with the current frame rates- you need a new profession. Nobody can tell the difference. Especially RED who are now selling a sensor when no one has ever seen a moving image from it.

If you guys can't see this for what it is-- a seemingly desperate move, to try to convince people to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get an upgraded camera they don't need. Why you may ask? Because RED knows that there's tough 4k competition coming in the sub 10k market. They want out of the Indie, small production house business.. They want to take on ARRI in the $30k - 40K range to convince major studios to get behind them. How else can you explain that there cheapest new camera being released will be the Dragon Scarlet at 17, plus accessories = 22k. That's expensive.

Keep your money for now. the new sensor isn't going to get you new jobs, or better rental rates. it will be something cool to say for a year or two before everyone else catches up, but that's it. RED had their chance to get us behind them with a reasonable upgrade program and they snubbed their noses at us. They said they'd let Scarlet owners trade in the Scarlets at the original price to buy into Epic Dragon. Now they're saying the Scarlet trade in value is only 5K.

Save your money for a rainy day fund. 10k is a ton of money. you'll thank me in 2015. For the little guys like us- RED priced us out of the game here. Except they're not concentrating on getting the bigger fish. I think they'll fail again at it, like they did in 2010, but if that's their dream, than so be it. Don't chase the butterfly-- be happy with your camera-- go out and shoot. That's what i'm doing today.

SD

p.s. don't be surprised if your RED Scarlet in 2014 makes more money renting out at $200 a day than Epic Dragon at $500 a day. People are going to want the cheap 4k option, and you'll feel like a jackass coming down to a $200 rental on an Epic Dragon. Don't sell your Scarlets back to RED!! if you're dying to get the Epic Dragon-- buy it new.
 
Last edited:
O.K., I figure I've waited long enough so there are a lot of people in line after my first upgrade, so I decided to go ahead and get in line for my second camera upgrade. My thinking is that even if I have to borrow the money to pay for the second upgrade, I can likely get a better rate now than I can later when the Fed's Quantitative Easing money gets into the economy and ramps up inflation and therefore, interest rates. I'm going to get the loan for as many months as I can because I suspect like back in the Jimmy Carter era, everything is going to get wild.
 
How does it make sense that we pay $31K-$40K (or whatever that higher price was for a while) for an Epic-X with MX sensor in the last year, plus $3K for Armor warranty, and now we'd spend $9,500 for the Dragon upgrade and our Armor is void and we're left with only a 90 day warranty? We have to shell out another $3K for Armor warranty again (if it's even offered) and we haven't even gotten through any of the original Armor? Where is the logic in this?

This factory upgrade should come with a 1 year warranty on the sensor and ASICs. If Armor exists on the camera it should continue on the camera and new sensor. This is the only thing that makes sense if Red is truly going to stand behind their new sensor and electronics and their technicians work to upgrade the cameras.
 
Mike Halper said:
First, I just noticed all the pricing on the store just changed (compared to pricing on Sunday night/Monday). Epic-M Dragon went back up in price and Epic-X Dragon is gone. So was the initial pricing a mistake, did Red change their mind on the pricing, or is that future pricing that we should expect the prices (and $ value) to drop again soon? I'll admit I really felt like crap when I saw the price of new Dragon cameras on Sunday night and the upgrade price. The pricing on the store now make me feel a little better now.

Second, how does it make sense that we pay $31K-$40K (or whatever that higher price was for a while) for an Epic-X with MX sensor in the last year, plus $3K for Armor warranty, and now we'd spend $9,500 for the Dragon upgrade and our Armor is void and we're left with only a 90 day warranty? We have to shell out another $3K for Armor warranty again (if it's even offered) and we haven't even gotten through any of the original Armor? Where is the logic in this?

This factory upgrade should come with a 1 year warranty on the sensor and ASICs. If Armor exists on the camera it should continue on the camera and new sensor. This is the only thing that makes sense if Red is truly going to stand behind their new sensor and electronics and their technicians work to upgrade the cameras.
Click to expand...

Agree the sensor warranty isn't very re-assuring. 90 days on an expensive NEW PARTS upgrade? Glad I've got two cameras in case one of them fails.
 
Mike Halper said:
This factory upgrade should come with a 1 year warranty on the sensor and ASICs. If Armor exists on the camera it should continue on the camera and new sensor. This is the only thing that makes sense if Red is truly going to stand behind their new sensor and electronics and their technicians work to upgrade the cameras.
Click to expand...

+1.
 
Eric Haase said:
Is there a red armour for the Dragon? Can one buy Red Armour for the Epic now if it is out of warranty?
Click to expand...

Eric, not that I've heard of. In fact, those who have Red Armour are finding it doesn't cover the new sensor. They offer a 2 year warranty on the new Rocket and a 90 day on the sensor upgrade? What do they know?
 
If the sensor warranty is only going to be 90 days on a $10,000 purchase I'm definitely not upgrading and am considering getting out of the Red business. That is ridiculous and absurd. The sensor is untested in the field, unproven, and for all we know they'll all crap out after 3 months of use and then there goes $10K down the drain. We can spend less money now for a new camera with Dragon sensor and longer warranty than I did a year ago. I understand technology advances, prices and value drops, but when we're shelling out another $10K and have essentially spent nearly double what people can spend now for a new one our warranty shouldn't be eliminated. It's disappointing that Red would do this to their customers.
 
The warranty should transfer just like it should when you buy someones camera. When youre spending this kind of cash on gear it should have good warranties. Red's warranty policies are the worst Ive ever seen from anyone and hopefully they realize this problem.

This is pro gear, it should be covered like pro gear.
 
A 90 day warranty definitely gives one pause on such a pricey (albeit probably worth it) upgrade.
I can't read through 62 pages to find out if Red has commented on the warranty issue. Have they?
 
What about low light sensitivity? Native 2000 ISO? Are we gaining any stops in dark situations? Perhaps less of a need to use High Speed Lenses?

Jarred Land said:
Dragon Specs....

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]SENSOR[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]19 MEGAPIXEL DRAGON[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PIXEL ARRAY[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6144 (h) x 3160 (v)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]S/N RATIO[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]80db[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]DYNAMIC RANGE[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]16.5+ stops ( assuming a 13.5+ stop rating on Epic-X )[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MAX IMAGE AREA[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6144 (h) x 3160 (v)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]Sensor Size ( Active )[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]30.7mm (h) x 15.8 mm (v) x 34.5 mm (d)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"][/TD]
[TD="class: td5"][/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]ACQUISITION FORMATS[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6K RAW (2:1, 2.4:1)
5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)
4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
1080p RGB (16:9)
720p RGB (16:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PROJECT FRAME RATES[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 47.96, 48, 50, 59.94 fps, all resolutions[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PROGRAM OUTPUT[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]HD-SDI Clean Feed
2K RGB, 1080p RGB or 4:2:2, 720p 4:2:2
SMPTE Timecode, HANC Metadata, 24-bit 48Khz Audio[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MONITOR OUTPUT[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]HD-SDI and HDMI with Frame Guides and Look Around
2K RGB, 1080p RGB or 4:2:2, 720p RGB or 4:2:2
SMPTE Timecode, HANC Metadata, 24-bit 48Khz Audio[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]DIGITAL MEDIA REDMAG (SSD)[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]64, 128, 256, 512GB Media[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]REDCODE™ 12 and 16-bit RAW[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-100 fps, 6K 2.4:1
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K
1-150 fps 4K
1-200 fps 3K
1-300 fps 2K[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]AUDIO[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]2 channel, uncompressed, 24 bit, 48kHz
Optional 4 channel, and AES / EBU digital audio[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MONITORING OPTIONS[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]RED LCD 5" Touchscreen Display, RED LCD 9" Touchscreen Display, RED LCD 7" Hi-Brite Display, BOMB EVF™ High Definition Viewfinder[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]REMOTE CONTROL[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Wireless, Ethernet, RS232, GPI Trigger[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"][/TD]
[TD="class: td5"][/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]TEMPERATURE RANGES[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Operating Range: 0˚C to +40˚C (32˚F to 104˚F)
Storage Range: -20˚C to +50˚C (-4˚F to 122˚F)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
 
I'm interested to see what the blue channel is like on Dragon... It'd be pretty sweet if it did some kind of tungsten compensation, rather than just gaining the blue channel to balance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top