NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

[Ivan Kovax]

yeah totally, that would absolutely be the payoff for me. making someone re-think their bias. Inception.

Much prefer that they can judge me on the quality of my work rather than I judge them on their bias.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.

OK pal let's look at numbers:

I paid $17k for a Red One. I paid $10k for a Stage 3 upgrade to EPIC. I'm about to pay $10k again for an upgrade to Dragon.

That makes $37k if you're mathematically challenged.

If I walk in off the street next week I can buy Dragon for $29k

In other words I've effectively had cutting-edge camera tech for several years for the difference; $8k...

Even my granny could make her money back many times over on that deal. I'm still not sure how RED made any money on it!

Defence rests.

Mike

 

[Sergio Perez]

One day i decided to do a test.

I put a 1/4 low contrast filter in front in from of my samyang/rokinon 35mm lens on my Epic. I shot an interview, softened the curves up a touch, then I showed some established DP friends of mine about the footage. I told them I shot the footage using an Alexa with Cooke s4i. They told me how good it looked. They said, this is why Epic has fallen out of favour with DPs. Look at the rolloff and the creamy skintones. I didn't have the heart to tell them my trickery.

Since that day I keep my 1/4 lowcon filter handy, and that curve I can load up with an instant's notice.

My point? Not trying to be argumentative. Just an amusing POV on "instant sex".

And Redgamma 2, right?

 

[Paul Hazlett]

I am hoping that the omission of 5khd is just a mistake.....hopefully

 

[Ivan Kovax]

And Redgamma 2, right?

What else?

 

[Laco Zamba]

OK pal let's look at numbers:

I paid $17k for a Red One. I paid $10k for a Stage 3 upgrade to EPIC. I'm about to pay $10k again for an upgrade to Dragon.

That makes $37k if you're mathematically challenged.

If I walk in off the street next week I can buy Dragon for $29k

In other words I've effectively had cutting-edge camera tech for several years for the difference; $8k...

Even my granny could make her money back many times over on that deal. I'm still not sure how RED made any money on it!

Defence rests.

Mike

Agree, but problem is that if you want to keep RED cutting-edge camera tech, you have to pay too often high amount of money for it.
Dragon is coming very soon after Epic-X and making it obsolete.
Rental prices are teribly low, people are looking for cheaper cameras, number of rental companys is growing.
It is not so easy to earn so much money for new model so fast.

 

[steve duncan]

Yeah exactly. Let him wait and have his gear "depreciate" even more while the rest of us are shooting and making bank with a camera that's arguably the most powerful in the world, yet costs 1/5th of its next best competitor LOL

think you may be overestimating the bank-ability of the new RED Dragon.... clients have not been paying much more for Epics here in NYC than for Scarlets. Neither has been flying off the rental shelves. I have access to both, and if I tell a client I'm shooting on the RED, they don't even ask which RED. I think you'll be disappointed if you think clients are going to start paying up for a Dragon Epic. Nobody gives a crap.

As an Epic owner, depending on your circumstance- you may be better off having a backup Scarlet in its place. Something to consider. Again, nobody in the commercial world is going to pay you more because you tell them your new Epic has a cool new sensor in it. The only camera that has cache, that is asked for by name by the bigger agencies is the Alexa, and to a growing extent the Sony... unless it's for shooting an independent film or you're a cinematographer that gets TV spots, and you really need to shoot in higher frame rates, don't waste your money. You're better off with a real nice piece of glass, that you'll be paid on for every shoot.

If you can't make it happen with a RED Epic, than your problem isn't the camera. Low light sort of sucks, but having an extra RED on a shoot, for a bunch of reasons, would be better 90% of the time.

The Scarlet is a bit different... an upgrade is definitely needed. But an avenue to Epic shouldn't cost 10K. And the only way you could give an avenue to Epic for 6K, without pissing off the Epic owners, is to let them upgrade to Dragon for 6K. That's how they originally planned it. It made sense. Then they got crazy, comparing it to the Alexa. You can't compare Arri to RED. Arri has been making cameras for a century. They have a proven record, and real cinematographers, studios, and agencies feel comfortable working with ARRI. And are willing to pay for it. Same with Sony, which is now making serious inroads. RED users can jump up and down talking about 18 stops, 20 stops-- true 6k, etc etc.... nobody cares, sorry to say. speak to any rental house in manhattan, i'm friends with most of them. none of them are going to jump to upgrade to Dragon, because it's not a proven technology, and the difference between an Epic and Scarlet rental is negligible. And as soon as ARRI gets the idea that a new camera is needed to stay ahead of RED, trust me, they'll have it out to all the right places in a few weeks.

the real money for RED is improving on their current loyal followers. Over time that will lead to bigger and better things. In my opinion the best way to do that is keeping every one of their customers happy and coming back. Asking their customers for 10k to upgrade an 8K camera is not a good way to get things moving forward. I think it damaged their credibility to some extent. I don't think it helped either that the company priced out and is taking orders to pre-sell a technology they haven't been able to show anyone. What's the rush?

Upgrading Scarlet's to Epic should be quite easy and the technology has been there for years to do it. If you need to appease Epic owners for offering Scarlet owners the ability to upgrade to Epic for only 6K-- make it so future upgrades are alway 20% less for original Epic owners. It's a perfect solution. But asking Scarlet owners for that much money to upgrade, in my mind is too much. We'll find out on Thursday, but I think the numbers are going to disappoint most Scarlet owners away from choosing Dragon upgrades. And the high price tag of getting to Epic Dragon (19K plus losing your Scarlet), will alienate alot of users. Just my opinion. Plenty of time for RED to surprise everyone. It may be 3 or 4 years, but if RED can move the company forward and keep their loyal owners happy- I think they can grab market share from ARRI and Sony.

SD

 

[Laco Zamba]

...clients have not been paying much more for Epics here in NYC than for Scarlets. Neither has been flying off the rental shelves. I have access to both, and if I tell a client I'm shooting on the RED, they don't even ask which RED. I think you'll be disappointed if you think clients are going to start paying up for a Dragon Epic. ...

...nobody in the commercial world is going to pay you more because you tell them your new Epic has a cool new sensor in it. The only camera that has cache, that is asked for by name by the bigger agencies is the Alexa

Same situation here - Slovakia - Europe :-(

 

[Jannard]

Compare to other companies options...

Jim

Agree, but problem is that if you want to keep RED cutting-edge camera tech, you have to pay too often high amount of money for it.
Dragon is coming very soon after Epic-X and making it obsolete.
Rental prices are teribly low, people are looking for cheaper cameras, number of rental companys is growing.
It is not so easy to earn so much money for new model so fast.

 

[Jannard]

We are quite happy with our market share... and more so now that people are finally realizing that 4K delivery is NOW.

Jim

think you may be overestimating the bank-ability of the new RED Dragon.... clients have not been paying much more for Epics here in NYC than for Scarlets. Neither has been flying off the rental shelves. I have access to both, and if I tell a client I'm shooting on the RED, they don't even ask which RED. I think you'll be disappointed if you think clients are going to start paying up for a Dragon Epic. Nobody gives a crap.

As an Epic owner, depending on your circumstance- you may be better off having a backup Scarlet in its place. Something to consider. Again, nobody in the commercial world is going to pay you more because you tell them your new Epic has a cool new sensor in it. The only camera that has cache, that is asked for by name by the bigger agencies is the Alexa, and to a growing extent the Sony... unless it's for shooting an independent film or you're a cinematographer that gets TV spots, and you really need to shoot in higher frame rates, don't waste your money. You're better off with a real nice piece of glass, that you'll be paid on for every shoot.

If you can't make it happen with a RED Epic, than your problem isn't the camera. Low light sort of sucks, but having an extra RED on a shoot, for a bunch of reasons, would be better 90% of the time.

The Scarlet is a bit different... an upgrade is definitely needed. But an avenue to Epic shouldn't cost 10K. And the only way you could give an avenue to Epic for 6K, without pissing off the Epic owners, is to let them upgrade to Dragon for 6K. That's how they originally planned it. It made sense. Then they got crazy, comparing it to the Alexa. You can't compare Arri to RED. Arri has been making cameras for a century. They have a proven record, and real cinematographers, studios, and agencies feel comfortable working with ARRI. And are willing to pay for it. Same with Sony, which is now making serious inroads. RED users can jump up and down talking about 18 stops, 20 stops-- true 6k, etc etc.... nobody cares, sorry to say. speak to any rental house in manhattan, i'm friends with most of them. none of them are going to jump to upgrade to Dragon, because it's not a proven technology, and the difference between an Epic and Scarlet rental is negligible. And as soon as ARRI gets the idea that a new camera is needed to stay ahead of RED, trust me, they'll have it out to all the right places in a few weeks.

the real money for RED is improving on their current loyal followers. Over time that will lead to bigger and better things. In my opinion the best way to do that is keeping every one of their customers happy and coming back. Asking their customers for 10k to upgrade an 8K camera is not a good way to get things moving forward. I think it damaged their credibility to some extent. I don't think it helped either that the company priced out and is taking orders to pre-sell a technology they haven't been able to show anyone. What's the rush?

Upgrading Scarlet's to Epic should be quite easy and the technology has been there for years to do it. If you need to appease Epic owners for offering Scarlet owners the ability to upgrade to Epic for only 6K-- make it so future upgrades are alway 20% less for original Epic owners. It's a perfect solution. But asking Scarlet owners for that much money to upgrade, in my mind is too much. We'll find out on Thursday, but I think the numbers are going to disappoint most Scarlet owners away from choosing Dragon upgrades. And the high price tag of getting to Epic Dragon (19K plus losing your Scarlet), will alienate alot of users. Just my opinion. Plenty of time for RED to surprise everyone. It may be 3 or 4 years, but if RED can move the company forward and keep their loyal owners happy- I think they can grab market share from ARRI and Sony.

SD

 

[Rick Darge]

What does future proof mean to Red? What future? What happens when we have 10k displays Jim?

 

[Ryan Sauve]

Hey Jim, I don't know how to get a hold of you but can you look into my 5 RMAs? Would be nice for you to get involved at this point. Just go ahead and delete this post when you read it.

 

[Jeremy Saville]

You're completely right, Jim. I have bought and sold so mant expensive cameras over the years and NOBODY ever offered an upgrade on their cameras. I lost plenty on resale. I will upgrade Scarlet and be incredibly thankful that RED gives me that opportunity. More than worth it. And it's an investment in the ecosystem as well. I like the company that invests in it's community and listens to it. Where else can you communicate with the CEO of a major camera company like this? I highly doubt the head of Arri or Sony would even take the time to listen to your complaints on a public forum much less respond to them. I am exceptionally happy to have RED around and even happier to own one of their cameras.

 

[Jannard]

I defy anyone to find a program that compares to this...

Jim

OK pal let's look at numbers:

I paid $17k for a Red One. I paid $10k for a Stage 3 upgrade to EPIC. I'm about to pay $10k again for an upgrade to Dragon.

That makes $37k if you're mathematically challenged.

If I walk in off the street next week I can buy Dragon for $29k

In other words I've effectively had cutting-edge camera tech for several years for the difference; $8k...

Even my granny could make her money back many times over on that deal. I'm still not sure how RED made any money on it!

Defence rests.

Mike

 

[Laco Zamba]

Compare to other companies options...

Jim

That's why I jumped on RED train 5 years ago
I want to stay, but it's harder and harder.
For example: upgrade to Dragon or buy 2 BM 4K cameras for same price?

 

[Ian D]

I defy anyone to find a program that compares to this...

Jim

This is exactly the point, you pay less for a high end camera (compared to the competition) have upgradeability, and place to interact directly with the manufacturer and people are morning over a couple of grand. Lads calm down. I can't afford a new camera or upgrade at the mo so I don't get one no big deal. I'm still impressed with our 4 year old red one mx.

 

[steve duncan]

We are quite happy with our market share... and more so now that people are finally realizing that everything shot on Alexa is not future proof. The world has finally realized that 4K delivery is NOW.

Jim

I think the 4K sales pitch was easy to effectively sell to clients two years ago, with some good response.. now, not so much. With companies like GoPro offering 4K cameras for $400-- the real question comes down to quality. Similar to high thread count sheets. It used to mean something- a 400 thread count sheet, until people start making 1000 thread count sheets with bad cotton. Now the term just doesn't mean much. Alexa knows that-- if they felt a need to placate customers banging on the door for 4K, they'd have a 4K sensor. Nobody is banging on that door.

I think Marc Shipman from ARRI was pretty effective at NAB comparing the Alexa's quality against the 4k competition on a 4K screen. The 4K vs 2k war was already played and lost yrs ago. The big boys, for what reason you want to point to, were willing to pay 20k or 30k more for the 2K Alexa.

When you have thousands of potential buyers like us smaller folk, that are willing to keep pumping money into RED to help you take over the real battle (user base and revenues), why bring the camera costs out of reach here? Who cares if Alexa is the camera to have with the film industry. They're snobs-- if it's not the number of stops, they'll point to sensor configurations, if it's not that, they'll say it's a reliability issue. Let them have their cake. You give us a sub 20K ability to stay in front of Alexa (with reasonable upgrade options), you win.

I think if RED feels that they're going to be heralded as the best digital film camera ever with a new sensor, and Alexa will wave a white flag and kneel down-- and studio executives will push the industry to RED... I just don't think it will happen. Not because you won't technically be better-- but b/c it's not going to change their minds. They'll be tons of other 4K high end options by 2015. But more importantly you may have lost many of us that were hoping to stay in the grand camera upgrade race for costs that weren't out of reach.

It's getting out of reach for me, which means I'm looking for a quality low cast camera in the 9k to 18k realm that will be upgradeable for yrs to come. It could be Black Magic, it could even be Alexa, or Sony.... who knows. But the fact that I'm one of many on this board, that's now going to take a long breather to re-evaluate with RED, should say something.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Will the Scarlet upgrade involve the same hardware that didn't make the final test just like with the MX-sensor?

 

[steve duncan]

Agree, but problem is that if you want to keep RED cutting-edge camera tech, you have to pay too often high amount of money for it.
Dragon is coming very soon after Epic-X and making it obsolete.
Rental prices are teribly low, people are looking for cheaper cameras, number of rental companys is growing.
It is not so easy to earn so much money for new model so fast.

problem is that production budgets have gone way down. and with the lower budgets, nobody is willing to pay high day rates for the REDs. Adorama in NYC is offering the 5DM3 for $65 a day. The only camera consistently getting the $500 plus day rates is the Alexa. And a new 10K sensor isn't going to change that... the only way to afford to stay with RED, with heavy 4K competition looming everywhere, is if RED makes it affordable for us to stay. If not, we're going to get chewed up by all these lower costs 4k cameras. And when clients ask what's the difference between a Black magic 4k camera at 1k a wk, as opposed to 3k a wk for a dragon Epic-- good luck explaining what stops are, and how 4K isn't really the same with all cameras.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Some one here is confusing 4k cameras which CAN NOT output a TRUE 4k finish, with RED's 5k and now DRAGON 6k which output the absolute most pristine 4K Finish available today.


It's about image quality, if a production wants that they only have one camera to go to, and that as of today is ever more the RED Epic DRAGON!!

For all of those that are happy with just good enough and choose the 5D or anything else, Alexa included, and are happy with upscaling the crap out of footage, and also have NO look around form the 4k up to the 6k as Epic Dragon has for post processing and image stabilizing etc. then you can't fight that.


I also want to see Stills pooled form any other camera and printed in what will be the final quality and size output of the Epic Dragon and compare...